Bible condones poisoning yourself with ethanol?

☦Marius☦ said:

Now its a sin to have a wonderful time with friends?

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With drugs... yes.

Jason0047 said:

I fail to see the humor in your not understanding that alcohol is primarily a destructive substance and not a good one.

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I see alcohol in a different way than you do.
It can be harmful, yes.
It can also be used to just drink a glass at dinner (to enhance the foods one is eating)
I agree that we are called to temperance, however, just drinking a glass or two at dinner will not cause most to become drunk.
Therefore, while you do not drink for religious reasons (and I applaud you for doing so), one shouldn’t judge whether people want to drink in moderation. It comes across as judgmental.

Jason0047 said:

With drugs... yes.

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So...what do you think of coffee or tea? Caffeine is a mood altering substance.

I think the OP could have an alcohol intolerance.

I know a few people with that who react badly and feel very bad after alcohol. I've got a food intolerance to something that some alcohol can have in it and for years found I got really bad hangovers (this was before I was a Christian) and other times not so bad. I now know it was because of a food intolerance, not the alcohol. I used to work with someone with an intolerance to Coke as well. It would affect them far worse than alcohol. They would be reasonably normal even after a large amount of alcohol, but one Coke and they would be dancing on tables and off their head.

Now when I accidentally eat something that affects my intolerance I say it feels like a hangover, but in reality its far, far worse than any hangover Ive had from just alcohol. To try to describe what I mean, I'd say its about ten times stronger than a hangover while you have the flu, but I thought thats what everyone had back then. For me, my food intolerance is so much worse than alcohol that I would be happy for what affects me to be banned (and I can argue why it should be) but everyone would say Im crazy.

As others have said, in Jesus day wine was a safer option than water and it was also only weak, maybe 1-2% alcohol or better quality wine for the rich up to 5% alcohol for every day drinking. It wasnt the 10%+ stuff we tend to have these days.

Jason0047 said:

begin

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<J0>Sorry. That is a gross misinterpretation on your part. The Bible is clear that drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Wrong! The gross misinterpretation is someone trying to impose their biases and presuppositions on scripture. There is a huge difference between someone drinking a glass or 2 of wine and a "drunkard."
.....Then there is the matter of the Cana wedding which was a few days before Passover which is in early spring and the grape harvest in Israel was Jun-Sep. There was no way for 1st century Israelites to keep fresh grape juice or grapes for 9 months. You can look up the definition of "methuo" in Strong's or any other Greek resource. As I said I don't know how much good quality grape juice one would have to drink before they could not tell the difference between good quality and poor quality grape juice.
The Greek word for 'drink" is πίνω, πίω, πόω pinō, piō, poō
.....The same argument holds for Jesus' last supper which was at Passover. The wine served at the last supper was fermented alcoholic wine. As with the wedding there was no way for them to have fresh grape juice 9 months after the previous year's grape harvest.

J0 said:

I have run into Christians here who think inappropriate content is not a grievous sin and they do not think Matthew 5:28-30 is in any way related. Are you one of those types of Christians who says inappropriate content is not a grievous sin, too? Or is just the grievous sin of getting drunk (Which is contrary to sound doctrine) one of the few exceptions? Are you biased? Do you drink and get drunk? Do you have people you love who get drunk?

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The subject of inappropriate content is not relevant to the subject of wine

Jason0047 said:

D. Wine, Knowledge, and Our Conscience:

I believe the consumption of alcohol can only be used for medical reasons (like to ease pain, to purify water, etc.). However, the apostle Paul does not tell us to tempt the LORD and drink known poisons for social reasons. For Alcohol is a poison and many Christians today do not realize this fact. In the Old Testament, drinking strong wine (for social reasons) would have been a grievous sin.

Let's say you are enjoying a nice glass of wine at your local restaurant when you are approached by a fellow believer in Christ who says, "I am offended to see you drink that wine." "My brother used to look up to you for spiritual strength and now he has fallen back into alcoholism because of your public drinking here." What should you think, say or do?

