The Assurance of Baptism

Tree of Life said:

It appears that it was indeed John's baptism of repentance. Jesus was associating himself with John's movement and was baptized by John. Jesus' baptism into the name of the Triune God was not instituted until after his resurrection during the Great Commission.

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I'm not so sure about that.

Jesus' baptism was different. John recognised that when he said that he ought to be baptised (with a baptism of repentance) by Jesus.

Tree of Life said:

I disagree that the Bible prescribes baptism only for believers. Could you show me a verse that says that the children of believers are not to be baptized?

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Can you show where infants were baptised without having first believed the message of the Gospel?

No one can do this, so we get to suppositions and Roman "traditions".

I'm disinclined to go with Rome on this point, it's nowhere in the Bible..

What is in the Bible is the dedication of infants and children to God. I believe that is Biblical and wonderful to do but I don't see it in any way as taking the place of a believers baptism.

This point is something that is a difference between reformed Baptist and other reformed traditions. I believe someone once said "They didn't go far enough from Catholicism". And this does seem an instance of keeping a Roman tradition that has no biblical basis.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

Are you speaking of the circumcision of the heart by faith?(Romans 2:28-29; Acts 15:7-9; Romans 10:8; Colossians 2:11-13; Philippians 3:3)

Or are you speaking of Christ's crucifixion, death, and resurrection?

Or are you speaking of both? I'm a little unsure what exactly you are referring to brother.

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I am referring to Christ's DeBuaRe

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

We are told that Christ was dead only in the body, his spirit was quickened and preached to those in prison/hell.
1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

His body died and was buried after Crucifixion(John 19:30-42).
His spirit was quickened and lived and went to those in the grave/hell to preach to them(1 Peter 3:18).

His flesh was crucified, his spirit was not.
His flesh was killed, his spirit yet lived.
His body was buried in a tomb, his spirit was quickened and preached to souls in prison.

We see then the likeness of his death that we are baptized into is:
1. Crucifixion of the old man/flesh with Christ who was crucified for our sins(Romans 6:6; John 19:16-19)
2. Being made dead to the flesh with Christ in baptism as Christ was dead(Romans 6:7-8; John 19:30)
3. Burial in water of our bodies as Christ's body was buried bodily(Romans 6:4,5: John 19:38-42)
4. Quickening of the spirit with Christ as Christ's spirit was quickened(Colossians 2:12-13; 1 Peter 3:18, 21)
5. Raised unto a new life as Christ was resurrected unto new life(Romans 6:4-5; Luke 24:5-8)

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To go to Hell one has to be spiritually dead.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

We are told that Christ was dead only in the body, his spirit was quickened and preached to those in prison/hell.
1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

His body died and was buried after Crucifixion(John 19:30-42).
His spirit was quickened and lived and went to those in the grave/hell to preach to them(1 Peter 3:18).

His flesh was crucified, his spirit was not.
His flesh was killed, his spirit yet lived.
His body was buried in a tomb, his spirit was quickened and preached to souls in prison.

We see then the likeness of his death that we are baptized into is:
1. Crucifixion of the old man/flesh with Christ who was crucified for our sins(Romans 6:6; John 19:16-19)
2. Being made dead to the flesh with Christ in baptism as Christ was dead(Romans 6:7-8; John 19:30)
3. Burial in water of our bodies as Christ's body was buried bodily(Romans 6:4,5: John 19:38-42)
4. Quickening of the spirit with Christ as Christ's spirit was quickened(Colossians 2:12-13; 1 Peter 3:18, 21)
5. Raised unto a new life as Christ was resurrected unto new life(Romans 6:4-5; Luke 24:5-8)

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To be quickened means that one has died and has been brought back to life.

Tree of Life said:

There's lots of biblical evidence for this position. I'll just mention two pieces:

1. There is no command to the contrary. In the Old Covenant, the children of believers were included in the covenant and given the covenant sign of circumcision. The first believers in the gospel were Jews. If the New Covenant sign was not supposed to be applied to the children of believers, you would think that someone would have explicitly mentioned this. But there is no command to withhold the New Covenant sign from covenant children. So we should assume that the former precedent still applies.

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That there is no command to the contrary doesn't establish a doctrine. You could justify any kind of behavior on the grounds that the Bible doesn't explicitly command against it.

In the Old Covenant, it was not "the children" who were given the sign of circumcision; it was the specifically the sons. And that is one glaring difference between circumcision and baptism. Circumcision was only for the sons, not for the daughters. Baptism, on the other hand is for both male and female.

