The Assurance of Baptism

notreligus · Jan 15, 2019

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

Paul said that baptism is the likeness of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Our physical baptism in water is our identification with Christ and coming under His authority. It is symbolic of what He has done for us that we cannot do four ourselves. The assurance we have is that Christ died for us and He has risen from the grave and has given us the assurance of eternal life in Him. We have this by having faith in His finished work on the cross.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Pethesedzao · Jan 15, 2019

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:
1. How did the Lord die?
2. What was Crucified?
3. What was taken down from the cross?
4. What happened to his spirit?
5. What was buried?
6. Did he die in the body or did he die in the Spirit?
7. Was it a bodily death or a spiritual death?

What then does it mean to be buried in baptism in the likeness of his death? What is the likeness of his death?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Wouldn't the burial in baptism in the likeness of his death be physical as his death was physical? That the body of sin(flesh) might be crucified with him(Romans 6:6;Galatians 2:20;Galatians 5:24) in baptism, And our spirit can then be quickened with him(Colossians 2:12,13; 1 Peter 3:21), just as his spirit was quickened at death, So that we may raise in his likeness in newness of spirit(Romans 6:4)?
1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Luke 12:50 gives us the first indication of the Baptism that saves us. Jesus said that those who were to believe in Him would go through that Baptism. Now that Baptism is not water or the Baptism WITH the Spirit, those two baptisms follow afterwards.

Pethesedzao · Jan 15, 2019

Jesus died spiritually as well as physically. He went through pain and punishment that was meant for us.

Hazelelponi · Jan 15, 2019

Im going to chime in.

Baptism means everything to me, but it's not the seal of my salvation. Only the Spirit of the Living God is that.

That is what we look to in order to know we are saved. Ephesians 1:13-14 as its not something we can do, it's not a work. The Holy Spirit testifies within our Spirit that we are children of God. Romans 8:16

That's our assurance. Baptism is a sacrament which to myself, an I think many Baptists, a visible and outward expression of an inward reality that exists, in those true in heart, prior to the sacraments fulfillment - not a vessel.

As Peter says, it's the pledge of a clear conscious toward God. God commands it, we obey in response to our salvation. Only the regenerated and justified can do this. Not in the hopes of eventual regeneration.

Hazelelponi · Jan 15, 2019

Tree of Life said:
I think what you've described is very consistent with the Reformed view on baptism. We simply believe that the children of believers also have this assurance from God that they may draw upon in order to stay on the path. I like your analogy!

I don't understand this. Every one in the New Testament was baptised after belief. There are no instances of baptism prior to belief. It's a response to Grace, not salvic in itself.

Tree of Life · Jan 15, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
I don't understand this. Every one in the New Testament was baptised after belief. There are no instances of baptism prior to belief. It's a response to Grace, not a hope for it.

Johnathan Watt has argued in his article The Oikos Formula that the concept of oikos necessarily entailed a large group of people that would have certainly included children. A first century oikos included infants, children, parents, grandparents, cousins, aunts, and even servants. When the head of an oikos was baptized, the whole oikos was baptized in the book of Acts. This certainly would have included unbelievers. If the author wanted to make sure that we didn't think so, he would have been more explicit.

Light of the East · Jan 15, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
I don't understand this. Every one in the New Testament was baptised after belief. There are no instances of baptism prior to belief. It's a response to Grace, not salvic in itself.

If that is true, then why was it not taught until the 16th century? The first Christians did not believe that baptism was a mere symbol. They taught that it saved. Acts 2:38 says that it "washes away sins." What makes your belief, which came 1500 years after Christ and the Apostles, and did not exist prior to that, correct?

Light of the East · Jan 15, 2019

dstamps said:
As you can tell, I am strongly against infant baptism unless it is repeated in some form when the individual is an adult. To me infant baptism may soothe the mind of the parents, but it will not affect the baby in any other way.

So what you are saying is that circumcision didn't do anything either when it was applied to baby boys?

How then do people get into the New Covenant without a ceremony of "covenant cutting?" Whenever a covenant was made in the Middle East, there was a rather protracted and detailed ceremony by which both parties entered into that covenant relationship with each other.

