The book of Job.

StevenMerten

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Just curious, how did you conclude the individual in Isaiah is not fallen from heaven?

Also, I'm a little confused as why you say the king of Babylon is ruler over Israel?
Hello jhwatts,
God Ruled over Israel from the Exodus till the fall of Israel (House of Judah) in 587 B.C.. God divorces Israel, sends them out of the Promised Land and into exile, and puts secular power, starting with king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, as Ruler over them. The House of Israel fell in 722 B.C., however, God was still Ruling over Israel through the House of Judah, till she was cast away also. Then God was no longer Ruling over any of Jacob/Israel's descendants, man's evil pride in secular power was, as a punishment for their sins.

Jerimiah 27:4
Tell your masters: Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: It was I who made the earth, and man and beast on the face of the earth, by my great power, with my outstretched arm; and I can give them to whomever I think fit. Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, my servant; even the beasts of the field I have given him for his use. All nations shall serve him and his son and his grandson, until the time of his land, too, shall come. Then it in turn shall serve great nations and mighty kings. Meanwhile, if any nation or kingdom will not serve Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, or will not bend its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, I will punish that nation with sword, famine, and pestilence, says the LORD, until I give them into his hand.
 
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jhwatts

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Hello jhwatts,
God Ruled over Israel from the Exodus till the fall of Israel (House of Judah) in 587 B.C.. God divorces Israel, sends them out of the Promised Land and into exile, and puts secular power, starting with king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, as Ruler over them. The House of Israel fell in 722 B.C., however, God was still Ruling over Israel through the House of Judah, till she was cast away also. Then God was no longer Ruling over any of Jacob/Israel's descendants, man's evil pride in secular power was, as a punishment for their sins.

Jerimiah 27:4
Tell your masters: Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: It was I who made the earth, and man and beast on the face of the earth, by my great power, with my outstretched arm; and I can give them to whomever I think fit. Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, my servant; even the beasts of the field I have given him for his use. All nations shall serve him and his son and his grandson, until the time of his land, too, shall come. Then it in turn shall serve great nations and mighty kings. Meanwhile, if any nation or kingdom will not serve Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, or will not bend its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, I will punish that nation with sword, famine, and pestilence, says the LORD, until I give them into his hand.

StevenMerten,

How do you know Job did not exist before the Exodus?

I'm just trying to understand some things. I hope I'm no bother.
 
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StevenMerten

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Just curious, how did you conclude the individual in Isaiah is not fallen from heaven?

Also, I'm a little confused as why you say the king of Babylon is ruler over Israel?

Lamentations 2:1
How the Lord in his wrath has detested daughter Zion! He has cast down from heaven to earth the glory of Israel, Unmindful of his footstool on the day of his wrath. The Lord has consumed without pity all the dwellings of Jacob; He has torn down in his anger the fortresses of daughter Judah; He has brought to the ground in dishonor her king and her princes.

2 Kings 24:18
The LORD'S anger befell Jerusalem and Judah till he cast them out from his presence.

Hello jhwatts,
In Lamentations 2, we get an image of Israel's glory being cast down from heaven to earth. Israel herself was never in heaven, but she had preferential treatment from God, and is described as being in the Presence of God; which God had actually brought His Presence to earth, and into the temple in Jerusalem. Heaven is actually anywhere God is Present.

After Israel's fall, now king Nebuchadnezzar was God's preferential ruler over Israel and the world. Nebuchadnezzar starts feeling like he is a god, because of all the power God has given him. In Daniel 4, king Nebuchadnezzar had a dream that he was a tree stretching up to heaven. Then the tree is cut down. This again is king Nebuchadnezzar falling from heaven to earth, from earth, which is really his evil human pride, falling from God's preferential treatment, to humiliation.

Both Satan and Babylon fall in the Book of Revelation, as Jesus takes over as King and Ruler of the world, upon victory at the Battle of Armageddon. Why does Babylon fall, in our present day future, at the apocalypse? It is really man's evil human pride which is falling from heaven, earth, from earth, meaning it is actually falling from God's present preferential ruler on earth, to humiliation, as Jesus Christ takes over as King and Ruler of the world.

