What?!
I am going to remove the post #37.........
Are you talking about the thread link or something else?
Link inside the quote. But I see you've deleted that post.
Upvote
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What?!
I am going to remove the post #37.........
Are you talking about the thread link or something else?
Why would Paul have to say this to his followers concerning some saying the resurrection has already happened?
[which doesn't appear to occur until Revelation 20:5 "the first resurrection"?]
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
2Ti 2:18
who about the truth swerve<795>, saying the resurrection/ἀνάστασιν<386> already to have become/γεγονέναι<1096>
and they are subverting<396> the of-some<5100> faith.
become/γεγονέναι<1096>
Speech: Verb Parsing: Perfect Infinitive Active
18
οἵτινες περὶ τὴν ἀλήθειαν ἠστόχησαν, λέγοντες ἀνάστασιν ἤδη γεγονέναι,
καὶ ἀνατρέπουσιν τήν τινων πίστιν.
18
oitineV peri thn alhqeian hstochsan legonteV thn anastasin hdh gegonenai
kai anatrepousin thn tinwn pistin
Revelation 20 shows the Resurrection.
Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead no they live until should be being finished<5055> the thousand years.
This the resurrection/ἀνάστασις <386>, the first.
20:5
οἱ λοιποὶ τῶν νεκρῶν οὐκ ἔζησαν ἄχρι τελεσθῇ1 τὰ χίλια2 ἔτη.
αὕτη ἡ ἀνάστασις ἡ πρώτη.
Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
oi de loipoi twn nekrwn ouk anezhsan ews telesqh ta cilia eth auth h anastasiV h prwth
Byzantine Majority
kai oi loipoi twn nekrwn ouk ezhsan acri telesqh ta cilia eth auth h anastasiV h prwth.
.
"of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, in view of his appearing and his kingdom"
"Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season"
"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."
They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
1 john 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
The resurrection that was being advocated by the Greeks Hymenaeus and Philetus was a spiritual one and not a bodily one
The background to what Greeks believed before they were converted to Christianity within their philosophical circles is that physical matter, in general, is inherently evil and that goodness is not material but spiritual
along with the Preterists of today are preaching is the itchy ears gospel that is absent of self-sacrifice and one that is a feel-good camp who claim to already have been judged righteous by the righteous Judge within this temporal life, before they have even shed their blood (biologically died).
Disagree with you there, though.
Do you disagree that the Preterists believe that the resurrection occurred in 70AD and that they have been already judged righteous within this temporal life and are already in possession of their eternal inheritance (Crown of Life)?
And you appear to be reading a lot of things into 2 Timothy 2:17-18 that are simply not there.
Partial Preterist or Full Preterist build their entire eschatology on 70AD resurrection and 70AD Christ's coming.
Please list the things that you as an alleged partial preterist believe have happened in 70AD and why 70AD? Remember with everything that you think is fulfilled, I need to know what your argument is in it being fulfilled in 70AD.
No, partial preterists do not believe in a 70 AD resurrection or a 70 Second Coming.
If your Doctrine relies on uninspired commentators as it's FIRST line of defense, I suggest your docrtrine is not built upon a very strong foundation.It's "most likely" first because most commentators are on my side, such as John Calvin, Matthew Henry, William Hendriksen, John MacArthur, and (for the Catholics) Fr Raymond Collins.
And second because it's the only interpretation that really makes sense.
[Obviously you and I have not been physically resurrected yet. But Hymenaeus and Philetus seem to have be saying that we have been resurrected already in a spiritual sense
Paul was addressing many different kinds of errors in his epistles. That argument doesn't fly.
Why would Paul have to say this to his followers concerning some saying the resurrection has already happened?
We need to read 2 Timothy 4 to get a better understanding of why it concerned Paul. The resurrection that was being advocated by the Greeks Hymenaeus and Philetus was a spiritual one and not a bodily one and this was undermining the faith because faith requires self-sacrifice of what is hoped for and yet not seen. Since self-preservation would be the mindset of the day if it were merely a spiritual resurrection, then the commission to preach from the Gospel would have self-preservation as the underlying extrinsic motivator and not self-sacrifice as the intrinsic motivator that promises something that cannot be seen nor attained in this temporal life.
Hymenaeus and Philetus who were Greeks seem to be those Greek philosophic teachers who taught that the resurrection is past and that it was a spiritual one, much like how Preterists teach for their 70AD narrative.
Hymenaeus and Philetus were turning away people to Greek Myths.