The second glaring inaccuracy of your remarks is that you said that circumcision for the children "of believers." Circumcision had nothing to do with faith; you were circumcised if you were physically born to a descendent of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. It was a physical sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. Belief had nothing to do with it. Water baptism is spiritual in its value, but it is not held up anywhere in the NT as a sign and certainly not as a sign of the New Covenant.

Baptism isn’t presented in the Bible as a sign of anything and thus, is not the NT corollary to the sign of circumcision. You are trying to link two things together that have nothing to do with each other.

The covenant formula for the New Testament is the same as the Old Testament. When God established the covenant with Abraham and gave him the covenant sign of circumcision in Genesis 17, he said: "And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you." (Genesis 17:7). Abraham's children are clearly included in the covenant and should be circumcised.

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Again, the rite of circumcision only applied to the physical male descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. It has no NT equivalent. The Abrahamic Covenant and the New Covenant are not equivalent. Gen. 17:7 is not given to the Church. We are not part of the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant is a physical covenant and has only physical blessings. The Church is a heavenly family/body and is under the New Covenant, which is a better covenant with better promises (Heb. 8: 6)

Furthermore, the sign of the New Covenant was given by Jesus in the Lord’s Supper (Luke 22:20; I Cor. 11:25) “This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.”

Peter uses almost identical language when he says in Acts 2: "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” (Acts 2:38-39). Here too the covenant includes the children of believers and so the covenant sign should be applied to them.

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But in Acts 2, the promise Peter is referring to is the Holy Spirit, not baptism. Baptism isn’t covenant sign. Nor is there any mention of it in the NT as being the covenant sign. That is a value that you are artificially assigning to baptism and you do so without the authority of Scripture to support it.

royal priest said:

John Stot,
"The evangelical view is that the sign [baptism] not only signifies the gift [salvation], but seals or pledges it, and pledges it in such a way as to convey not the gift itself, but a title to the gift...
The place and function of circumcision is defined in Romans 4:11 where Abraham is said to have received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. Here it is said that Abraham received two gifts. First, he received justification, acceptance by faith, while he was still uncircumcised. Secondly, he received circumcision as a sign and seal of this righteousness. The righteousness was given him in Genesis 15; its seal in Genesis 17.
Now, what circumcision was to Abraham, Issac, and his descendants, baptism is to us. It is not only the sign of the covenant membership, but a seal or pledge of covenant blessings. Baptism does not convey these blessings to us, but convey to us a right or title to them, so that if and when we truly believe, we inherit the blessings to which baptism has entitled us."

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Water baptism is not the New Testament sign as circumcision was in the OT.

If we think water is just like circumcision was then read verses in the NT where circumcision is mentioned and put water baptism there and see how it sounds.

There is a baptism that saves (1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16 1 Cor 12:13, Galatians 3:27, Romans 6:3) , but this is not water baptism it is rather a baptism into Christ by one Spirit.when we are immersed or baptized into Christ this is a spiritual union with him where Christ is in us and we in him where Christ dwells in our heart by faith , where we put on Christ.

Paul going to the Gentiles said Christ sent him not to baptism but to preach the gospel (1 Cor 1:17,18). That gospel is defined in 1 Cor 15:1-4, and no water baptism is added to it or any other ritual or form or mosaic law or sabbaths or the Lord supper ordinance etc.

The Jewish Christians were still following Johns water baptism for a while and still zealous of the law all through the book of acts and even sacrifices were still done by them in the temple (Acts 21:17-26). They needed to have a full understanding or else their conscience could not have the knowledge and they would feel as if they were sinning to go against the conscience. Jesus said he had many things to say and to judge if the but they needed the Holy Ghost to lead them into all truth. They did begin to grow and learn if these things as we see through Paul’s work and Peters words in Acts 15 and all over.

The old covenant was fading away slowly and ready to vanish (Hebrews 8:13) and God allowed a time transition or reformation for them (Hebrews 9:9,10).

Jesus told them at the beginning of Acts 1 that John baptised (past tense) with water but they should be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Johns water baptism was a type and for Israel and he was still under the law, we see a similar type in the crossing of the Jordan by Israel with the ark and Joshua going in as well through the Jordan river.

Light of the East said:

Not what Christianity taught for 1600 years.

