Bible condones poisoning yourself with ethanol?

☦Marius☦

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Six Biblical Reasons Why Jesus's Miracle Was Unfermented Wine (Fresh Grape Juice):

In fact, if Jesus made alcoholic wine He would have broken Scripture in a number of places and he would have encouraged future generations of alcoholics to have the green light that it is okay to drink (Whereby they would slip back into drinking themselves to death). Anyways, here are 6 reasons in the Bible that make it absolutely clear that Jesus could not have made intoxicating wine.

#1. Jesus's Pure Blood is likened to the Pure Wine that He made.
Jesus's blood washes away our sins. Scripture says the life of the flesh is in the blood. Jesus says He is the bread of life and that we are to eat of his flesh and blood. Jesus is life. However, alcohol is not a product of life but it is a picture or symbol of death because it is a byproduct of death and not life. This is why Christ made grape juice because it was a pure juice and it was worthy of reflecting his glory in Him being the perfect, sinless Son of God. "Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape."(Deuteronomy 32:14).

#2. Woe unto him that gives his neighbor strong drink.
"Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also," (Habakkuk 2:15). If Jesus gave strong drink to his fellow neighbors here, he would be under the woe of Habakkuk 2:15. This would not be a blessing for Jesus but it would be a curse if he were to disobey this part of Scripture.

#3. Jesus is a King (And wine is not for kings).
Jesus is a king and Jesus would not have ignored his own sage advice or wisdom within His Word that says "it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink" (Proverbs 31:4 KJV); And the very Scriptures themselves are a testimony of Jesus: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39 KJV). So if this verse is true, I want you explain how Proverbs 31:4 is a testimony of Jesus Christ.

#4. Warnings against Alcohol.
Wine is a mocker (Proverbs 20:1). Strong drink is raging (Proverbs 20:1). Whoever is deceived by it is not wise (Proverbs 20:1). Wine bites like a serpent and stings like an adder (Proverbs 23:32). Do not look upon wine when it is red in the cup and when it moves itself aright (Proverbs 23:31). You have not eaten bread, neither have you drunk wine or strong drink: that you might know that I am the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy 29:6). Who has woe? who has sorrow? who has contentions? who has babbling? who has wounds without cause? who has redness of eyes? (Proverbs 23:29). They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. (Proverbs 23:30).

#5. If Jesus did get people drunk (It would be a sin) & They would no longer be Sober.

Jesus could not have made alcoholic wine because John chapter 2 says, that the people at the wedding were "well drunk" (John 2:10 KJV). This means that they had already had drank a good amount of wine already and would have been either tipsy or close to being tipsy (at the very least). Jesus creating more good wine (i.e. good wine supposedly meaning that it was stronger in alcoholic content) would have contributed to the intoxication of those at the wedding party. This means that if they were not sober before, Jesus creating even more stronger alcoholic wine would have definitely made them at least tipsy or with having a mind that was not sober. This is a direct violation of Scripture that commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV). So were they sober at the wedding or not? Also, Paul even warns that drunkenness is the type of sin that will cause someone to not inherit the Kingdom of God, too (Galatians 5:21).

#6. Christ set a good example by His miracle.
The public creation of alcoholic wine would also contradict Romans chapter 14 that tells us that you are not to do anything to make your brother to stumble. For verse 21 says, "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything whereby thy brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak" (Romans 14:21 KJV). For a public wedding of drinking and the writing down of that event is like a giant billboard sign declaring to Christians who have struggled with alcoholism and have put it away could then think that it is okay to drink again (when their conscience condemns it and or because they are horribly addicted to it). This would be the same thing as a Christian drinking in front of an alcoholic (knowing they are an alcoholic); For if a Christian were to do so, they could make this alcoholic stumble back into alcoholism again. Which would be evil. For Romans 14 says, "Let not then your good be evil spoken of" (Romans 14:16 KJV). Jesus knows there are alcoholics who would read John chapter 2. Such a stamp of approval on alcohol could easily send them back into alcoholism. This would be evil.​

Therefore, Jesus did not create alcoholic wine as a part of His miracle in John 2; And nor did He even drink the Biblical wine that OT saints drank which was mixed with water and lower in alcoholic content. Jesus drank with his disciples of the fruit of the vine at the Last Supper. The fruit of the vine is what the Scriptures say He drank (Matthew 26:29). The fruit of the vine is grape juice! --- Not fermented intoxicating alcohol! That would be like calling an orange smoothie drink in being like the fruit of the orange!

