Demons - real or not?

Micah 6:6 With what shall I come before the Lord, And bow myself before the High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, With calves a year old? 7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God.

Cis.jd said:

i understand you think God will forgive them, but the argument is the fallacy of god being a loving and just god when he allows people who have done atrocities like that to enter heaven because they accepted christ. While good people who didn't believe in Jesus immediately go to hell.

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Well, then, your argument is not with me, or any other person that believes the scriptures. Your argument is with the Creator and author of this universe.

Your version of "a good person" contains non believers.. who are good people. These people, according to scripture and the direct words of our savior... are..... not...... saved.

The biblical version of saved.. is "any person" who accepts that they are a sinner and asks for salvation based on the work of Christ on the cross.

Cis.jd said:

Additionally you are so absorbed in defending this fallacy that you can't even see the basis of the argument. This is all about the case of an intermediate state before heaven and hell, and how this old theology supports and shows rationality to God's attributes of being just and righteous. Because this intermediate state (Purgatory in other words) is that second chance for those non-believers to accept christ and for those sinners to pay for their sins. Not instantly get a free pass or just get damned.

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You can not defend your position without scripture.. Do you have any?

Cis.jd said:

In the Bible we see an intermediate state when Jesus talks about the unpardonable sin which is not forgiven even in the next life(Matt 12:32)

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This is not talking about a second chance that people will receive after they die.

Cis.jd said:

- so logically there is a time during this next life in where the person gets a chance for forgiveness, and the chance to accept christ.

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This would make "salvation by faith" a lie.. it would contradict scripture. Once you have died and see the glory of God and meet Jesus.. your belief would no longer be by faith.. It would be by knowledge.

Both parables in Luke 12:16–21 and Luke 16:19–31 contradict the idea known as postmortem evangelism (PME).

Here is some snip from: https://www.equip.org/article/is-there-salvation-after-death/


In Revelation20:11–15, John recorded a vision of the judgment before the great white throne, where “the dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books” (v.12). The clear message again is that judgment is based on our earthly lives.

Cis.jd said:

We also see another aspect in where the person has to pay the last penny (Matt 5:26).

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In this verse, Christ is teaching about what people.. on earth.. should do and will face. Applied to life after death.. the person would never get out.. as we can never pay the debt to the everlast farthing because that would mean death. We cannot pay our debt.

Look at the parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:21-35. Look at the debt that he owed.. It was more money that he would earn in his entire life.. This is the debt that we owe.. it is more than we will ever have.. and thus, will never be able to pay it.

Cis.jd said:

Hence he does not sweep sins under the rug, he will justify what you have done to others. We also have verses in just believing in Jesus doesn't get you into heaven (matt 19:24, Matt 7:21).

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I don't see how these verses are relevant.. The "eye of a needle is a type of gate in the middle east. It is small and a camel has a hard time going through it. A rich man will have a very hard time being humble and submitting to Christ.. so.. it is hard for him to enter heaven.. Not impossible.. difficult.

Cis.jd said:

All of that shows that even non-believers can go to heaven, because in the next life they are finally introduced to God himself. Now in connection to this thread, demons, I use this scriptural basis to formulate my theory that maybe demons are also the spirits of people who refused to go to heaven. People who just misotheistic, for whatever reasons (they were born in poverty and angry at god for allow it, he didn't do anything when the Nazi shoved his/her family in the oven.. whatever). So since they are not in heaven, and in his presence (which is our source of life), their souls eventually get corrupted hence becoming demonic -- this part is a theory at the end.

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I have seen no scripture that teaches anything contrary to the biblical truth that you must have faith and "believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" to be saved.

I have never been taught or heard a sermon or even had people in any discussion on Christ and salvation... ever... ever... ever talk about salvation for unbelievers..

If unbelievers were able to achieve life in heaven.. then the whole work of Christ on the cross was a waste of time...

This idea makes a mockery of the gospel message.

Francis Drake said:

That's strange, cos I thought Jesus said the opposite.-
Matt18v2Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. 3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.…

According to you, entry to Heaven requires an adult theologically trained mind, but maybe Jesus just got it wrong.

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So, what I posted, is "adult theology"?

Even if I have said in a way that you believe children could not understand it... it is certainly not "opposite" to what Christ said.

Maybe This:
Let me make it simpler... You cannot get to heaven unless you believe in Christ, admit that you are a sinner, accept that you can do nothing of your own power to pay for your sins, believe that Christ died for your sins and paid the price, ask for this gift of salvation.