Also, let's say a new believer is baptized and becomes a member of your church. While an unbeliever, he continuously abused drugs and alcohol. Upon becoming a Christian, he vowed to the Lord that he would never use drugs or alcohol ever again. The church (of which he is now a member) uses wine as a part of the Lord's Supper. What happens if this person stumbles back into alcoholism because of their use of alcoholic wine in the Lord's supper? What should the elders think, say or do at this point? Should they continue to use alcohol in the Lord's supper knowing it could make more alcoholics to potentially stumble again?

Jesus calls you to pick up your cross and to deny yourself in everything in your life. For we are supposed to be holy and separate from the world and not be associated with the unfruitful works of darkness. We are to dedicate our lives to Jesus in all things for our love for Him. Not out of some sense of legalism, but out of love. Love for God (Jesus) and love for your fellow brother.


E. The 20 Warnings Against Alcohol in the Bible:

20 Warnings That Speak Against
The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or
exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


Passages For the New Testament Saint:

16) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

17) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

18) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

19) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

20) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.
​

Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

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Jason0047 said:

Not true. I have posted quotes from Scripture in the New Testament, as well.

See post #28.

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Okay lets break down those verses:
In 1 Timothy 3:2-3 Its says "Sober minded"

Now according to the KJV encyclopedia
1. Temperate in the use of spiritous liquors; habitually temperate; as a sober man. Live a sober, righteous and godly life.
2. Not intoxicated or overpowered by spiritous liquors; not drunken. The sot may at times be sober.

Notice these two definitions emphasize overuse- Temperance (which means self controlled/ limited), in the second "overpowered", "Drunked" all these are adjectives describing a willful state of submission to alcohol overuse.

1 Timothy 3:8 even specifies "much wine" key word much

1 Timothy 3:11 once again used the word temperate

Temperance, Temperate [Noun] enkrateia from kratos, "strength," occurs in Acts 24:25; Gal 5:23; 2 Pet 1:6 (twice), in all of which it is rendered "temperance;" the RV marg., "self-control" is the preferable rendering, as "temperance" is now limited to one form of self-control; the various powers bestowed by God upon man are capable of abuse; the right use demands the controlling power of the will under the operation of the Spirit of God; in Acts 24:25 the word follows "righteousness," which represents God's claims, self-control being man's response thereto; in 2 Pet 1:6, it follows "knowledge," suggesting that what is learned requires to be put into practice.

As it is perfectly possible for a Christian to drink alcohol with self control, you can be both temperate, and a consumer of wine.

The same goes for the command to Bishops, key word sober "minded". Soberness can also be a synonym for serious, not taking things lightly.

Titus 2:2-3 says not to be "enslaved to much wine" key words enslaved and MUCH

How are any of these things arguing for tee totaling?

If anything they are proving every one else's point in this discussion that one should drink with self control.

Bipolargirl said:

So...what do you think of coffee or tea? Caffeine is a mood altering substance.

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I guess I’m not enjoying a cup of hot tea when I have breakfast, I’m just an out of control drug user.

Fish14 said:

I drank that horrendous, lethal poison for the second time in my life last night. It is ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING! First it felt kind of good, but memorizing that, it was more about losing self-control than being happy. I possibly lost my reputation by sending drunken messages to everyone, in the morning I will see! Or maybe I will stay at home due to hangover. I wish there was a worlwide prohibition for the next thousand years or so because no one needs to drink that anti-life, anti-happiness, Satanic psychoactive narcotic poison. At least 50 000 000 000 life years, or 50 BILLLION, have been lost directly due to this chemical during the history of mankind, and much more because of lost productivity and thus less charity to help poor countries in birth control and food security.

Now why does the Bible have verses such as these:

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine...

Ecclesiastes 9:7
...drink your wine with a joyful heart...

In John 2:3-11, our beloved God turns jarfuls of delicious water into disgusting wine. Why?

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Since the verses permit the responsible consumption of alcohol, by what authority do you call it Satanic?

The effect of alcohol on me is literally like poison.

Perhaps its genetics. That is why I don't drink any of the stuff.

It's poison to a lot of animals as well.