Nebuchadnezzar, the Prince Tyre, the Pharaoh and his hordes, Satan, Adam and Eve, Israel, they all fall from heaven to earth, from earth. It is their evil human pride which is falling from heaven to earth. It is their evil human pride which is falling out of preference with God.

A 'Morning Star' is really someone who rules over men on earth. It is 'morning star' Nebuchadnezzar, evil human pride which is falling from heaven to earth, from earth.

2 Samuel 23:3
The God of Israel spoke; of me the Rock of Israel said, He that rules over men in justice, that rules in the fear of God, Is like the morning light
at sunrise on a cloudless morning,...

Daniel 4:5
Finally there came before me Daniel, whose name is Belteshazzar after the name of my god, and in whom is the spirit of the holy God. I repeated the dream to him: Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, I know that the spirit of the holy God is in you and no mystery is too difficult for you; tell me the meaning of the visions that I saw in my dream.

'These were the visions I saw while in bed: I saw a tree of great height at the center of the world. It was large and strong, with its top touching the heavens, and it could be seen to the ends of the earth. Its leaves were beautiful and its fruit abundant, providing food for all. Under it the wild beasts found shade, in its branches the birds of the air nested; all men ate of it. In the vision I saw while in bed, a holy sentinel came down from heaven, and cried out:

'Cut down the tree and lop off its branches, strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit; let the beasts flee its shade, and the birds its branches. But leave in the earth its stump and roots, fettered with iron and bronze,

Revelation 20:1 Thousand Year Reign.
Then I saw an angel come down from heaven, holding the key to the abyss and a huge chain in his hand. He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil or Satan, and chained him up for a thousand years. The angel hurled him into the abyss, which he closed and sealed over him.

Revelation 18:1
After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth became illumined by his splendor. He cried out in a mighty voice: 'Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great.'

DAN 4 Continued :
in the grass of the field. Let him be bathed with the dew of heaven; his lot be to eat, among beasts, the grass of the earth. Let his mind be changed from the human; let him be given the sense of a beast, till seven years pass over him. By decree of the sentinels is this decided, by order of the holy ones, this sentence; That all who live may know that the Most High rules over the kingdom of men: He can give it to whom he will, or set over it the lowliest of men.'

This is the dream that I, King Nebuchadnezzar, had. Now, Belteshazzar, tell me its meaning. Although none of the wise men in my kingdom can tell me the meaning, you can, because the spirit of the holy God is in you.

Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was appalled for a while, terrified by his thoughts. 'Belteshazzar', the king said to him, 'let not the dream or its meaning terrify you.' 'My lord', Belteshazzar replied, 'this dream should be for your enemies, and its meaning for your foes. The large, strong tree that you saw, with its top touching the heavens, that could be seen by the whole earth, which had beautiful foliage and abundant fruit, providing food for all, under which the wild beasts lived, and in whose branches the birds of the air dwelt, you are that tree, O king, large and strong! Your majesty has become so great as to touch the heavens,and your rule extends over the whole earth. As for the king's vision of a holy sentinel that came down from heaven and proclaimed: 'Cut down the tree and destroy it, but leave in the earth its stump and roots, fettered with iron and bronze, in the grass of the field; let him be bathed with the dew of heaven, and let his lot be among wild beasts till seven years pass over him'--this is its meaning, O king; this is the sentence which the Most High has passed upon my lord king: You shall be cast out from among men and dwell with wild beasts; you shall be given grass to eat like an ox and be bathed with the dew of heaven; seven years shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules over the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will. The command that the stump and roots of the tree are to be left means that your kingdom shall be preserved for you, once you have learned it is heaven that rules. Therefore, O king, take my advice; atone for your sins by good deeds, and for your misdeeds by kindness to the poor; then your prosperity will be long.'

Ezekiel 31
On the first day of the third month in the eleventh year, the word of the LORD came to me: Son of man, say to Pharaoh, the king of Egypt, and to his hordes: What are you like in your greatness?

Behold, a cypress (cedar) in Lebanon, beautiful of branch, lofty of stature, amid the very clouds lifted its crest. Waters made it grow, the abyss made it flourish, sending its rivers round where it was planted, turning its streams to all the trees of the field.