Should of been said like this:

You cannot go to heaven unless you believe in Jesus, tell him that you know you were bad, tell Him that you believe in what He did at Easter, and ask Him to let you into heaven...

I think that my kids understood the text in green above.. But.. some may need a simpler version.

JacksBratt said:

Well, then, your argument is not with me, or any other person that believes the scriptures. Your argument is with the Creator and author of this universe.

Your version of "a good person" contains non believers.. who are good people. These people, according to scripture and the direct words of our savior... are..... not...... saved.

The biblical version of saved.. is "any person" who accepts that they are a sinner and asks for salvation based on the work of Christ on the cross.

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My argument is with you because from what I view that is of scripture: God is not a cruel or unjust God as to what you (don't realize) have describing. The reason why I have probably been aggressive in tone is because I think your views are not just wrong but it is the reason why we had christians fall into atheism.

It is a portrayal of a dark, evil, and insecure god who created life for his own selfish purposes -- which is to submit and worship him. This is the same nature of the god of Islam. The god islam doesn't care if you are a good person because to him, it's all about worshiping him. Anybody would get turned off by this god even if he was true. It's dictator like and not father like.

You can not defend your position without scripture.. Do you have any?

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I have defended it. You being a Trinitarian and a believer in the NT canon should also recognize that not all scriptural truths are explained are immediately defined in one verse.

This is not talking about a second chance that people will receive after they die.

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It is, because you have "the next life" referenced. Apparently there is an unpardonable sin and it is not forgiven in the next life which logically would not be referenced if there was an immediate result after death.

This would make "salvation by faith" a lie.. it would contradict scripture. Once you have died and see the glory of God and meet Jesus.. your belief would no longer be by faith.. It would be by knowledge.

Both parables in Luke 12:16–21 and Luke 16:19–31 contradict the idea known as postmortem evangelism (PME).

Here is some snip from: https://www.equip.org/article/is-there-salvation-after-death/

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Nope it does not. We are now entering the doctrine of justification, which is faith and works. You yourself admitted this indirectly when I was referencing the christians of the Salem Witch trials in where believing in Jesus makes you do good. In other words there are actions demanded. You were also given the verse with Jesus and the rich man who believed and followed all the laws yet was told by Jesus that he had to "give to the poor" as the missing thing to enter salvation.
Those verses in Luke have nothing to do in support of your case. Because at the end, Jesus stated a next life in where one specific sin is still not forgiven.

Revelation20:11–15...
In this verse, Christ is teaching about what people.. on earth.. should do and will face. Applied to life after death.. the person would never get out.. as we can never pay the debt to the everlast farthing because that would mean death. We cannot pay our debt.

Look at the parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:21-35. Look at the debt that he owed.. It was more money that he would earn in his entire life.. This is the debt that we owe.. it is more than we will ever have.. and thus, will never be able to pay it.

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You are giving more verses in support to me. Rev 20:11-15 even says. The dead where judged. The sea and much more Hades gave them up and they all went to be judge. These people where dead already, they were not in heaven or in hell.. so you can see they don't just immediately shoot up.
It says "they where judge ACCORDINGLY to what they have done". So it shoots down your entire argument about how doing good doesn't matter if you don't believe. If God just sends people to heaven on the sole basis of accepting him, then what is the purpose of judging anyway? If they are all nonbelievers, then why is there a chance that this book may or may not have their names in it.. Automatically it should not, hence making it redundant to judge accordingly to what they did.

Now paste this revelation along with the verses I gave, especially the quoted part in where you just go "no scripture". This all shows you that God is not a conceited, self-centered God.. he will judge fairly as shown in that Rev 20:11-15.

Cis.jd said:

I'm not here talking back at god, i'm talking back at what I think is false imagery of god. I don't think he is unjust, vain, insecure, and that self-absorbed.

The whole line of "we are human, he is god.. we can't understand" is an argment people have used to compensate or rationalize their arguments. If i used a different god such as Shiva, Zeus, in the same context as to how YHWH/Jesus is being used in the quotes I am arguing with, you see that as evil and that whole "well, who are we to say when he is god" will not be rational.

There is no way any god can be seen as good, just, and holy under the descriptions i've been arguing about.

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So what are you proposing that your image of God will do?

JacksBratt said:

So, what I posted, is "adult theology"?