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Christianity isn’t taught correctly today in most places that profess to know Him. The mystery of iniquity doth already work was happening while Christ walked the earth. Many are called but few are chosen. There are numerous Scriptures that Speak of the few that know The Truth. However, there is a day coming when the world at large will know The Truth about Christ. No man can save another man except Christ when He Walked as a man. Everyone Heaven bound must be taught directly from The GodHead. One Faith one God one Baptism.

Pethesedzao said:

I am referring to Christ's DeBuaRe

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Then I agree. That is among the first of the things we have faith in concerning Christ. Faith always comes before baptism.

Pethesedzao said:

To go to Hell one has to be spiritually dead.

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The Spirit does not die at death, it sleeps. All spirits in the grave are not dead, they are just sleeping. It is the body alone that dies at the first death.


1.

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1. The body was formed from dust and breath was put into it.
2. Then man became a living soul. It was not the body that became a living soul(being combined with the breath) it was man who became a living soul within the body. It is not something seen or tangible it is simply the essence of man’s being, no man has power to touch the soul(Matt 10:28)
   

Lev 17:11,14, blood is the life of all flesh. Oxygen(brought by the breath of life) is the component needed for the blood to live and flow throughout the body. It is blood and oxygen that make up the two main components for bodily life. These are the same things every living creature possess today, blood and breath. Without one the other is useless. Does this mean every animal today is a living soul as we are(it should be noted that animals also have conscious thought)? If they are the same can animals be granted eternal life or eternal damnation? Why or why not? Or is there something more to our nature?


2. When a man dies the first death he rests in the grave(Acts 2:27-31,1 Peter 3:18-19, 2 Peter 2:4 ,Psalm 16:10 ,Acts 2:27, Job 17:13-16; Job 14:10-12; Psalms 139:8;Job 21:26-30 and his thoughts cease, and he has no more part in anything done under the sun. (Psalms 146:4, Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10, Psalms 6:5; Psalms 115:17)

3.
Nephesh 5315
any, thyself, them your-selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing,

From naphash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) -- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.


Strongs Concordance-5590. psuché
soul, life, self
from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul


Thayer’s greek Lexicon
C.the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death

(Matt 10:28, Revelation 6:9, Revelation 20:4, , Acts 2:27, 31)


We see from looking at the definition of the words being used we see that the body and the soul are two separate things. The soul as described by nephesh in genesis 2:7 is a living soul which is different from its use in Genesis 1:20,21,24 which is simply described as a living creature(animal). Both animals and Humans are said to have a spirit and breath(Ecclesiastes 3:19-21; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Job 27:3) but only man is said to have a soul that remains and sleeps after death(Matt 10:28; Revelation 6:9; Daniel 12:2; Acts 2:27-31,1 Peter 3:18-19, 2 Peter 2:4 ,Psalm 16:10 ,Acts 2:27) his thoughts cease, and he has no more part in anything done under the sun. (Psalm 146:4, Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, Psalms 6:5). When a man dies his soul/spirit lives on and sleeps in the grave(Matt 9:24, Mark 5:39, Luke 8:52-53, 1 Kings 2:10, Acts 7:60, 1 Cor 15:6, John 5:28-29, Job 7:21, Job 14:10, Daniel 12:2, 1 Thessalonians 4:13). It is referring to an essence that is separate from the body and lives on after death, after the breath of life is given up(1 Sam 28:11-20, 1 Peter 3:18-20, Revelation 6:9-11).



4. The body is composed of two things that give it life, blood and breath. The body/blood returns to the dust of the earth(Genesis 3:19) and the breath returns to God(Ecclesiastes 12:7). It is the body and blood that dies without the spirit/breath of life(james 2:26). The living soul that was created(which is neither body/blood or breath) does not turn into dust neither does it go to the Lord. Instead it sleeps inside the dust of the earth(Daniel 12:2). So when the breath of life leaves the body it is a bodily death(first death Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10) and not a spiritual one as the second death is(second death Revelation 20:14-15).

5. We know from several accounts that the soul is still alive in the grave

John 11:11-14 Death is sleep. When we die we sleep in the grave(matt 27:52; Daniel 12:2) and have the ability to be awoken(Matt 27:52; 1 Samuel 28:11-20) with all our memories. How can a being sleep with it’s memories if it does not exist or if it ceases to exist? And how can it awaken, cry out to the Lord, and then be put back to sleep if it is already dead(Revelation 6:9-11)?