This is just totally not true. See my post #62 on the six biblical reasons why Christ did not make fermented intoxicating alcoholic wine.

A few of your points (especially the first) make no sense whatsoever. Your first point is based on the assumption that communion is not literally the body and blood of Christ. And what are you saying? He provided blood to the feast? The rest are warnings against strong drink, and drunkenness (a continual habit, not a solitary state)
 
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No need for that. Der Alter already posted such evidence in post 67.

No he didn't. I can be "well drunk" (satiated) of water but that does not mean I am intoxicated. Note: Yes, I am aware people can be intoxicated by water. But they would have to drink insane amount and it is not as common as alcohol intoxication. Nowhere close.

Also, Der Alter did not address all six points that show that Christ did not make fermented intoxicating alcohol. He is also ignoring 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 that says drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of God, too.
 
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SamanthaAnastasia

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We have somebody who just testified of the bad and ill effects of alcohol. Their last post was that they wanted to almost vomit physically because of their alcohol consumption. Strong intoxicating beverages was never something God wanted His people to ever partake in. Jesus says you will know a tree by it's fruit. While this statement applies to false prophets, I believe you can apply this truth to other things. We can see if alcohol does more harm than good in this life, but people like their drinking so they will come up with the most desperate of ideas or reasons to defend it.
Lol, I don’t like drinking.
Actually, it makes me quite sick to drink more than a normal amount during dinner.
I just think people should drink moderately.
If you say the food and overeating analogy was wrong, then let me suggest this:
You don’t need exercise or watching tv to live. The point is moderation. Too much exercise or tv watching is damaging.
 
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This is just totally not true. See my post #62 on the six biblical reasons why Christ did not make fermented intoxicating alcoholic wine.
Or better yet see post 67, which entirely refutes those six "biblical reasons."
 
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☦Marius☦

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"Paul is not ashamed, and does not blush, after the many and great signs which he had displayed even by a simple word; yet, in writing to Timothy, to bid him take refuge in the healing virtue of wine drinking. Not that to drink wine is shameful. God forbid! For such precepts belong to heretics…
And should you hear any one in the public thoroughfare, or in the midst of the forum, blaspheming God; go up to him and rebuke him; and should it be necessary to inflict blows, spare not to do so. Smite him on the face; strike his mouth; sanctify your hand with the blow, and if any should accuse you, and drag you to the place of justice, follow them thither; and when the judge on the bench calls you to account, say boldly that the man blasphemed the King of angels! For if it be necessary to punish those who blaspheme an earthly king, much more so those who insult God."
St. John Chrysostom. 400s AD
 
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No he didn't. I can be "well drunk" (satiated) of water but that does not mean I am intoxicated. Note: Yes, I am aware people can be intoxicated by water. But they would have to drink insane amount and it is not as common as alcohol intoxication. Nowhere close.

Also, Der Alter did not address all six points that show that Christ did not make fermented intoxicating alcohol. He is also ignore 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 that says drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of God, too.

All six points don't need to be individually addresses. What was said in Post 67 sufficiently refutes all of them. As to 1 Corinthians, that is talking about drunkards. Those in this thread who support the moderate consumption of alcohol have said that drinking to excess is wrong.
 
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Actually moderate consumption of alcohol can have several health benefits.

I was not born yesterday. I am sure most people who try to justify drinking even know this. But what little health benefits it does have, it does far more damage in other ways. The negatives far out weight any positives with deadly and addictive drug (that is not a food).

You said:
I don't consume alcohol to feel either buzzed or drunk or to "fit ion with the other cool cats." I enjoy a glass of wine or a good microbrew beer with a meal. Nothing wrong with that unless you are someone who is inclined to abuse alcohol. In that case you should avoid it entirely.

So, there was never a time in your life where you drank at the end of a day because it was hard? You never said to others that you look forward to a beer or a wine after doing something hard? You never gave in to hanging out with others who drank and had a good time with them? You never boasted about alcohol ever with others?
 
