The Iconoclastic Rapture

Residential Bob

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The Greek harpazo or the Latin rapier were not associated with any “snatching up” of the church before 1830. Harpazo also means “to seize on, or claim for oneself eagerly.” It is an expression found in passages in which God pursues or chooses or protects His elect.

In 2 Corinthians 12:2-6, for example, Paul says a man was “caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven.” Whatever happened to him exactly, we’re not quite sure of. But we know that it was either in body or out of body; that is, he remained on the earth.

The idea of a rapture is iconoclastic; it challenges biblical teaching. It's a newly-introduced theology.

Rapture theology teaches that Jesus comes not to redeem the earth but to destroy it. That is not scriptural.
 
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redleghunter

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I'm confused on the usage of the word Iconoclast in the OP.

Also I do agree. Pre trib rapture is a modern invintion. The verse most used to defend it has no indication of being pre tibulation. In fact if it was it would mean Christ returning three times instead of two.
The OP finds the language explaining the resurrection of the righteous dead in Christ and those who are live and remaining caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus is "foolish." Yet that is exactly what St Paul said. It's not a matter of a pre-trib "caught up" 'harpazo' but the very language of the text.
 
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com7fy8

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The Greek harpazo or the Latin rapier were not associated with any “snatching up” of the church before 1830.
There might not have been the term "Rapture", but I have offered a number of scriptures which indicate that the Bride-church of Jesus will be resurrected to be with Him. The scriptures show how we will be on this earth, then changed to be in glorious supernatural bodies, then we will go up to Jesus. Paul uses the term "resurrection", but "Rapture" can bring out how great our joy will be in this resurrection.

The idea of a rapture is iconoclastic; it challenges biblical teaching. It's a newly-introduced theology.
Rapture believing people do understand it will include being resurrected into supernatural bodies. So, there is connection with scripture. And yes we will have great joy to be with our Groom Jesus; this is the emphasis of the meaning of the word "rapture" . . . intense excitement and delight to be with Jesus. Yes we will be delighted and excited, don't you think?

Rapture theology teaches that Jesus comes not to redeem the earth but to destroy it. That is not scriptural.
This is not what ones I know are saying. And you might already have experience with how people can object to Christianity because of their ideas which have nothing to do with Christianity.

In my post, above, in giving scripture, I said not a word about Jesus coming to destroy the earth. And I believe in the Rapture. But I test each item which others might claim. Because always there can be people who will misrepresent and counterfeit what is right . . . right?

And the Bible does not say Jesus will destroy the earth. Revelation talks about how Jesus makes everything new. He will make the earth better, not destroyed. Revelation 21:1-5

Also, have you read and fed on what our Apostle Paul says, in Romans 8:19-21? I think this scripture helps to make clear what Jesus means in Revelation 21:1-5. If the creation will be changed into our "glorious liberty", the new earth will be glorious in quality, I understand, like our resurrected bodies in sharing with Jesus.

And I am offering you this, and I believe in the Rapture.
 
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redleghunter

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The Greek harpazo or the Latin rapier were not associated with any “snatching up” of the church before 1830. Harpazo also means “to seize on, or claim for oneself eagerly.” It is an expression found in passages in which God pursues or chooses or protects His elect.
What does this have to do with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?

Paul is simply comforting the Thessalonians that when Christ comes again the dead in Christ will rise first then those who alive and remain will be caught up and meet Christ in the clouds. I don't think any Christian denies this is the resurrection of the righteous in Christ. Why are you fixated thinking the use of ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force) {Latin:rapiemur} is somehow related to a pre-millennial rapture.
It's not it relates how Paul taught the Thessalonians we as Christians dead and alive would be resurrected and be with Him always.

You are just showing what a cursory glance of a pet word can do to a conversation and sowing confusion.

In 2 Corinthians 12:2-6, for example, Paul says a man was “caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven.” Whatever happened to him exactly, we’re not quite sure of. But we know that it was either in body or out of body; that is, he remained on the earth.
Just confirms the use of harpazo in 1 Thessalonians 4:17

The idea of a rapture is iconoclastic; it challenges biblical teaching.
No the idea of harpazo or rapture, or caught up is what Paul exactly used to explain that when Christ comes for His saints and resurrects them, those who are alive and remain will be caught up. In 1 Corinthians 15 it is explained in more detail:

1 Corinthians 15: NASB
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


It's a newly-introduced theology.
The Resurrection of the righteous is not a new theology. You are attempting to nuke actual Scripture to argue against a pre-tribulation 'rapture' theory.

