Does God allow abortions?

SkyWriting · Jan 15, 2019

His student said:
The thread topic has been addressed by myself and everyone here.

Yes God allows abortion. Everyone has said so and everyone agrees that it is so.

The abortion God allows is sin and will be judged by God eventually - either nationally and or individually.

The question now is what are you saying about how we are to react to those
obvious facts.

You will not come out with straight answers when you are asked. Instead, you poke and prod the people of God in order to upset them.

That is sin according to God. He tells us to avoid such contentious people in the church.

I just want to give you one more chance to stop trolling and discuss the topic like a brother.

What is your point please?

Are you saying we must not or cannot as Christians campaign against those laws and lawmakers who are involved? Are you saying we must change our opinions to line up with the majority who voted in lawmakers of the abortion stripe? Are you saying that because God allows bad governments we are to be part of them in the bad actions rather than try to change them from within?

What exactly do you mean, "follow the government"?

I could go on for some time. But please give us a few exact and straight forward things you think that God's allowance of bad laws does to our stance as Christians.

If you won't - I for one will avoid you as a contentious person in the church. Not that that would break your heart.

Others will have to make up their minds as to how to deal with a troll like yourself. I would hope they will avoid you as well.

What you do or what others do or what I do in my posts is off the topic.

**Heresy warning** - Do not read below if Heresy offends you!

What the passages and Jesus explain is that the Fathers will is expressed through local government. Local Government and it's laws are The Word of God under the New Covenant. The New Covenant is not a "mashup" of the old, obsolete written code of conduct plus the forgiveness of Jesus, to make you more smiley.

1 Peter 2:13-17
Titus 3:1
1 Timothy 2:1-3
Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Romans 13:7
1 Timothy 2:1-2
Deuteronomy 16:18-20
Revelation 1:5
Romans 13:4
Proverbs 21:1
John 19:11
Mark 3:24
Proverbs 29:2
Proverbs 8:15
Psalms 94:20
Deuteronomy 28:1-68
Daniel 2:21
John 19:10-11

SkyWriting · Jan 15, 2019

Foxfyre said:
Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's. I don't think God gave Caesar authority over abortions.

The passages I've referenced include all "Social" rules as being the Will of the Father.

SkyWriting · Jan 15, 2019

Foxfyre said:
If we took those passages literally to mean whatever the government orders us to do we must do, I can't imagine a Christian doing what a Hitler or a Stalin might order him to do. Or God condoning that.

If we took those passages literally to mean whatever the government ordains for us we must submit, there would have been no Reformation, no signing of the Declaration of Independence, no Revolutionary War, no United States of America.

You make a valid case for having a war.
So following my assumption, eradicating native americans
and founding the US was a bad idea. I'll have to think about that.

Strong in Him · Jan 15, 2019

SkyWriting said:
The passages I've referenced include all "Social" rules as being the Will of the Father.

Unless such rules were made by Christians, under the guidance of the Spirit and after prayer, there is no guarantee that they are even from God, never mind being his will.
Whatever is not from God is from the world, and we are told not to love the world, Romans 12:2, 1 John 2:15.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Jan 15, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Post #173 passages say government is the will of the Father.

If what you say is correct, then Jesus Christ Himself sinned and your hope is dead. Jesus was disobedient to "government" authority. Jesus broke rules that religious authorities had established and supported those who broke the rules. And, if Jesus Christ got what He deserved because He sinned against the will of the Father, then who's righteousness gives you life?

I would argue that Jesus never sinned. I would argue that He obeyed the highest Authority over the authority of men and that we as believers are to do the same. Every single one of the apostles disobeyed local authority in regards to what God told them to do. And, in fact, they told the local authority: "But Peter and John answered and said unto them, 'Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.'" (Acts 4:19) and again "But Peter and the other apostles replied, 'We must obey God rather than men.'" (Acts 5:29)

So were they wrong, too, because they seemed to agree with Matt Evans over you. Certainly with regards to laws that don't violate God's direction, we are to obey authority. But, when rules violate God's direction, we aren't to follow them. We answer a higher authority. The prophets were often at odds with the authority of the land. I could go on and on. God is the highest Authority and He never intended to have you follow lower authority instead of following Him.