Thus it grew taller than every other tree of the field, and longer of branch because of the abundant water. In its boughs nested all the birds of the air, under its branches all beasts of the field gave birth, in its shade dwelt numerous peoples of every race. It became beautiful and stately in its spread of foliage, for its roots were turned toward abundant water. The cedars in the garden of God were not its equal, nor could the fir trees match its boughs, Neither were the plane trees like it for branches;no tree in the garden of God matched its beauty. I made it beautiful, with much foliage, the envy of all Eden's trees in the garden of God.

Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because it became lofty in stature, raising its crest among the clouds, and because it became proud in heart at its height, I have handed it over to the mightiest of the nations, which has dealt with it in keeping with its wickedness. I humiliated it. Foreigners, the most ruthless of the nations, cut it down and left it on the mountains. Its foliage was brought low in all the valleys, its branches lay broken in all the ravines of the land, and all the peoples of the land withdrew from its shade, abandoning it.

On its fallen trunk rested all the birds of the air, and by its branches were all the beasts of the field.

Thus no tree may grow lofty in stature or raise its crest among the clouds; no tree fed by water may stand by itself in its loftiness.

For all of them are destined for death, for the land below, For the company of mortals, those who go down into the pit.

Thus says the Lord GOD: On the day he went down to the nether world I made the abyss close up over him; I stopped its streams so that the deep waters were held back. I cast gloom over Lebanon because of him, so that all the trees in the land drooped on his account. At the crash of his fall I made the nations rock, when I cast him down to the nether world with those who go down into the pit. In the land below, all Eden's trees were consoled, Lebanon's choice and best, all that were fed by water. They too have come down with him to the nether world, to those slain by the sword; those who dwelt in his shade are dispersed among the nations.Which was your equal in glory or size among the trees of Eden? Yet you have been brought down with the trees of Eden to the land below. You shall lie with the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword. Such are Pharaoh and all his hordes, says the Lord GOD.

 
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JackRT

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The Book of Job is widely regarded as the oldest book of the Bible and there is evidence of similar stories in the cultures of that region. It is not a literal history but a sort of extended parable attempting to speak against a particular understanding of that time.
 
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StevenMerten

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StevenMerten,

How do you know Job did not exist before the Exodus?

I'm just trying to understand some things. I hope I'm no bother.

I think the Book of Job is an allagory about the Rise, Fall and Restoration of Israel. It is like one of Jesus' Parables, it did not really happen, Job represents Israel.
 
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StevenMerten

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StevenMerten,

How do you know Job did not exist before the Exodus?

I'm just trying to understand some things. I hope I'm no bother.
Hello jhwatts,
Any thoughts on my post 43? You are not bothering me. I like to discuss.
 
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jhwatts

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Hello jhwatts,
Any thoughts on my post 43? You are not bothering me. I like to discuss.

Sorry for the delay in my response. I pretty sick at the moment.

I was looking at Ezekiel 31:3 and noticed the translation does not include the word Assyrian. Thats important in that it connects Lucifer and his fall to the Garden of Eden. See Isaiah 14:25, Ezekiel 28:13, and Genesis 2:14 and leads me to believe it was a real fall. Eden was near Assyria.

My personal view is that angels can take the form of a man and Lucifer a fallen angle has taken the form of a man as the King of Tyre. Those rulers still today accept the idea that they will return in the form of a man again.

Saddam -- Babylon's Last Dictator

There are other places that seem to indicate that certain divine beings. Look at Isaiah 47:3. This verse reads as if God can take the form of man anytime. He took the form of man more than once.. See Proverbs 8: (22-36). Christ was walking here on earth from the very beginning.

There are other places that seem to indicate certain spiritual beings are remade. Another good example is Elijah and John the Baptist.

But anyways, I think the fall here is a physical being who had a throne on earth and was physically cast down trying to ascend to heaven to take God's throne.


One last thing. Consider the use of morning star in Job (Job 38:7) and the conversations with Satan and God.
 
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StevenMerten

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Sorry for the delay in my response. I pretty sick at the moment.

