Does God allow abortions?

High Fidelity said:

Numbers 5:11-31.

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Wrong.

High Fidelity said:

I forget the book, but I am pretty sure there are literally instructions on how and when to have an abortion in the bible.

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Wrong.

SkyWriting said:

You be the judge:

1 Peter 2:13-17
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

and now:
New York State Assembly Passes Third Trimester Abortion Bill

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Do those laws require people to have abortions? If not, why do you bring up these passages? If the government ever requires me to do an action that clearly violates the Bible's teachings (as abortion would be), I would be obligated to disobey, just as Peter and John disobeyed the Sanhedrin when they required them not to preach Jesus and his resurrection (Acts).

SkyWriting said:

Obeying government takes precedent over the written code in scripture.

1 Timothy 2:1-3
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,

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No it doesn't. You can't use the Bible to justify Murder of babies in the womb. If a law was passed that polygamy was allowed that does not mean Christians are permitted to have multiple marriage partners.

ItIsFinished! said:

Wrong.

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Why is it wrong?

It's instructions for illegitimate children to be aborted.

High Fidelity said:

Why is it wrong?

It's instructions for illegitimate children to be aborted.

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Actually it isn't.

Polygamy is only lawful for Jews and Muslims. Christian's must observe the original plan of monogamy.
As in my previous post I really dont care what scripture says about civil government as it no longer applies to us. We no longer have divinely appointed monarchs just man-appointed representatives. We eliminated God from political appointments, nothing to do with anointed leaders any longer. If the apostles lived today they wouldn't say what they did where people viewed political leaders as divinely anointed and monarchs actually having religious coronations.

SkyWriting said:

We do what is right and vote from our heart and that is the only place God's law is written under the new covenant. There never were any divinely appointed monarchs. That was always a power grab.

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That's nonsense. We vote for our best interests not for what is right. The entire point of Christ as king ties into the fact that a king was a divine appointment who does whats what's best for the Kingdom (the collective whole). Pharoahs were considered deities, The OT kings were the only ones who had the anointing of the Holy Spirit (along with prophets etc) .
Today's form of government is through human agency, God does not play a role, it's an agnostic secular process through voting and appointments based on individual self interests.

High Fidelity said:

Numbers 5:11-31.

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High Fidelity said:

It's instructions for illegitimate children to be aborted.

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That's a common misinterpretation. So common in fact that one edition of the NIV even mistakenly commented that the drink would cause a miscarriage. There is no ground for that however and other additions have not made that mistake. Most commentaries do not think the passage speaks of the Lord causing miscarriage.

The passage simply describes a procedure whereby the husband could determine whether his wife had been unfaithful to him. Nothing at all is said about her turning up pregnant (as in the case of Mary for instance).

The Lord had the priest make up an unpleasant concoction for the woman to drink. If the wife was guilty - she would get sick and her stomach would swell. If she was innocent, then the Lord would keep her from suffering the possible effects of the drink. The fact that her belly might swell says nothing about pregnancy and zeroing in on that fact seems to be what causes people to rush to a wrong conclusion.

The passage does not say that drinking the mixture would cause an abortion/miscarriage. It only speaks of it making the woman sick if she was guilty of adultery.

The Lord has most certainly given us statements in the scriptures which tell us of His killing or ordering the killing of a great many men, women and children throughout history (including babies). This just isn't one of them.

I suppose that if you're anything like me you'll wonder why the Lord does these kind of strange things when (in this case for instance) He could simply write the verdict in the dirt or inform the priest through His Spirit.

Why the casting of lots, marching 7 times around a city, spitting in the dirt and putting it on someone's eyes or any one of dozens of other strange things in the Bible?

Indeed why the whole shooting match of the scriptures? He could have simply produced a Savior through Eve or one of her daughters and died for our sins just outside of the garden.

His ways are most assuredly not our way. But then He undoubtedly has His reasons for doing the things He does.

When I get Him all figured out I'll let you know.

SkyWriting said:

"Hitler" is a common theme used to disrupt civil conversation. Many forums have banned the topic and bringing it up can have the poster banned. Christianforums is much more liberal in it's topic rules.

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Its just an example. Some things the goverments do don't need to be approved by christians or follow it. I don't know where you got the idea that a goverment law replaces God moral values, that is just totally wrong.

buzuxi02 said:

The NT isnt speaking of modern day governments. It only speaks of structures based on monarchies. Monarchs and their appointments were considered divinely appointed. If a monarch or his representative went too far he was labeled a tyrant and the people could rise up and overthrow them . But modern day governments have nothing to do with what scripture spoke of. Our leaders are man appointed. In democracy any idiot can elect any other man. It is man made appointments based on a constutuency doing the work of man.

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The kings given to the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews at their request, as described in the Bible, were divinely appointed. There was no command to obey the Egyptian Pharoah or Nebuchadnezzer. If Moses' mother had obeyed the Egyptian decree, there would have been no Moses. If Joseph and Mary had submitted to Herod, Baby Jesus would have never become an adult.

Christians these days generally are law abiding and supportive of their community, state, and nation, and obey out of a sense of doing things decently and in order. And as long as the law is for the purpose of maintaining decency and keeping order, obeying it is the right thing to do for the good of the whole.

But the government wades into sinful territory when it orders employers or any entities to provide products or services that are against the conscience of the people ordered to provide that. No doctor who believes abortion to be sinful should be forced to perform one for anybody's convenience. No tradesman should be required to provide a product or service or participate in anything that violates his personal conscience or sense of ethics.

As for the heart wrenching choices that sometimes have to be made when it comes to a choice between the mother's life and the unborn child, I would never judge in such cases. That is a decision to be made by the parents, the doctor, and God and the rest of us, including the government, should stay out of it.

SkyWriting said:

Since we are called to treat other people, the same as we'd want them to treat us,
then such positions of discrimination are not valid. Mabe you think Jews should not be served? Or blacks? Or men? Or prison guards?

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I said nothing about discriminating against anybody. So yes, ANYBODY who comes into my shop to buy whatever I have for sale should be able to buy that product. But I should not have to make a special product that would offend me for that same person. I should not be forced to participate in that person's activity that I believe to be wrong.

And within that same principle, if I believe abortion to be wrong, to be a sin, I should not be required to perform one regardless of the race, religion, ethnicity, et al of the person wanting it.