I used to "enjoy" alcohol and would get stupidly drunk but at the time it felt good and funny and I would act stupid with it. I now feel ashamed at what I remember to the point a two glass size bottle of wine remains in my fridge since buying it about 4 months ago. I rarely drink now. I dont see the point of drinking that much that you cant walk, talk or even know what you're doing even though I have been there. I never got real joy from it and the hangovers were horrendous. A glass or two is harmless its when its carried over and inhibitions are lost.

Bipolargirl said:

I see alcohol in a different way than you do.
It can be harmful, yes.
It can also be used to just drink a glass at dinner (to enhance the foods one is eating)
I agree that we are called to temperance, however, just drinking a glass or two at dinner will not cause most to become drunk.
Therefore, while you do not drink for religious reasons (and I applaud you for doing so), one shouldn’t judge whether people want to drink in moderation. It comes across as judgmental.

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Well, I used to think a Christian could drink for social reasons (as long as they did not get drunk), but after discovering how alcohol is technically a drug and it is a mild poison that instantly seeks to attack your immune system, and it can cause addiction (that can easily lead to drunkenness), I cannot in good conscience condone the use of it for anyone. So while it may appear to be harmless for many, it's destruction is far more reaching beyond what you and many can see.

Scripture commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13) (1 Peter 4:7) (1 Timothy 3:2) (1 Timothy 3:11) (Titus 1:8) (Titus 2:2) (Titus 2:4) (Titus 2:6) (Titus 2:12) (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8).

After the first glass of wine, one is less sober minded than they were before. Even your own State (you live in) recognizes that just one glass of alcohol is enough to impair judgment to a certain degree while driving. Your reaction time is slowed. You are less sober minded (Which is a violation of Scripture).

Paul even warns that drunkenness is the type of sin that will cause someone to not inherit the Kingdom of God, too (Galatians 5:21).

At what fine line do we determine what is drunk in God's view? When I used to drink (Which was really rare and every once in a blue moon), I remember one time I ended up just drinking one white Russian with my friends (at the time). I was only one third of the way through it and I was feeling really warm and a bit out of control. I am an averaged sized person, too. So does one experiment in getting too close to drunkenness or in getting drunk before they decide not to get that close? In a case like this, I would have to keep toying around with being close to drunkenness to figure out that fine line. But what if I already passed it? Is not being buzzed and a little out of control not acceptable to God? Does not God's Word command us to be sober? It sure does. So this is the problem I have with alcohol.

Why do you think they refer to alcohol as spirits?
It's because bad spirits can influence a person by their letting go of control of their mind through alcohol.

Bipolargirl said:

So...what do you think of coffee or tea? Caffeine is a mood altering substance.

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Coffee and tea are actually foods and they are very mild in that they would be a drug. They are not destructive drugs (like alcohol), and they offer nutritional value. They make you more alert and they do not make you less sober minded. Most alcohols consumed today are solely a drug alone and it is not in the category of food (even though it is sold in a grocery store). It used to be a food, but it has been changed into a non-nutritional drug like substance that you can consume in limited amounts. If you consume too much, you can vomit, and loose judgment. A person is far more likely to drink more alcohol because of it's addictive and pleasing effects than say coffee and tea. You are not also going to get into a car and drive drunk and hit a person and destroy their lives by drinking too much coffee and tea. So again. It's not the same thing. It only takes a few glasses of alcohol to destroy your life and the lives of others in an instant. You would need to drink 50-100 cups of coffee before it even became toxic and most people do not feel like drinking more than 3 cups a day without feeling like the coffee is running in their veins.

Der Alter said:

Wrong! The gross misinterpretation is someone trying to impose their biases and presuppositions on scripture. There is a huge difference between someone drinking a glass or 2 of wine and a "drunkard."
.....Then there is the matter of the Cana wedding which was a few days before Passover which is in early spring and the grape harvest in Israel was Jun-Sep. There was no way for 1st century Israelites to keep fresh grape juice or grapes for 9 months. You can look up the definition of "methuo" in Strong's or any other Greek resource. As I said I don't know how much good quality grape juice one would have to drink before they could not tell the difference between good quality and poor quality grape juice.
The Greek word for 'drink" is πίνω, πίω, πόω pinō, piō, poō
.....The same argument holds for Jesus' last supper which was at Passover. The wine served at the last supper was fermented alcoholic wine. As with the wedding there was no way for them to have fresh grape juice 9 months after the previous year's grape harvest.