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All your requirements for entry to heaven are adult intellect based and and completely contrary to what Jesus said about being like a child.

Even if I have said in a way that you believe children could not understand it... it is certainly not "opposite" to what Christ said.

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Yes it is!

Maybe This:
Let me make it simpler... You cannot get to heaven unless you believe in Christ, admit that you are a sinner, accept that you can do nothing of your own power to pay for your sins, believe that Christ died for your sins and paid the price, ask for this gift of salvation.

Should of been said like this:

You cannot go to heaven unless you believe in Jesus, tell him that you know you were bad, tell Him that you believe in what He did at Easter, and ask Him to let you into heaven...

I think that my kids understood the text in green above.. But.. some may need a simpler version.

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These are requirements for joining your church, not what Jesus required of little children to enter heaven.

RDKirk said:

So what are you proposing that your image of God will do?

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I believe God will give people a chance to atone and justify the sins of others. He will answer the pains of the people that have been hurt by the person standing before him, and deliver the justice they deserve. He will set things right and at the same time give that mercy towards those who didn't believe in him and experience the needed justice with out it being a "forever type of suffering in hell". I think Hell is for those like Hitler, Pol Pot, Jeff Dhamer, Child Sex workers, all those high level forms of evil. It is the death penalty.

Cis.jd said:

I believe God will give people a chance to atone and justify the sins of others. He will answer the pains of the people that have been hurt by the person standing before him, and deliver the justice they deserve. He will set things right and at the same time give that mercy towards those who didn't believe in him and experience the needed justice with out it being a "forever type of suffering in hell". I think Hell is for those like Hitler, Pol Pot, Jeff Dhamer, Child Sex workers, all those high level forms of evil. It is the death penalty.

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What if there is someone who didn't do anything particularly "evil"--but who refuses to have any God sovereign over him?

Second, what's the scripture to back up what you think God will do?

Francis Drake said:

All your requirements for entry to heaven are adult intellect based and and completely contrary to what Jesus said about being like a child.

Yes it is!

These are requirements for joining your church, not what Jesus required of little children to enter heaven.

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What then, if I am "opposite" to Christ's teaching, is the method of gaining salvation?

Coming to Faith, like a child is.. well I cannot say it any better than Billy Graham.. so here: (from What did Jesus mean when He said we have to become like a little child if we're going to follow Him?)


Jesus’ words about our need to become like little children are important, however. (You can find them in Mark 10:15.) One of the main reasons people reject Jesus is pride; they believe they don’t need Him and can make it through life on their own. But only when we renounce our pride and come to Him with the humility and trust of a child can we be saved.


Don’t let your pride, or anything else, keep you from Christ. Instead, humble yourself before Him, and trust your life completely to Him. Then commit all you are and all you have into His hands, for He alone is “the way and the truth and the life” (John 14:6).

But, hey, what is the requirements for salvation from you point of view?

RDKirk said:

What if there is someone who didn't do anything particularly "evil"--but who refuses to have any God sovereign over him?

Second, what's the scripture to back up what you think God will do?

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That was on earlier topic on the discussion of demons and ghosts, if they are fallen angels or the spirits of these people who refused to go to heaven (or in their state of purgatory or hell).

In terms of scripture, that Revelation and matt verses that were referenced..

Cis.jd said:

I believe God will give people a chance to atone and justify the sins of others. He will answer the pains of the people that have been hurt by the person standing before him, and deliver the justice they deserve. He will set things right and at the same time give that mercy towards those who didn't believe in him and experience the needed justice with out it being a "forever type of suffering in hell". I think Hell is for those like Hitler, Pol Pot, Jeff Dhamer, Child Sex workers, all those high level forms of evil. It is the death penalty.

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Then, why did He leave His place in Glory.. take on the form of a human.. as a baby.. live a very tough life, suffer and die on the cross and rise again?

Why?

How do you apply non believers being saved when we read this:

Romans 10:9-10 King James Version (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Acts 16:30-31 King James Version (KJV)
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.



I am telling you the truth: he who believes has eternal life. (John 6:47)

Isaiah 57:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee.

Cis.jd said:

My argument is with you because from what I view that is of scripture: God is not a cruel or unjust God as to what you (don't realize) have describing. The reason why I have probably been aggressive in tone is because I think your views are not just wrong but it is the reason why we had christians fall into atheism.