What ceremony has taken place of circumcision, which was, according to the OT, the way that one made covenant with God and entered into the Kingdom of God here on earth?

Hazelelponi · Jan 15, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Johnathan Watt has argued in his article The Oikos Formula that the concept of oikos necessarily entailed a large group of people that would have certainly included children. A first century oikos included infants, children, parents, grandparents, cousins, aunts, and even servants. When the head of an oikos was baptized, the whole oikos was baptized in the book of Acts. This certainly would have included unbelievers. If the author wanted to make sure that we didn't think so, he would have been more explicit.

I read (understood) the Bible to say the preaching of the Apostle to be so convincing the entire family believed and then were baptized.

There is nothing in the Bible to indicate the sacrament of baptism to have extended to those who neither heard nor believed..

you may argue it's possible that was the case. But you have to contend with other scripture to declare it is salvic and/or to be performed upon those who don't believe nor know what is happening.

Light of the East · Jan 15, 2019

Tree of Life said:
I'm not saying that water baptism saves. I'm saying that it signifies and seals salvation. Do you believe that water baptism means nothing?

How does one enter into the New Covenant then if baptism does not do this?

Tree of Life · Jan 15, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
I read (understood) the Bible to say the preaching of the Apostle to be so convincing the entire family believed and then we're baptized.

That is just as speculative as saying the entire household was baptized based on the faith of the head.

There is nothing in the Bible to indicate the sacrament of baptism to have extended to those who neither heard nor believed..

There is no explicit verse either way. But there is lots of circumstantial evidence in Scripture and good theological deduction that leads us to the paedobaptist conclusion.

Tree of Life · Jan 15, 2019

Light of the East said:
How does one enter into the New Covenant then if baptism does not do this?

By faith in Jesus Christ.

Hazelelponi · Jan 15, 2019

Light of the East said:
If that is true, then why was it not taught until the 16th century? The first Christians did not believe that baptism was a mere symbol. They taught that it saved. Acts 2:38 says that it "washes away sins." What makes your belief, which came 1500 years after Christ and the Apostles, and did not exist prior to that, correct?

I don't know what the first Christians did or believed outside of what the Bible teaches that they did and believed.

I stick with that scripture as my guide for what is right to do.

JM · Jan 15, 2019

The new covenant of grace is unbreakable. There are no 'covenant breakers' under the new covenant - it's impossible. The very nature of the covenant forbids the idea. The old covenant seal was physical circumcision and under the new covenant it is a circumcision of the heart. The sign of the new covenant is baptism.

Tree of Life, if you would like to discuss this in the Semper forum I would be happy to continue, but it's far too busy in this thread.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Light of the East · Jan 15, 2019

Tree of Life said:
By faith in Jesus Christ.

Wrong, sir.

I would sincerely suggest you get and read Ray Sutton's book on God's Covenant - THAT YOU MAY PROSPER. You can find it over on the I.C.E. Website as a free read. The website is a Reformed website with such authors as Gary North and Gentry on it.

Covenants are ALWAYS made in public with witnesses, what Sutton refers to as the "covenant witnesses" under his description of the forth covenant principle, that of "Oaths and Sanctions." The reason for the public witness is that if a covenant lawsuit is brought against either side in the covenant, the witnesses are there to testify against the one who broke his covenant vows.

The Old Covenant shows us the principles by which a covenant works and the way that covenant is made. The New Covenant is the fulfillment of this, but the principles remain the same. For instance, circumcision was a promise of the coming of the Messiah in the symbolism in it: blood was shed (pointing to the Cross and the Blood shed there) the one being circumcised was male (pointing to the male Messiah to come) and the foreskin was cut off, pointing to Christ being "cut off for His people."

In the fulfillment, which is now baptism, the one making covenant with Christ is lowered under the water and raised again, pointing to Christ's death, burial, and glorious Resurrection.

Just as infant males were circumcised and made fully members of the covenant community, so now are babies baptized into the covenant community of the New Covenant. The procedure remains the same, only the application has changed because of the symbolism involved.