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"Paul is not ashamed, and does not blush, after the many and great signs which he had displayed even by a simple word; yet, in writing to Timothy, to bid him take refuge in the healing virtue of wine drinking. Not that to drink wine is shameful. God forbid! For such precepts belong to heretics…
And should you hear any one in the public thoroughfare, or in the midst of the forum, blaspheming God; go up to him and rebuke him; and should it be necessary to inflict blows, spare not to do so. Smite him on the face; strike his mouth; sanctify your hand with the blow, and if any should accuse you, and drag you to the place of justice, follow them thither; and when the judge on the bench calls you to account, say boldly that the man blasphemed the King of angels! For if it be necessary to punish those who blaspheme an earthly king, much more so those who insult God."
St. John Chrysostom. 400s AD

Yet, Jesus says,

43 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:43-48).​

I am going with Jesus and not that other guy you quoted.
 
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Lol, I don’t like drinking. Actually, it makes me quite sick to drink more than a normal amount during dinner.

It doesn't matter. There are many like yourself who do not like to drink or who have put away alcohol, but they have an unbiblical and unscientific understanding on alcohol. Their viewpoint on alcohol is no different than that of the world's viewpoint on the matter.

You said:
I just think people should drink moderately.

It does not matter what we think. If God's Word condemns it and if scientific facts prove it is more harmful than good for you, then you should preach against it and not preach that it okay.

You said:
If you say the food and overeating analogy was wrong, then let me suggest this:
You don’t need exercise or watching tv to live. The point is moderation. Too much exercise or tv watching is damaging.

Again. No. Not the same thing. You are comparing the consumption of a drug that impairs your judgment immediately and seeks to attack your body immediately to normal every day things that are healthy. The statistics of deaths related to alcohol far out weight any food out there or any intense exercise. There is more bad fruit than any good fruit attached to alcoholic beverages. People are just coloring the facts to say otherwise and they are ignoring the big elephant (the many big problems of alcohol) in the room.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Yet, Jesus says,

43 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:43-48).​

I am going with Jesus and not that other guy you quoted.

This is the same God who told the Jews to stone blasphemers. The same God who whipped people in the temple blaspheming God.

What is God's command? Love the Lord your God first, and Love your neighbor second. Blaspheme is one of the chief affronts to God and should be met with a response.

Its funny you want to quote the New Testament when it suits you and leave out the Old Testament, but then when its about alcohol you do the opposite.
 
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I was not born yesterday. I am sure most people who try to justify drinking even know this. But what little health benefits it does have, it does far more damage in other ways. The negatives far out weight any positives with deadly and addictive drug (that is not a food).

Alcohol in moderate amounts may reduce one's risk of developing and dying from heart disease and reducing the risk of ischemic stroke.

You keep talking about the negatives. Once again, I bam talking about moderate consumption not heavy drinking. As I have said, no one should consume alcohol to excess. Those who are unable to control their consumption should not drink alcohol.

So, there was never a time in your life where you drank at the end of a day because it was hard? You never said to others that you look forward to a beer or a wine after doing something hard? You never gave in to hanging out with others who drank and had a good time with them? You never boasted about alcohol ever with others?

Certainly I have hung out with others who drank. We all enjoyed a glass of wine or beer with our meals and had a wonderful time. No one abused it. I have never boasted about my alcohol consumption or drank at the end of a hard day, unless it was a glass or beer or wine consumed with dinner.
 
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This is the same God who told the Jews to stone blasphemers. The same God who whipped people in the temple blaspheming God.

What is God's command? Love the Lord your God first, and Love your neighbor second. Blaspheme is one of the chief affronts to God and should be met with a response.

Its funny you want to quote the New Testament when it suits you and leave out the Old Testament, but then when its about alcohol you do the opposite.

We are not under the Old Covenant but we are under a New Covenant with new commands. While the Law is good if one uses it lawfully, we are New Covenant believers and not Old Covenant believers. Many of us here are Gentile Christians and we are not a part of Israel or God's nation (By which these laws were originally given). We follow Jesus now, and not Moses.
 
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Alcohol in moderate amounts may reduce one's risk of developing and dying from heart disease and reducing the risk of ischemic stroke.

You keep talking about the negatives. Once again, I bam talking about moderate consumption not heavy drinking.

Again, far more damage is done by alcohol than any good that is done by it. Any health benefits is overplayed in light of it's harmful effects. That's like taking one of those experimental drugs that is supposed to help you but you end up having other even worse problems health wise because of it. Then there is the addiction aspect of it, and the leading of others into consuming alcohol (Whereby they cannot control themselves) and thus, they can drink themselves into oblivion or wrap themselves around a tree or another person's car (Thereby taking the lives others). If by some stray chance that my drinking influenced another who was weak (Who did not drink), then I am guilty for encouraging them to a life of destruction.