The Greeks Hymenaeus and Philetus were teaching a resurrection that was spiritual and one that the recipients get to enjoy the blessings without having to make further sacrifices because Christ has made the sacrifice for them and this is the same theology that the Preterists use in opposition to every exegetic argument to the contrary -
Hello. I created a thread over here and thought it may interest you being that your user name is in the title.................I could use your input. ThanksThe destruction of the Temple was hugely significant in that it was the historic signifier that the Old Covenant had vanished and the New had replaced it. Moreover, the destruction of the Temple was a key teaching of Christ,
So when you add that to 1 Cor 15:54-56, which says Paul is speaking about the dead in Hades getting victory over the Law Covenant era, and when you see that 1 Thess 4 is linked to the desecration of the Temple at 2 Thess 2, it all amounts to proof that Paul is speaking of the exit of the OT dead from Hades at the full end of the Old Testamental period in 70AD.
No, partial preterists do not believe in a 70 AD resurrection or a 70 Second Coming.
And in 2 Timothy 2:17-18, Paul is not talking about which things were or were not fulfilled in 70 AD, for the simple reason that 2 Timothy was written many years before 70 AD.
1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
It would be totally off topic, and the way that you make the demand is incredibly rude.
The subject is complex, for resurrection may speak of national restoration (Isa 26:13-14,19-20/ Ez 37), of baptismal regeneration, of the exit from Hades/Sheol, and the final judgment.
Ezekiel 37:11-14
11Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’ ”
Daniel 12:1-3
1“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise (Sign of Jonah). There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
Daniel 12:13
“As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest (biologically die), and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”
Matthew 12:39
He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.”
Just about everyone who studies NT theology knows that a major change took place for the dead back in the first century. In OT times, the dead did *not* ascend, were *not* 'resurrected' from Death and Hades into Heaven but rather were prevented from doing so by the absence of a covenant that cleansed them fully. Moreover, nearly all christian groups admit that a change has occurred for the dead between the OT times and the NT times. What is entirely unclear however is precisely when that change took place. I am making the case that the bible teaches it took place when the Temple was destroyed (Hebrews 9:8) during their "visitation" (Luke 19:40-44), in the days of vengeance (Luke 21:20-22).
The bookend for the Old Covenant Saints being raised is Christ's Parousia mentioned in Daniel 12:1-3 as I had explained in Post #53.
The bookend for the New Covenant Saints being raised is Christ's Parousia mentioned in Zechariah 14:1-3, where he will fight with the many Gentiles who have come to full numbers within the Holy City Jerusalem's very walls (New Testament Church) and who are purged of the Tares within on the Great Day of Battle of God Almighty. In Matthew 24 the Angels are sent to separate the Tares from amongst the Wheat at the end of the New Testament Harvest when the Gentile numbers come to full accountability, that is why half of the Gentiles who represent the Tares are expelled from the Holy City and the remaining Gentile who are the Wheat are kept within the City and remain to serve Christ through their offering of Daily Sacrifices as Living Stones.
The 70AD criteria of the Day of Great Battle depicting the destruction of the literal city of Jerusalem is again untenable from the prophecy of Zechariah 14:1-3, rather what is being highlighted in Zechariah 14:1-3 is that this Holy City is the antithesis to the literal city that is full of Gentile believers who are Christ's as the latter sea spoken in Zechariah 14:8.
So that the allegory depiction of the mount of Olives mentioned in Zechariah 14 consisting of both former and latter sea peoples is depicting two peoples, the Old and the New Covenant saints and in this regard Christ's parousia occurs for the Old Covenant at the sign of Jonah when Michael the chief architect of salvation who symbolises the Messiah is declared as rising up for Daniel's people, as pointing to the sign of Jonah (Daniel 12:1). For the New, Covenant Christ is depicted as fighting on the Great day of Battle against the many Gentile nations who are occupying his fenceless and unfortified Holy City that is infiltrated by Gentile Tares who need to be removed (purged).
Christ's Parousia for the New Testament Church occurs when the Gentiles come to full within the antithesis Jerusalem, the Church and when this occurs it is towards the end of the Harvest when he sends his angels in the four quarters of the earth to separate the Tares from amongst the Wheat. It is certainly not an advent of 70AD eschatology that would exegetically suffice as evidence for Christ's parousia to the New Testament Gentile house.
That being said, I believe that Christ's parousia to the New Testament Gentile Church Jerusalem is future at the advent of Christ removing the Tares within his Holy city. Do you see the picture or not, please stay focused on what is being discussed, because your effort to encourage me to respond to you has brought us here, thanks for this.