Shoot, in some countries, it is illegal to be a Christian. Should believers stop believing, so they can conform to the standards of that country, in your theology?

You might want to think through what you say.

You also might want to re-think your church, because if what you say is true, then you match the arguments of either the roman church or the eastern orthodox church who claim to be descendent of the original church. Regardless of which you side with, one of them was the original authority that the other moved away from. So, if you blindly follow authority--assuming it always executes the will of the Father--then why do you list yourself as non-denominational? Do you willfully violated the authority you believe is the will of God in all circumstances?

Kaon · Jan 15, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Yes, that Sounds good and I have always like that. I find that's not how it's written. And it that doesn't match Jesus actions submitting Himself for trial and Crucifixion. And what he explained at His trial that His persecution was His Fathers will.

John 18

8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” 9 This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.”

10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.)
11 Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”

Matthew 26:52-54
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”

John 19
10 So Pilate said to Him, “Do You refuse to speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You and authority to crucify You?” 11 Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me if it were not given to you from above.

Christ didn't sacrifice Himself and let Himself be taken because He respected the earthly authority more than His Father. He allowed it because He did it for us.

Kaon · Jan 15, 2019

SkyWriting said:
The world was created through Jesus. You are correct, God's message of the coming sacrifice preceded Jesus.

No, I mean "abortion" gets its historical origin from arcane, but commonplace practices that preceded Christianity itself. Men and women sacrificed their children for more freedom, opportunity and wealth to other "gods".

It was a morphology of the sacrifice system of the Most High God. He never asked us to sacrifice humans, and the Human that CHOSE to die for us did so out of love.

People are practicing sacrifices to different God's without realizing it doing these practices - mainly because they are ignorant of the spirits that influence them to do such a thing. There is nothing new under the sun.

Where does the Most High God, and/or the Word of God Himself (not just a random canonical reference) insinuate by context, or directly state that the practice known as abortion is one in which He condones?

His student · Jan 15, 2019

SkyWriting said:
What you do or what others do or what I do in my posts is off the topic........

No it isn't. You said:

SkyWriting said:
Obeying government takes precedent over the written code in scripture.

Not that I agree with your statement. But I'm merely asking you what obeying the government means according to you with regard to abortion.

Unless you mean something weird - I do obey the government in a Christian way with regard to abortion - just as you say. I haven't trespassed on an abortion provider for quite some time. I haven't killed an abortion doctor at any time. I have never physically restrained a woman from having her baby killed.

Truthfully - the above restraint on my part is more a function of dreadding the punishment that would come my way for doing them than for obeying the local law for the sake of obeying the Lord.

Again - what exactly do you mean by "obey" the government with regard to abortion? Surely you don't mean that we have to renew our minds to come in line with the majority that government represents or the overreach of Constitutional rights their laws represent.

Spell it out for us - unless you really are just trolling.

SkyWriting said:
What the passages and Jesus explain is that the Fathers will is expressed through local government.

NO - what the passages and Jesus explain is that the Father's will is to allow the local government's sinful laws in order to keep civil peace. The Father's will with regard to deciding whether those laws are sinful or not is found in the scriptures.

Besides that - no local law has made it mandatory for women to abort and no statement of law has declared that abortion is moral. No law has said that Christians or anyone else must shape their opinion concerning abortion to line up with the abortionists. The law has simply laid out what punishment is due to those who protest such immorality in ways which go beyond civility (according to them).

SkyWriting said:
Local Government and it's laws are The Word of God under the New Covenant. The New Covenant is not a "mashup" of the old, obsolete written code of conduct plus the forgiveness of Jesus, to make you more smiley.

No - the command to obey the laws of the local government are the Word of God under the New Covenant. Where do you get such ideas?

The New Covenant is Christ in you the hope of glory. The administrator of law in the New Covenant is the Holy Spirit Who has been given to true believers to guide them into truth.

For some reason you seem to lack that internal administration. That likely lack has exhibited itself in wrong and or unsound doctrine and in your evil joy in trolling God's people.

P.S. - I ask you again for about the 4th time or more - when does human life begin and is it a sin to take an innocent human life?