Hazelelponi · Jan 15, 2019

Tree of Life said:
That is just as speculative as saying the entire household was baptized based on the faith of the head.

There is no explicit verse either way. But there is lots of circumstantial evidence in Scripture and good theological deduction that leads us to the paedobaptist conclusion.

And Philip said [to the Ethiopian], “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” [be baptized]

“A man who knows that he is saved by believing in Christ does not, when he is baptized, lift his baptism into a saving ordinance. In fact, he is the very best protester against that mistake, because he holds that he has no right to be baptized until he is saved.” – Charles Spurgeon

Tree of Life · Jan 15, 2019

Light of the East said:
Wrong, sir.

I would sincerely suggest you get and read Ray Sutton's book on God's Covenant - THAT YOU MAY PROSPER. You can find it over on the I.C.E. Website as a free read. The website is a Reformed website with such authors as Gary North and Gentry on it.

Covenants are ALWAYS made in public with witnesses, what Sutton refers to as the "covenant witnesses" under his description of the forth covenant principle, that of "Oaths and Sanctions." The reason for the public witness is that if a covenant lawsuit is brought against either side in the covenant, the witnesses are there to testify against the one who broke his covenant vows.

The Old Covenant shows us the principles by which a covenant works and the way that covenant is made. The New Covenant is the fulfillment of this, but the principles remain the same. For instance, circumcision was a promise of the coming of the Messiah in the symbolism in it: blood was shed (pointing to the Cross and the Blood shed there) the one being circumcised was male (pointing to the male Messiah to come) and the foreskin was cut off, pointing to Christ being "cut off for His people."

In the fulfillment, which is now baptism, the one making covenant with Christ is lowered under the water and raised again, pointing to Christ's death, burial, and glorious Resurrection.

Just as infant males were circumcised and made fully members of the covenant community, so now are babies baptized into the covenant community of the New Covenant. The procedure remains the same, only the application has changed because of the symbolism involved.

I'm still a little cloudy on this issue. I'm currently finishing up my course on Ecclesiology and Sacraments. I think it's more accurate to say that baptism marks entry into the New Covenant but that New Covenant membership does not guarantee regeneration.

Hazelelponi · Jan 15, 2019

If you go into the reformed room I'll follow. .

Light of the East · Jan 15, 2019

JM said:
The new covenant of grace is unbreakable. There are no 'covenant breakers' under the new covenant - it's impossible. The very nature of the covenant forbids the idea. The old covenant seal was physical circumcision and under the new covenant it is a circumcision of the heart. The sign of the new covenant is baptism.

Tree of Life, if you would like to discuss this in the Semper forum I would be happy to continue, but it's far too busy in this thread.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

You have no idea of how a covenant works or even what it is. What you are describing is a contract, not a covenant. As I told Tree of Life, you need to get and read Ray Sutton's book on the covenant of God. There are five principles of a covenant:

T - Transcendence. The greater offers covenant to the lesser
H - Hierarchy. Who is in charge here?
E - Ethics. The rules of the covenant.
O - Oaths and Sanctions. Blessings for covenant keepers, curse for covenant breakers. (You can find this in Deuteronomy 28-29) Now what is the purpose of such a principle if the covenant is "unbreakable." That is a Protestant fiction which is not in line with the Bible at all.)
S - Succession. The covenant continues from generation to generation.

In order for there to be a covenant, these five principles must exist in the actions taken.

Light of the East · Jan 15, 2019

Tree of Life said:
I'm still a little cloudy on this issue. I'm currently finishing up my course on Ecclesiology and Sacraments. I think it's more accurate to say that baptism marks entry into the New Covenant but that New Covenant membership does not guarantee regeneration.

That is not what the Early Fathers of the Church said. They spoke of going "down into the water dead in sins and arising to new life."

What you may be a bit confused on is when people are baptized and then fall into sin and away from Christ. What they have done is to break their covenant with Christ and will come under the covenant curse of the oaths which they made.

The Assurance of Baptism

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