Admit it. Christ will come again raise the righteous dead first and then those who are alive and remain will be transformed and all meet Him in the clouds. That's what the Apostle Paul teaches us no matter how foolish you think it is. This depiction of resurrected bodies meeting Christ in the clouds has nothing to do with Darby and pre-tribbers. It's the Resurrection and Second coming of Christ.

Rapture theology teaches that Jesus comes not to redeem the earth but to destroy it. That is not scriptural.
Actually the Bible teaches Christ will come again to Judge the nations and it won't be pretty. See Revelation 19.
 
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His student

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"For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. (Mt 24:37-41)"
I've been around people who believe in a pre-trib rapture for over 40 years. I know of no one who uses that scripture to support the rapture doctrine.
 
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Berean Tim

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Thank you. I never knew he made an iron clad prediction.

And yes indeed when we deal with eschatology we should deal with what we know is revealed. Jesus is Coming Again.
He didn't. He said if 1948 started the clock on the last generation we "could be" seeing the end as soon as 1988. This statement since has been linked to the guy who wrote (88 reasons Jesus returns in 1988)
 
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redleghunter

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He didn't. He said if 1948 started the clock on the last generation we "could be" seeing the end as soon as 1988. This statement since has been linked to the guy who wrote (88 reasons Jesus returns in 1988)
Thanks for the clarification. That was my understanding.
 
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SeventyOne

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The idea of a rapture generates controversy even among futurists. Like Preterists, some futurists see no scriptural basis for such fantasy. The majority do, however, and even they cannot unite on it fully, except that they base it loosely on a scant few passages, namely Matthew 24:37-41, Daniel 9, 1 Thessalonians 4, and Acts 1:9-11. To derive from these passages the idea of a “taking up” of the church, we must approach them with preconceived notions rooted in tradition and popular culture rather than in the Scriptures themselves. This presents conflict, as we see in Matthew.

Contrary to what popular culture teaches, Jesus doesn’t say that anyone is left behind, as if unbelievers are left on a loathsome planet to their dismay; he just says left. And he says the opposite of what popular culture says. Note his wording in Matthew:

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. (Mt 24:37-41)​

To illustrate his point, Jesus references Noah, who was righteous and who inherited the earth. When the rains came and flooded the land, the wicked were swept away and the righteous were left, not the other way around, as popular culture insists. When his disciples ask him where the wicked are taken, Jesus says not that they are literally taken somewhere, for their corpses are exposed to the vultures (Lk 17:37). They continue to inhabit the earth, but they are dead in spirit (the body without the spirit is dead (Jas 2:26)); they do not live in paradise with God. Those not in Christ have no life; they are not numbered among the kingdom of heaven. The wicked are taken from the kingdom. Think about the church in general. Though it opens its doors and may inadvertently admit undesirable elements from time to time, it is not a den of iniquity. Certainly unbelievers enter, but so do the righteous; indeed, the church is where the righteous gather. The Lord said he would gather his people, and he has. And note that Jesus says no one was left behind; they were just left, and definitely not to their dismay.

Not only does Jesus not use the phrase left behind, he also stands opposite popular culture on its very premise. The wicked got too pervasive, and they were the ones who were taken, or who would not inherit the earth.

This passage in the Olivet Discourse is applicable specifically to the destruction of the temple. The Olivet Discourse, after all, portents this looming tribulation. In Revelation, John the Divine refers to the imagery of birds feasting on the corpses of kings, merchants, and mighty men, and indeed all men who perished in the struggle to maintain a cult of temple that God so detested (Rv 19:17-18).

Jesus tells us in this monologue and also in the Beatitudes that the righteous remain on the earth to inherit it. He charges his apostles to pray that the Father’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven. The earth is where the Lord intends to establish his paradise. Rapture theology, on the other hand, teaches that Jesus comes not to redeem the earth but to destroy it. This theology not only disagrees with scripture but, on its face, is anathema to it. It is a foreign theology introduced in the nineteenth century, allegedly from a Scottish teenager’s 1830 vision of the end times. Before then, no one had ever heard of a rapture.