I was looking at Ezekiel 31:3 and noticed the translation does not include the word Assyrian. Thats important in that it connects Lucifer and his fall to the Garden of Eden. See Isaiah 14:25, Ezekiel 28:13, and Genesis 2:14 and leads me to believe it was a real fall. Eden was near Assyria.

My personal view is that angels can take the form of a man and Lucifer a fallen angle has taken the form of a man as the King of Tyre. Those rulers still today accept the idea that they will return in the form of a man again.

Saddam -- Babylon's Last Dictator

There are other places that seem to indicate that certain divine beings. Look at Isaiah 47:3. This verse reads as if God can take the form of man anytime. He took the form of man more than once.. See Proverbs 8: (22-36). Christ was walking here on earth from the very beginning.

There are other places that seem to indicate certain spiritual beings are remade. Another good example is Elijah and John the Baptist.

But anyways, I think the fall here is a physical being who had a throne on earth and was physically cast down trying to ascend to heaven to take God's throne.


One last thing. Consider the use of morning star in Job (Job 38:7) and the conversations with Satan and God.

Hello JH,
I hope and pray you get well.

Well, my thinking is quite a bit different from your understandings.

First of all, you do agree that even Jesus Calls Himself "I am the Root and Offspring of David, the Morning Star shining bright." (REV 22). In 2 Samuel, God describes why a person is a 'morning light', it is because they rule over men on earth. As people guided themselves by the stars, especially ships at sea, so were world rulers considered 'morning stars'. Does Jesus or God the Father really need angels enforcing, or enacting, laws, guiding the Saints, in heaven? I do not think so. Jesus calling Himself 'Morning Star' refers to future Messianic Reign, on earth.

The name 'Lucifer', like the term 'morning star' is a
neutral (neither bad nor good) term. Lucifer is simply another term for neutral term, 'morning star'. Technically, even Jesus is a 'lucifer', which means 'Morning Star' which means world ruler. "The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning"(Job 11:17)" (Lucifer; New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia)


2 Samuel 23:3
The God of Israel spoke; of me the Rock of Israel said, He that rules over men in justice, that rules in the fear of God, Is like the morning light
at sunrise on a cloudless morning,...

Lucifer
The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning"
(Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.
quoted from: Lucifer; New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia
Isaiah 14:12 The King of Babylon.
How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground,
you who mowed down the nations!

Revelation 22:16
"It is I, Jesus, who have sent my angel to give you this testimony about the churches. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the Morning Star shining bright."
 
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jhwatts

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Lucifer
The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning"
(Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life,
quoted from: Lucifer; New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia

Notice in Job 38:7, there are many morning stars and these are the sons of God. Notice in each sentence a repeat is made of the same idea.

For example.

Job 38: (5-7)

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
 
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ewq1938

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Technically, even Jesus is a 'lucifer', which means 'Morning Star' which means world ruler.


Actually that is technically incorrect. Lucifer was a name appearing in the OT Hebrew as hêylêl and through various languages ended up as Lucifer but Christ uses Greek when he calls himself "orthrinos astēr". All meaning morning star but the Hebrew name of the bad morning star is a very different name than the one Christ uses for himself.
 
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StevenMerten

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Notice in Job 38:7, there are many morning stars and these are the sons of God. Notice in each sentence a repeat is made of the same idea.

For example.

Job 38: (5-7)

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Hello JH,
I am not a pre-destination guy. I am a, God and Saints live outside of physical time, guy.

The sons of God are the saints. The morning stars are saints who held positions of leadership, guiding Christ's flock, while they were morning star humans on earth. When a person dies, they are judged by Jesus. Those judged into eternal life by Jesus, are eternally begotten of God, and now live in the spiritual realm outside of physical time. Thus the saints and morning stars can go and watch God bring Creation into existences. And they do! And they sing and shout for joy! as God brings all that exists, into existence.
 
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StevenMerten

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Actually that is technically incorrect. Lucifer was a name appearing in the OT Hebrew as hêylêl and through various languages ended up as Lucifer but Christ uses Greek when he calls himself "orthrinos astēr". All meaning morning star but the Hebrew name of the bad morning star is a very different name than the one Christ uses for himself.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?” Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
Hello ewq,
Jesus clearly tells us no one can even see heaven, much less enter heaven, unless he is eternally begotten of God. Was Satan eternally begotten of God, so he could see and enter into heaven?