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I understand why you argue with me. It is because you, and understandably so, as well as many people believe, God should be letting all the nice people into heaven and the mean evil and violent people who hurt others should go to hell...

You also believe that there should be punishment for these atrocious evil hurtful sins such as the holocaust, serial killers, ISIS, kidnappers, and any other violent or physiologically damaging assaults against other humans.

When I say that God will forgive these human pieces of excrement, you bach and say that God must not be loving... especially when the victims can go to hell if they don't believe in Christ.

This short circuits our logical and moral brains. It sends up flags and we cry foul.

Hey, I get it. However, we need to realize that we have finite human minds and God is All Knowing, All Powerful and Ever present. He is not confined to our limited knowledge and intelligence.

He tells us that "all" sins are forgiven (Yes, except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit).

The best example of this is Saul of Tarsus. This man, a Jewish leader and well educated in the law of that time, hated Christians. He was feared by them and systematically murdered them. That was his goal.. end this new fanatic following of Christ, who's teaching was a blight to the existing religious paradigm.

Yet, this murderous evil hearted man, who was running wild in Israel, was saved and went on to be one of the most famous and honored writers of the NT.

He is even called Saint Paul.

So, in the end, it doesn't matter what we think is right or just. God is the judge and has the final say. He and only He will know the heart of each human and deem if they are righteous and can enter heaven. Not us.

Nobody, in the end, will be shouting, that wasn't fair. We will all see and know everything and understand why.

Cis.jd said:

It is a portrayal of a dark, evil, and insecure god who created life for his own selfish purposes -- which is to submit and worship him. This is the same nature of the god of Islam. The god islam doesn't care if you are a good person because to him, it's all about worshiping him. Anybody would get turned off by this god even if he was true. It's dictator like and not father like.

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Well, God does say:

Exodus 34:14 New International Version (NIV)
14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

He is not "insecure". Not by a long shot. He could say a word and all space and time would vanish in a millisecond.

Think of it this way.. You have a baby, you raise it, you care for it, you put it though all the schooling and pay for it's entire life.. then.. this child, who you love and cared for.. turns to a rock and says to other people.. "this lump of rock is my Dad and I love it for all it's done for me" When they ask about you.. the child says "who are you talking about.. that's a myth, I don't know what or who you are talking about. This rock has given me everything". The child shuns an contact with you and treats you like you don't even exist....

Are you being "insecure" for the pain that it causes you?

God created mankind for fellowship, relationship and, yes, worship and honor that He is very much worthy of.

So, those that deny Him, Shun Him, speak against Him and mock His existence... are not going to spend eternity with Him.

Why would anyone who denies God's existence, denies the existence of Hell, denies the existence of heaven, ridicule God's worthiness of worship and honor, mock His followers... even want to, then, spend eternity in His house?

Cis.jd said:

I have defended it. You being a Trinitarian and a believer in the NT canon should also recognize that not all scriptural truths are explained are immediately defined in one verse.

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Yes I do... yet you have not given solid bible based scripture that supports your view that unbelievers can acquire salvation based on being good people.

Where I have given numerous scripture and commentary that support the well documented and biblical sound truth that anyone, anywhere, with any past sin, can receive salvation. AND, anyone that refuses to accept the fact that God is God and Christ was Christ... will not receive salvation... no matter how good they think they are or YOU think they are. No matter how deserving we think they are of eternal life...denial of Christ is not going to end well for their soul.

Cis.jd said:

It is, because you have "the next life" referenced. Apparently there is an unpardonable sin and it is not forgiven in the next life which logically would not be referenced if there was an immediate result after death.

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Yes, we looked at the scripture surrounding that idea. This is not talking of a second chance for unbelievers, when they die, to be saved. Although, many will lean on this as if it was their one and only hope for salvation...

Why is it that we are so concerned about a "second chance" after death?
God has made it so easy for us to believe and gain an undeniable salvation here before death.

Yet, it seems to me.. that there are those that deny Christ here, doubt that there is a God, or down right deny that there is a God and if there is...He is evil, selfish and cruel....all the time with it in the back of their mind that IF they are wrong.. they will pull out this ACE in their sleeve and get in the back door.

That is not Biblical nor is it just or righteous.

That's like YOU waiting in a line at a door crasher sale for the new I-Phone.. all night, in freezing weather and wind and snow, with no coat on..and when door opens, some random person just pulls up in their BMW SUV double parks and walks up and goes in ahead of you.

The only problem with this scenario is that our life on earth is near as hard as the person I described as waiting in line...