You said:
Certainly I have hung out with others who drank. We all enjoyed a glass of wine or beer with our meals and had a wonderful time. No one abused it. I have never boasted about my alcohol consumption or drank at the end of a hard day, unless it was a glass or beer or wine consumed with dinner.

Now you are saying you had a wonderful time by alcohol. So you do enjoy it's intoxicating effects. Before you said you did not drink to get a buzz. Yet that is what happens when you enjoy alcohol with others.
 
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☦Marius☦

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We are not under the Old Covenant but we are under a New Covenant with new commands. While the Law is good if one uses it lawfully, we are New Covenant believers and not Old Covenant believers. Many of us here are Gentile Christians and we are not a part of Israel or God's nation (By which these laws were originally given). We follow Jesus now, and not Moses.

Then why are all your anti alcohol quotes from the Old Testament o_O
 
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Again, far more damage is done by alcohol than any good that is done by it. Any health benefits is overplayed in light of it's harmful effects. That's like taking one of those experimental drugs that is supposed to help you but you end up having other even worse problems health wise because of it. Then there is the addiction aspect of it, and the leading of others into consuming alcohol (Whereby they cannot control themselves) and thus, they can drink themselves into oblivion or wrap themselves around a tree or another person's car (Thereby taking the lives others). If by some stray chance that my drinking influenced another who was weak (Who did not drink), then I am guilty for encouraging them to a life of destruction.



Now you are saying you had a wonderful time by alcohol. So you do enjoy it's intoxicating effects. Before you said you did not drink to get a buzz. Yet that is what happens when you enjoy alcohol with others.

Now its a sin to have a wonderful time with friends?
 
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So people drank alcohol for thousands of years without abusing it?

Does anyone really believe Jesus gave people bread? Bread is full of carbs and causes obesity. It is undeniable that low carb diets have been very successful. Am I to believe Jesus tried to lead His flock to gluttony?

Why do churches make the mistake of feeding their flocks booze and carbs???

The bible doesn't mean "bread" when it says "bread." It's actually referring to loaves made of high protein beans. This bread wasn't "bread" as we understand it.


I can't tell is if you're being serious, or just joking around?
 
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Again, far more damage is done by alcohol than any good that is done by it. Any health benefits is overplayed in light of it's harmful effects. That's like taking one of those experimental drugs that is supposed to help you but you end up having other even worse problems health wise because of it.

If you think that you are harmed by it then by all means do not drink.

Then there is the addiction aspect of it, and the leading of others into consuming alcohol (Whereby they cannot control themselves) and thus, they can drink themselves into oblivion or wrap themselves around a tree or another person's car (Thereby taking the lives others). If by some stray chance that my drinking influenced another who was weak (Who did not drink), then I am guilty for encouraging them to a life of destruction.

Do you own a nice house or car? Couldn't that cause another to be envious? Do you serve good food to visitors? Couldn't that cause someone to overeat (gluttony)? Do you earn a good salary? Couldn't that cause someone else to become greedy? Are you or your wife attractive? Couldn't that cause someone else to lust? We are responsible for our own sins, not for the sins of others.

Now you are saying you had a wonderful time by alcohol. So you do enjoy it's intoxicating effects. Before you said you did not drink to get a buzz. Yet that is what happens when you enjoy alcohol with others.

Now you are misstating what I wrote. I did not say that I had a wonderful time "by alcohol." I said that my friends and I "all enjoyed a glass of wine or beer with our meals and had a wonderful time." I did not say that we had a wonderful time because we were buzzed.
 
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It doesn't matter. There are many like yourself who do not like to drink or who have put away alcohol, but they have an unbiblical and unscientific understanding on alcohol. Their viewpoint on alcohol is no different than that of the world's viewpoint on the matter.



It does not matter what we think. If God's Word condemns it and if scientific facts prove it is more harmful than good for you, then you should preach against it and not preach that it okay.



Again. No. Not the same thing. You are comparing the consumption of a drug that impairs your judgment immediately and seeks to attack your body immediately to normal every day things that are healthy. The statistics of deaths related to alcohol far out weight any food out there or any intense exercise. There is more bad fruit than any good fruit attached to alcoholic beverages. People are just coloring the facts to say otherwise and they are ignoring the big elephant (the many big problems of alcohol) in the room.
Lol ok
 
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