I say the term 'Satan' refers to man's evil human pride, on earth; especially man's evil human pride in secular world rulers.

Jesus turns to St. Peter and yells "Get behind me Satan!" If the other eleven would have drawn their swords and killed who Jesus was identifying as 'Satan', would they have killed the devil? It was man's evil pride, in St. Peter, who was trying to tempt Jesus, that Jesus was calling Satan.

Morning Stars, or even Apostles, can be good or evil, while they are free willed, on earth. There are no evil 'Morning Stars' in heaven, nor were there ever.

Matthew 16:23
He turned and said to Peter,
“Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.”
 
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John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?” Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
Hello ewq,
Jesus clearly tells us no one can even see heaven, much less enter heaven, unless he is eternally begotten of God. Was Satan eternally begotten of God, so he could see and enter into heaven?


The scripture speaks of the kingdom of God not heaven. The kingdom is the NHNE. Yes Satan can enter heaven. He even wages a war in heaven.


I say the term 'Satan' refers to man's evil human pride, on earth; especially man's evil human pride in secular world rulers.

The bible depicts Satan as a person who will be locked inside of a pit, released and will be cast into the LOF after a last failed revolt.

Jesus turns to St. Peter and yells "Get behind me Satan!" If the other eleven would have drawn their swords and killed who Jesus was identifying as 'Satan', would they have killed the devil? It was man's evil pride, in St. Peter, who was trying to tempt Jesus, that Jesus was calling Satan.


Satan's spirit entered Peter just as it did with Judas.



Morning Stars, or even Apostles, can be good or evil, while they are free willed, on earth. There are no evil 'Morning Stars' in heaven, nor were there ever.

Satan used to have the name/title morning star but no longer has it and he has the ability to be inside of heaven until losing the Rev 12 war and being cast out for good like Adam was cast out of the garden.
 
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StevenMerten

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Notice in Job 38:7, there are many morning stars and these are the sons of God. Notice in each sentence a repeat is made of the same idea.

For example.

Job 38: (5-7)

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Hello JH,
Yes, there are many 'morning star' leaders over men on earth, only one, light of the morning, planet Venus. World leaders, good or bad, are being compared to the planet Venus. Only those world leaders judged by Jesus into eternal life, enter into heaven. Those morning stars and other saints live outside of physical time, in the spiritual realm. Saints and morning stars can go and watch as God brings all of Creation into existence.

2 Samuel 23:3
The God of Israel spoke; of me the Rock of Israel said, He that rules over men in justice, that rules in the fear of God, Is like the morning light
at sunrise on a cloudless morning,...

Lucifer
The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning"
(Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.
quoted from: Lucifer; New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia
 
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StevenMerten

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Revelation 18:21
A powerful angel picked up a stone like a huge millstone and hurled it into the sea and said:
'Babylon the great city shall be cast down like this, with violence, and nevermore to be found!'
Can anyone tell me why 'Babylon' falls, in our future, at the Apocalyptic Battle of Armageddon, according to the Book of Revelation?

I say that the Book of Job is an allegory about the Rise, Fall and Restoration of Israel. Morning star Nebuchadnezzar, is the king of Babylon, who is the 'morning star' falling in Isaiah 14, who we take to mean Satan's fall. In the future, according to the Book of Revelation, is when king Nebuchadnezzar's dynasty of world dominant power, falls.

God was King and Ruler over Israel from the Exodus, till the fall of Israel, to king Nebuchadnezzar secular power. The whole Book of Revelation is focused on Jesus taking over as King and Ruler of the world. Babylon, or in other words, the dynasty of man's evil human pride in secular power ruling over Israel, falls in our future, at Armageddon, to make way for Jesus' Kingdom Come, on earth. With Jesus Ruling the world, Israel is Restored, and thus Job will be restored. We will again have God, not Satan, Ruling over us.

It is from earth, that morning star, Satan, falls from heaven to earth. No longer will secular power be God's preference as to who will rule the world. God will put His Son, Jesus Christ, as King and Ruler over Israel, and the whole world.