It was only the elders of the Old Testament that rose when Jesus rose. Their resurrection day is "the last day:" John 6: "I will raise him up at the last day." The last 24 hour day of the 70th week that will end the age will be at the 7th vial. Please notice that at the 7th vial comes the world's worst earthquake. It will be caused when God raises the saints from the Old Testament, including those God declared righteous before the flood.Yes, I agree that resurrection in the Old Testament was at times used in an allegoric manner to depict a nation rising from the ashes/graves of their fathers before them. Yet we know that much of what was spoken about within the Old Testament, whether known or unbeknownst to the people of that day, was that it entailed a double prophesy that was further elaborated by other Old Testament prophets, as pointing to the Messiah delivering on this promise in one day for the Old Covenant Saints fallen in Hades, that is Christ's Parousia to the Old Covenant Israel, the former sea peoples.
Daniel's prophesy is most telling about Daniel's people of ancient Israel and not modern-day Israel born from a political ideology of the "Greater Israel" political agenda. Believe it or not, prophet Daniel spoke about Christ's Parousia for Daniel's People as follows -
Daniel was told that he would first need to biologically die, then to wait in his Lot in Hades, in expectation of receiving his resurrection at Christ's Parousia, who is depicted as the symbol of Michael rising, meaning it is pointing to the sign of Jonah, Christ's resurrection.
I linked Christ's Parousia in Daniel 12:1-3 to the double prophesy in Ezekiel 37:11-14 and its fulfilment for the Old Covenant House of Israel (Daniel's People) when Jesus said on two separate occasions -
Christ's Parousia for the Old Covenant peoples, the former sea Zechariah spoke off, who were mentioned in Zechariah 14:8.
The evidence of the Old Covenant resurrection came to be fulfilment on time and on prophesy at the sign of Jonah, after Christ's resurrection and here we have the explicit evidence that it was then and not 70AD.
Matthew 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Why would Paul have to say this to his followers concerning some saying the resurrection has already happened?
[which doesn't appear to occur until Revelation 20:5 "the first resurrection"?]
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
2Ti 2:18
who about the truth swerve<795>, saying the resurrection/ἀνάστασιν<386> already to have become/γεγονέναι<1096>
and they are subverting<396> the of-some<5100> faith.
become/γεγονέναι<1096>
Speech: Verb Parsing: Perfect Infinitive Active
.
I think Jesus raised the elders of the Old Testament at that time. Didn't John see 24 elders?What happened to the resurrected saints mentioned in Matthew 27: 52 ...
https://www.ucg.org/bible.../bible.../what-happened-to-the-resurrected-saints-mentione...
Nov 9, 2010 - Why did God raise dead Christians from their graves at the time of Jesus ... and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into ... (In the Bible, the word saints means those who are sanctified or set ...
Matthew 27:53 After Jesus' resurrection, when they had come out of ...
Matthew 27:53 After Jesus' resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.
and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. King James Bible And came out of the graves after his ...
Why would Paul have to say this to his followers concerning some saying the resurrection has already happened?
We need to read 2 Timothy 4 to get a better understanding of why it concerned Paul. The resurrection that was being advocated by the Greeks Hymenaeus and Philetus was a spiritual one and not a bodily one and this was undermining the faith because faith requires self-sacrifice of what is hoped for and yet not seen. Since self-preservation would be the mindset of the day if it were merely a spiritual resurrection, then the commission to preach from the Gospel would have self-preservation as the underlying extrinsic motivator and not self-sacrifice as the intrinsic motivator that promises something that cannot be seen nor attained in this temporal life.
Hymenaeus and Philetus who were Greeks seem to be those Greek philosophic teachers who taught that the resurrection is past and that it was a spiritual one, much like how Preterists teach for their 70AD narrative.
So the theological networkings of the Greeks Hymenaeus and Philetus is a Preterist variation of the resurrection that does not emphasise a bodily resuscitation, whereby the Greek philosophers of their days considered inherently evil.
The sequence for the Lord's appearance is self-sacrifice in preaching the Gospel, biological death, judgement before the righteous Judge, then resurrection in whatever form that is the glorified form, whereby the witness will then claim their eternal inheritance and to receive their Crown of Life.
What the Greeks Hymenaeus and Philetus of the past, along with the Preterists of today are preaching is the itchy ears gospel that is absent of self-sacrifice and one that is a feel-good camp who claim to already have been judged righteous by the righteous Judge within this temporal life, before they have even shed their blood (biologically died).
The Greeks Hymenaeus and Philetus were teaching a resurrection that was spiritual and one that the recipients get to enjoy the blessings without having to make further sacrifices because Christ has made the sacrifice for them and this is the same theology that the Preterists use in opposition to every exegetic argument to the contrary -