In fact... achieving salvation is simple. So simple a child can do it.

The reason people don't ask for salvation is PRIDE. They are so proud but in the end they want the cookie that they say doesn't exist.

Cis.jd said:

Nope it does not. We are now entering the doctrine of justification, which is faith and works. You yourself admitted this indirectly when I was referencing the christians of the Salem Witch trials in where believing in Jesus makes you do good. In other words there are actions demanded. You were also given the verse with Jesus and the rich man who believed and followed all the laws yet was told by Jesus that he had to "give to the poor" as the missing thing to enter salvation.
Those verses in Luke have nothing to do in support of your case. Because at the end, Jesus stated a next life in where one specific sin is still not forgiven.

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Are you referring to this? Mark 10:17-31

In this story Jesus is speaking to a man who claims that he has kept every commandment.. yet when Jesus tell him to give up all of his earthly wealth, the man cannot.

There are many very good commentaries on this scripture. I'm not going to post any here.

The man lists the commandments that he has kept and deems himself to be without flaw. Yet, we know, that ALL have sinned. So, Jesus is loving and just points out one flaw..

That is that he holds his wealth in a way that is a god or idol to him. He cannot give up this fortune even for eternal life.
Other views are that this man got his wealth through corrupt ways.. the list goes on.

However, in the end, this is not a passage of scripture that teaches that giving to charity is going to save you.

Cis.jd said:

You are giving more verses in support to me. Rev 20:11-15 even says. The dead where judged. The sea and much more Hades gave them up and they all went to be judge. These people where dead already, they were not in heaven or in hell.. so you can see they don't just immediately shoot up.

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We are told, in scripture, that all believers of all time will be "caught up". Those dead believers will rise first and then all the living believers. Ignoring all the argument as to when this happens.. we are certain that it does happen.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 King James Version (KJV)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Who does that leave behind... but the unbelievers of all time.

These are those that will face the great white throne judgement at the end of time.

It is my belief after reading numerous commentary on this topic.. that none of those facing this white throne judgement, will be found written in the Lambs book of Life. None will achieve eternal life.

EXCEPT.. those who live after the event in the above scripture, whenever that is.. People who live after will consist of believers and non believers.. so the believers who live after would face this judgement and achieve eternal life.


Where these unbelievers exist now.. is the subject of much debate.. Some say they are asleep, as are the believers.. some say they are in a type of hell and the believers are in Paradise.. which Jesus seems to support when He talks to the thief on the cross.

Either way, this does not support a "Second chance" for those who deny God in any way shape or form.

Cis.jd said:

It says "they where judge ACCORDINGLY to what they have done". So it shoots down your entire argument about how doing good doesn't matter if you don't believe. If God just sends people to heaven on the sole basis of accepting him, then what is the purpose of judging anyway? If they are all nonbelievers, then why is there a chance that this book may or may not have their names in it.. Automatically it should not, hence making it redundant to judge accordingly to what they did.

Now paste this revelation along with the verses I gave, especially the quoted part in where you just go "no scripture". This all shows you that God is not a conceited, self-centered God.. he will judge fairly as shown in that Rev 20:11-15.

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Again, this scripture is speaking of the non believers. The fact that they are at the white throne judgement confirms that they are already condemned, as I discussed already, and will not receive eternal life is support for the concept that there will be levels of torment in hell.

There is a commentary that does give some more detail that I can full well agree with.

That is the concept that, as has been talked about here before, there are countless thousands that never heard of Christ or lived before Christ and never would have had the opportunity to "Believe" and be saved.

These people cannot be counted as those taken up in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Yet, they never had the opportunity or knowledge of the gospel message.

These will be judged by a just, righteous, merciful and gracious creator, based on what they have done.

Basically, I look at this like a cop pulling you over on a road for speeding, when there was no speed limit.....The cop will look at the road conditions, look at the weather, and how heavy the traffic was.. and determine if you were traveling at a safe and responsible speed based on that.. Then, under the power of the court.. he will ticket you or not.

However, we who have knowledge and lived in a time where the gospel was known and had the choice to accept it or deny it... We are like a person who drives on the road with a speed limit posted and either follow it or ignore it.

WE, have no leg to stand on.

mcarans said:

My new article may be of interest to you both. I propose a new unified view of heaven and hell taking into consideration Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant thought.
A new unified view of heaven and hell

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Thanks, I will read later