Revelation 16:13

I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast, and from the mouth of the false prophet. These were demonic spirits who performed signs. They went out to the kings of the whole world to assemble them for the battle on the great day of God the almighty. (Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his clothes ready, so that he may not go naked and people see him exposed.) They then assembled the kings in the place that is named Armageddon in Hebrew. The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air. A loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, 'It is done.' Then there were lightning flashes, rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake. It was such a violent earthquake that there has never been one like it since the human race began on earth. The great city was split into three parts, and the gentile cities fell. But God remembered great Babylon, giving it the cup filled with the wine of his fury and wrath.

Isaiah 14:12 The King of Babylon.
How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations! You said in your heart: 'I will scale the heavens; Above the stars of God I will set up my throne; I will take my seat on the Mount of Assembly, in the recesses of the North. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will be like the Most High!' Yet down to the nether world you go to the recesses of the pit!

Revelation 12:5
She gave birth to a son--a boy destined to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod.
Her child was caught up to God and to his throne. The woman herself fled into the desert, where a special place had been prepared for her by God; there she was taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days...

...Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. Although the dragon and his angels fought back, they were overpowered and lost their place in heaven. The huge dragon, the ancient serpent known as the devil or Satan, the seducer of the whole world, was driven out; he was hurled down to earth and his minions with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have salvation and power come, the reign of our God and the authority of his Anointed One.

 
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clanofails

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We also can remember that Saint James had mentioned " Job " in the New Testament.

Jas 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. :11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
 
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clanofails

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I used to truly believe that Lucifer was the name of the Devil in Isa 14:12.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fell from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!

But if you notice that this is the only single verse in the entire Bible where the word - " Lucifer " appears. And this is very common of Trinitarian one step theology that has been injected into the Trinitarian society.

And this is because when the King James Trinitarian Translators had translated the < KJV > they took an Italian word meaning light and that was translated as " LIGHT " and this was in both the Latin Vulgate and the 1582 Catholic Vulgate Translation. The English Trinitarians simply carried over - dragged or - inserted / injected a purely Italian word for " light " over into an English translation - and claimed it was a translation directly from Hebrew to English.

But this Hebrew word that the translators are claiming is the ( ITALIAN WORD - Lucifer is = the Hebrew word - - " הֵילֵל - hêylêl - hay-lale' - and is used " 165 " total times in the manuscripts - and it always just simply means PRAISE and GLORY - and it is applied to the praise and glory of God and also to man and praise to families and to cities and kingdoms and even to give praise idols. - To praise anything ------- And this was done simply because the society early fifteenth century England and Europe - had already come to believe that LUCIFER was the literal name of The Devil or Satan. Therefore the Trinitarian Translators simply inserted an Italian word into English Bibles, and pretended it was REFERRING to the Devil in the verse of - - Isa 14:12 ...

Lucifer in medieval 15 th century societies in England and elsewhere ......... https://scholarship.rollins.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1027&context=mls

Also I noticed that - This Hebrew word " high or upper " - { עֶלְיוֹן - ‛elyôn - } also is used a total of " 53 times " and it simply means - H5945 - עֶלְיוֹן - ‛elyôn - el-yone' - Meaning == An elevation, that is, (adjectively) lofty - The very top: - high (-higher - highest), upper (-most). - To the top. Highest.

It is used as - the word - - - " UPPER " 16 total times.
It is used as - the word simply - " HIGH " 12 total times.
It is used as - the upper " UPPER " 8 total times. - and " upermost " - 1 single time.
It is used as - the word simply - " HIGHER " 3 total times.
It is used as - the word simply - " HIGHEST " 3 total times.

But “ 27 “ times and ( ONLY ) when the word is referred to God - it is used a the title of “ MOST HIGH “ - - So “ 43 “ times out of the total 70 times it is not used as the TITLE to say - most high. But instead of the 70 times this Hebrew word is used - they use the word as simply to mean words such as upper, high, upermost, higher and highest . - - And in this one single instance - in this one verse where God is not mentioned - they insert the title that the Translators have reserved and limited and secluded as the title of God – meaning “ THE MOST HIGH “ and they attempt to place this title into the verse. And this is the only verse where the title “ The Most High “ is used when it is not DIRECTLY speaking of God himself as the direct noun or subject.