The subject of inappropriate content is not relevant to the subject of wine

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First, did you not say that those at the wedding feast were drunk?
If so, then why would Jesus contribute to their sin by making them even more drunk?

Second, not that it is applicable to the situation here, but there were ancient ways to preserve and make fresh grape juice according to historical documents. They boiled it or they made it into a paste and stored it in jars in cool temperatures, such as placing it under water. Welch’s was the first person to perfect the idea and popularize it or to turn it into a profitable enterprise.

Three, the Israelites bought, stored, and transported fermented intoxicating wine, but when it came time to drink it for social reasons or to consume with a meal, they mixed it with several parts of water so as to dilute it's strong intoxicating effects.

There are three types of wine mentioned in Scripture:


Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

Revelation 14:10 says,
“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”
(Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

1 Timothy 5:23 says,
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
"She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29). The water is representative of the Scriptures (See Ephesians 5:26). We are told to abide in Christ and abide in His words (See John 15:7).

Isaiah 1:22 CJB
“Your silver is no longer pure, your wine is watered down.”

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to drink it more safely like an Israelite.

So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine to the Israelite.

Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.

To all:

"...the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." (Romans 14:17).

☦Marius☦ said:

Okay lets break down those verses:
In 1 Timothy 3:2-3 Its says "Sober minded"

Now according to the KJV encyclopedia
1. Temperate in the use of spiritous liquors; habitually temperate; as a sober man. Live a sober, righteous and godly life.
2. Not intoxicated or overpowered by spiritous liquors; not drunken. The sot may at times be sober. Notice these two definitions emphasize overuse- Temperance (which means self controlled/ limited), in the second "overpowered", "Drunked" all these are adjectives describing a willful state of submission to alcohol overuse.

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Today's Modern English tends to look at the word "temperate" as doing something in moderation. But back in the day, the word "moderate" primarily meant to be sober or self restrained.

temperate | Origin and meaning of temperate by Online Etymology Dictionary

Also, the online KJV dictionary is taken from: Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language (1828). So this is not an official divinely inspired religious dictionary. It is information taken from a secular dictionary. In regular dictionaries, they offer multiple definitions for a word. They can have different uses. So you cannot quote a regular dictionary with multiple definitions to prove your wrong conclusion in your favoritism towards alcohol.

You said:

1 Timothy 3:8 even specifies "much wine" key word much. The same goes for the command to Bishops, key word sober "minded". Soberness can also be a synonym for serious, not taking things lightly.

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Wine could be used to purify water and or used for medical reasons back then. Wine was also mixed generally with several parts of water so it was lower in alcoholic content. When a person was given to "much wine" it was usually a phrase indicating that they were drinking wine in it's undiluted state whereby it was highly addictive whereby they would want more (and thus be given or addicted to "much wine.").

You said:

1 Timothy 3:11 once again used the word temperate

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The KJV says "sober."

"Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things." (1 Timothy 3:11).

You said:

Temperance, Temperate [Noun] enkrateia from kratos, "strength," occurs in Acts 24:25; Gal 5:23; 2 Pet 1:6 (twice), in all of which it is rendered "temperance;" the RV marg., "self-control" is the preferable rendering, as "temperance" is now limited to one form of self-control; the various powers bestowed by God upon man are capable of abuse; the right use demands the controlling power of the will under the operation of the Spirit of God; in Acts 24:25 the word follows "righteousness," which represents God's claims, self-control being man's response thereto; in 2 Pet 1:6, it follows "knowledge," suggesting that what is learned requires to be put into practice.

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Self control does not denote toying around with something that is sinful thing that is solely a drug that seeks to destroy your body, and not a food.

You said:

As it is perfectly possible for a Christian to drink alcohol with self control, you can be both temperate, and a consumer of wine.

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While it is possible, and in the past, I have done so myself (drinking just 1-2 times per year), the acceptance of alcohol can lead to the possibility of doing more with it (When a person might run into a life challenge, etc.).