Foxfyre · Jan 15, 2019

SkyWriting said:
The passages I've referenced include all "Social" rules as being the Will of the Father.

I will respectfully disagree. I cannot believe that God requires us to sin, i.e. agree to what harms us and/or others, just because the government orders it.

Foxfyre · Jan 15, 2019

SkyWriting said:
You make a valid case for having a war.

War is one of those most horrendous, stupid, wasteful, immoral, tragic choices by humankind. But war can be justifiable when no other recourse is offered against tyranny or the unjustifiable actions/intentions of others. It should only be the absolutely last resort.

High Fidelity · Jan 15, 2019

I forget the book, but I am pretty sure there are literally instructions on how and when to have an abortion in the bible.

NBB · Jan 15, 2019

You know there are goverments that don't like christians, what should christians there do?? forget about being christians?? @SkyWriting, we should not do everything the goverment says is correct, i think when the bible says to obey goverments is the good part about them if they have any, if a new Hitler arises you should disobey him as a christian, flee or something, i don't know how you can be defender of this position.

NBB · Jan 15, 2019

Abortion is murder of a human being, you know people have a soul and spirit and that is what makes us humans, and babies inside their mother have a soul and spirit.
So no God is not in favour of murder.

1213 · Jan 15, 2019

SkyWriting said:
One of my grandchildren abandoned her child and has not been seen since.

Her child was since adopted by her mom who now must raise another kid.

But many other children are not so fortunate. It's a decision best left legally to mom.

Especially since others are not consulted anyway.

I understand it is difficult and I accept that parents decide. But I find it sad that we have enough money to take care of murderers in prisons and we don’t kill them, but we don’t have enough money for little children and that is why we kill them. But I understand also that the aborted babies can be good material for many industries and I wouldn’t be surprised if they are sold to many evil purposes.

buzuxi02 · Jan 15, 2019

The NT isnt speaking of modern day governments. It only speaks of structures based on monarchies. Monarchs and their appointments were considered divinely appointed. If a monarch or his representative went too far he was labeled a tyrant and the people could rise up and overthrow them . But modern day governments have nothing to do with what scripture spoke of. Our leaders are man appointed. In democracy any idiot can elect any other man. It is man made appointments based on a constutuency doing the work of man.

Kaon · Jan 15, 2019

High Fidelity said:
I forget the book, but I am pretty sure there are literally instructions on how and when to have an abortion in the bible.

There is nowhere in the canon, apocrypha or Gnostics in which the Most High God gives these permissions, instructions or allowances for abortion.

Did you mean something else?

His student · Jan 15, 2019

High Fidelity said:
I forget the book, but I am pretty sure there are literally instructions on how and when to have an abortion in the bible.

If you come up with the scripture - let us know won't you?

I'm more than pretty sure there isn't any such thing.

High Fidelity · Jan 15, 2019

His student said:
If you come up with the scripture - let us know won't you?

I'm more than pretty sure there isn't any such thing.

Numbers 5:11-31.

SkyWriting · Jan 15, 2019

NBB said:
You know there are goverments that don't like christians, what should christians there do?? forget about being christians?? @SkyWriting, we should not do everything the goverment says is correct, i think when the bible says to obey goverments is the good part about them if they have any, if a new Hitler arises you should disobey him as a christian, flee or something, i don't know how you can be defender of this position.

"Hitler" is a common theme used to disrupt civil conversation. Many forums have banned the topic and bringing it up can have the poster banned. Christianforums is much more liberal in it's topic rules.

SkyWriting · Jan 15, 2019

1213 said:
I understand it is difficult and I accept that parents decide. But I find it sad that we have enough money to take care of murderers in prisons and we don’t kill them, but we don’t have enough money for little children and that is why we kill them. But I understand also that the aborted babies can be good material for many industries and I wouldn’t be surprised if they are sold to many evil purposes.

Pro Life Agencies do not fund or adopt unwanted children, not even to stop them from being murdered, becasue of the cost involved. When presses they say "Why should I pay for other peoples lack of responsibility." To save a life perhaps?

Does God allow abortions?

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