And the following verses saying in - Isa 14:13 - The king of Babylon said in his heart - - will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: :14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. - Also, The idea of Stars – are also symbolizing humans - God symbolically refers to humans as stars as well. - - And - the idea of being symbolized with being connected to the “ CLOUDS “ is very common throughout the Bible. It does necessarily mean God himself - in heaven.

How could the King Of Babylon be going to be going up to God in Heaven - obviously this verse is not as the Trinitarians pretended ?

Job 20:5 The triumphing of the wicked is short... :6 Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds.

Pro 25:14 Whoever boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.
2Pe 2:17 ( The unrighteous ) These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest.
Jud 1:12 ( The unrighteous ) are clouds without water, carried about of winds.
2Pe 2:17 ( The unrighteous ) are clouds that are carried with a tempest.
Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed.... he goes to the grave and shall come up no more.
Eze 38:9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land.
Hos 6:4 O Ephraim and Judah,... are as a morning cloud..
Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud.
Jer 4:13 Zion shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind......

The Children of Abraham and also the Children of wickedness - are both called stars - Heb 11:12 Abraham’s seed are as the stars of the sky in multitude. Even judgment and victory are - seen as a the terms of the coming events of - the morning.

Also - in Rev_12 the dragon and the woman are both depicted as bringing stars to the earth. These are humans who are in positions of importance, prominence and in conflict with one another. - Never are any Spiritual beings such as demons or heavenly angels referred to as a star in the Bible. Nor any humans born from a woman - referred to an Angel or Demon. - I just do not find this in the manuscripts.

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. :10 And his brethren: and his father rebuked him, Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, - I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven
Deu 1:10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.
Deu 10:22 OF Thy fathers .... The LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude.
Jdg 5:19 The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money. :20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.
1Ch 27:23 But David took not the number of them from twenty years old and under: because the LORD had said he would increase Israel like to the stars of the heavens.
Neh 9:23 Their children also multiplied thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it.
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, ( the rough goat the king of Grecia: ) even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. :3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Oba 1:4 ( EDOM ) - Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.
Nah 3:16 ( The bloody city ) Thou hast multiplied thy merchants above the stars of heaven: the cankerworm spoileth, and flieth away.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, :12 ..... so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:4 The great red dragon drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

I believe that The Bible would prove that the term " Son OF The Morning " is being referenced Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, who is the title or character of the idea of a Human being defined as the - ' morning star' - - as explained in the rest of the Bible,

Isa 14:12 How art thou has fallen from heaven, as light, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! ...... :13 to say - I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

There are many hundreds of these eXact type of symbolic words that define momentous events and periods of time that are called " THE MORNING. " As - The DAWNING OF THE AGE. - 1. rising in the morning " - - 2. morning star- " – and - " 3. son of the morning. - These words only apply ONLY to humans in the Bible.

Morningstar, Son of the morning And Rising in the morning. In the Bible, the three terms and many, many, many " MORNING STAR " and " son of the morning “ and “ rising in the morning " and " MORNING “ STAGE TERMS " are simply the SYMBOLIC allegoric meaning of the character and denotation and the illustration of the meaning. - - Meaning = To own or to control or dominate the early morning dawn of a history timeline context - or to have dominion at the beginning or start or onset of a beginning time. The dawn has a symbolic meaning of the first appearance of light in the sky before sunrise. "the new pink rose light of dawn" daybreak, sunrise, first light, daylight; - The meaning also means To begin, break, arrive, emerge or come into existence. "A new era or the beginning of a phenomenon or period of time, especially one considered favorable, dominating, controlling or first or primary control. - MORNING STAR " or " son of the morning Means The Origins of a primary, early or firstly originating place or eXistance. Having, obtaining owning and or eXisting as { BEING } “ The morning star “ or being “ The a son of the morning “ or “ rising in the morning " simply means to eXist at the beginning of a period or to possess a possession of rightfulness as of that at the first or original right of power.
 
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