Titus 2:2-3 says not to be "enslaved to much wine" key words enslaved and MUCH

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How do you define "not given to much wine"?
Are we talking about the wines of today or the wines back then (that were diluted with water or used as a means to purify water sometimes)? For Paul says to take a little wine for the infirmities of his stomach when he drinks water. The passage also says to be sober. Can you be sober and yet be intoxicated by alcohol?

The Kingdom of God is not meat or drink but joy in the Holy Ghost (Romans 14:17).

Archivist said:

I guess I’m not enjoying a cup of hot tea when I have breakfast, I’m just an out of control drug user.

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You are not going to impair your judgment while driving your car and destroy your life and or the lives others with a cup of tea. However, with just a few glasses of alcohol or a few shots of 151, you can easily do that.

GirdYourLoins said:

I think the OP could have an alcohol intolerance.

I know a few people with that who react badly and feel very bad after alcohol. I've got a food intolerance to something that some alcohol can have in it and for years found I got really bad hangovers (this was before I was a Christian) and other times not so bad. I now know it was because of a food intolerance, not the alcohol. I used to work with someone with an intolerance to Coke as well. It would affect them far worse than alcohol. They would be reasonably normal even after a large amount of alcohol, but one Coke and they would be dancing on tables and off their head.

Now when I accidentally eat something that affects my intolerance I say it feels like a hangover, but in reality its far, far worse than any hangover Ive had from just alcohol. To try to describe what I mean, I'd say its about ten times stronger than a hangover while you have the flu, but I thought thats what everyone had back then. For me, my food intolerance is so much worse than alcohol that I would be happy for what affects me to be banned (and I can argue why it should be) but everyone would say Im crazy.

As others have said, in Jesus day wine was a safer option than water and it was also only weak, maybe 1-2% alcohol or better quality wine for the rich up to 5% alcohol for every day drinking. It wasnt the 10%+ stuff we tend to have these days.

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If they do have an alcohol intolerance, then that would be a blessing.

Jason0047 said:

You are not going to impair your judgment while driving your car and destroy your life and or the lives others with a cup of tea. However, with just a few glasses of alcohol or a few shots of 151, you can easily do that.

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And that is why I and others in this thread have talked about the importance of moderate alcohol consumption. A glass of wine with s meal does not impair your ability to drive.

Jason0047 said:

To all:

"...the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." (Romans 14:17).

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So Christians shouldn’t eat meat?

Jason0047 said:

Coffee and tea are actually foods and they are very mild in that they would be a drug. They are not destructive drugs (like alcohol), and they offer nutritional value. They make you more alert and they do not make you less sober minded. Most alcohols consumed today are solely a drug alone and it is not in the category of food (even though it is sold in a grocery store). It used to be a food, but it has been changed into a non-nutritional drug like substance that you can consume in limited amounts. If you consume too much, you can vomit, and loose judgment. A person is far more likely to drink more alcohol because of it's addictive and pleasing effects than say coffee and tea. You are not also going to get into a car and drive drunk and hit a person and destroy their lives by drinking too much coffee and tea. So again. It's not the same thing. It only takes a few glasses of alcohol to destroy your life and the lives of others in an instant. You would need to drink 50-100 cups of coffee before it even became toxic and most people do not feel like drinking more than 3 cups a day without feeling like the coffee is running in their veins.

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Alcohol is made the same way today as it has been for centuries. The only difference today is that yeast is carefully controlled. During the time of Christ, the yeast that fermented wine was wild. This produced more or less desirable flavors. This is why they spoke of saving the best wine for last. Now, you can pick the best yeast and breed it, as we do with animals.

Please stop making excuses for people. A gun never shot anyone. The devil never made anyone do anything. The way a woman dressed never made a man rape her.

The reason that people drink excessively, or eat themselves to obesity, or make themselves diabetic, or become addicted to inappropriate contentography, or work too much, or cheat on their spouses, or chain smoke, or destroy their marriages with hobbies, or do any of the stupid things they do, is because they are using them to escape their real issues.

They force women to wear burkas in the Middle-East because men can't help themselves. You can't ban the symptoms of problems because it doesn't solve the actual problem. People can go to the beach without assaulting a woman. People can have a soda without becoming a diabetic. People can eat fast food without getting heart disease. If you are abusing alcohol, you are at fault.