The Lord himself tells us that those who have died in the body are only sleeping, and are not in fact dead.
Luke 8:52
Matt 9:24

This is how he went and preached to the spirits in prison/hell/the grave. Only his body was put to death, his spirit was not.
1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Pethesedzao said:

To be quickened means that one has died and has been brought back to life.

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Died in the flesh and made alive in the spirit. Instead of sleeping in the grave as every other soul did, he was quickened at the moment of bodily death and made able to preach to the other souls in prison/hell/the grave.
Strongs concordance 2227
make alive, give life, quicken.

From the same as zoon and poieo; to (re-)vitalize (literally or figuratively) -- make alive, give life, quicken.

Thayer's greek lexicon
" quickened as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life, 1 Peter 3:18, "

Even just from the definition we see that his spirit did not die. Then also we have Christ's own words about what happens to the soul at death, it does not die but sleeps.
Luke 8:52
Matt 9:24

morse86 said:

That's not what the bible says.



Faith comes first (it's instant, not a long drawn out process). Once saved, always saved.

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Once saved, always saved ? So you think the Last Judgment will be just a charade ?

Posted in error.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

Died in the flesh and made alive in the spirit. Instead of sleeping in the grave as every other soul did, he was quickened at the moment of bodily death and made able to preach to the other souls in prison/hell/the grave.
Strongs concordance 2227
make alive, give life, quicken.

From the same as zoon and poieo; to (re-)vitalize (literally or figuratively) -- make alive, give life, quicken.

Thayer's greek lexicon
" quickened as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life, 1 Peter 3:18, "

Even just from the definition we see that his spirit did not die. Then also we have Christ's own words about what happens to the soul at death, it does not die but sleeps.
Luke 8:52
Matt 9:24

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Jesus preached in Paradise before He descended to Hell. The Spirit brought Him to New Life on Sunday morning.

PaulCyp1 said:

Jesus Christ clearly taught that we must be reborn through water and the Spirit - an obvious reference to the holy sacrifice of Baptism - if we are to be saved.

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Yes. Rightly or wrongly, I see baptism as the seed of the new person we are to grow into, to increasingly become - at the expense of the 'natural man', afflicted by the fall from grace of Adam and Eve. If I am correct, then Our Lady would not have needed to be baptised.

paul becke said:

Yes. Rightly or wrongly, I see baptism as the seed of the new person we are to grow into, to increasingly become - at the expense of the 'natural man', afflicted by the fall from grace of Adam and Eve. If I am correct, then Our Lady would not have needed to be baptised.

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Water baptism does not save anyone

Pethesedzao said:

Jesus preached in Paradise before He descended to Hell. The Spirit brought Him to New Life on Sunday morning.

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Paradise is in hell/the grave. It is the abode of the pious souls in hell.
3857 Pardesious
paradise.

Of Oriental origin (compare pardec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise") -- paradise.

Thayer's greek lexicon
3. that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43,


Christ did not first ascend into heaven, but first went down into the grave/hell to preach to those in Paradise(abode of pious souls) and to preach to those in prison(abode of non pious souls).

When Christ died he did not first go to heaven he went to sheol/the grave.

1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Ephesians 4:9-10
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)




We know that he didn’t ascend until mid or late morning on sunday because he appeared to Mary after she left his grave and still had yet to ascend.

John 20:16-17

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


After speaking with her he ascended and then reappeared to the disciples and told them to touch him.(John 20:19-28). So it is obvious that Christ first went down to preach to the souls in Prison/hell as is shown clearly in the bible.

Tree of Life said:

Why do you think Jesus included baptism in the Great Commission?

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He included it as the first of two ordinances that He gave to the Church, namely baptism and communion. Baptism symbolizes the inward change of one who has been born again. We are now dead to sin but raised in Christ to walk in newness of life. Furthermore, it speaks to our future bodily resurrection.

Nothing in the Great Commission states that it was to be a sign of the New Covenant. Your position doesn't have any actual biblical support. All you seem to be able to do is try infer things that are simply not in the text.

paul becke said:

Once saved, always saved ? So you think the Last Judgment will be just a charade ?

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The last judgement (Rev. 20: 11-15) isn't for believers, but only for those died outside of Christ. Christians have passed from judgment into life (John 5:24). When we are born again, we are judged righteous and are placed in legal right standing with God. It's called "Justification by Faith" which is the cardinal doctrine of the book of Romans.