The 70 weeks theology that futurists derive from Daniel 9 is extraordinarily convoluted and beyond the purview of this exposition, but in brief, it is, like premillennialism and futurism in general, a theory that has been recently introduced to Christendom. During the Reformation, Protestants believed that the seventy weeks (490 day-years) of Daniel had already run their course. Catholics also believed this. Christians simply had not thought of separating the time measure with two thousand years of ecclesiastical history.

Another passage that requires futurist assumptions to read into it some vague concept of a church literally taken up into heaven, a realm that is not literal, is in 1 Thessalonians:

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thes 4:17)​

To believe that this is a reference to a rapture, we first must believe that a person’s spirit, which defies any literal existence, can manipulate or be manipulated by nature, that even after we die, the spiritual man still shares confines with the natural man. But of course, the natural order is not heaven; it is not where the spirit resides for eternity. This verse is about something completely different than a lifting up of the church into the atmosphere. Objects cannot float around the earth in the air that we breathe. If we were to do that in our new bodies, we would be restricted to the very confines that natural man is restricted to. That is not eternity. Paul seems to be using the word in the same sense he uses it in Ephesians when he equates sin to the “prince of the power of the air.” (Ep 2:2) That is, the air represents a “sphere of life and influence,” as Wallace calls it.* Believers are in the sphere and influence of the Lord, as Paul tells the Thessalonians, and unbelievers are in the sphere and influence of sin, as he tells the Ephesians.

Concerning those who are asleep (1 Thes 4:13-18), Paul is simply reassuring his contemporaries who are still alive that their fellow believers who have died, though their flesh rots, are still alive in Christ. Salvation is no longer strictly nationalistic; it is also for the individual.

Notice also that Paul is writing in the present and addressing people living in the years between the crucifixion and the fall of Jerusalem. We who are alive, he says; not those who are alive centuries from now. Whether dead or alive, Paul continues in the next chapter, “We live together with him.” (1 Thes 5:10). We also see in 1 Corinthians that Paul expects the Lord’s coming in his generation when he says “we shall not all sleep.” (I Cor 15:51) Paul also says this to the Corinthians:

Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. (1 Cor 10:11)​

That Paul would tell one group of a rapture and another group something diametrically opposed to a rapture is hypocritical. Paul is telling his contemporaries in Corinth unequivocally that they are experiencing the end of the age. He is not clearly telling his contemporaries in Thessalonica that they will experience a rapture. Thus the one remedy that can fix this apparent contradiction is to adjust our interpretation of his conveyance to the Thessalonians.

Barclay makes no mention of a rapture in his commentary, but says simply that Paul lays down a great principle in these verses to the Thessalonians, that a man who has lived in Christ is still alive in Christ even when dead and buried (https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/dsb/1-thessalonians-4.html).
Though the natural man is dead, the covenant man is alive.

Now let’s look at Acts 1:9-11. The ESV translation is that Jesus “was lifted up.” When we “lift up” someone, we honor that person. We lift up a soldier or a police officer for his heroism. The Greek language also captures this concept. The transliteration for the expression in the online Blue Letter Bible lexicon is the word epairō, which translates to lift up or raise up, or metaphorically to exalt (www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1869&t=ESV).

But more important, note what the two men in white robes do. Presumably angels, they challenge the reaction of the apostles. Why look toward heaven? they ask. “Jesus will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” If looking up is pointless, then that is not the way Jesus left (and so he does not descend that way from above on a stratus cloud). Note what else the angels say: that Jesus will come the same the apostles saw him leave. The apostles did not actually see Jesus lifted up into heaven, as a cloud had taken him out of their sight, but yet they look up to heaven for him after the cloud takes him. So, what was this ascension? Did Jesus actually float up into space? Is that where heaven is? Some physical place in the universe? That’s foolishness. Jesus ascends in a cloud of gory. So that’s the way he comes back. Jesus comes unnoticed, like a thief.

As an aside, suppose the apostles did see him leave. They would not have seen him leave on a white horse; Luke does not mention any animals at all when Jesus is lifted up. If futurists are to believe Acts, then they would have to alter their interpretation of Revelation 19:11-16.

Rapture theology is a foreign theology that really did not emerge in the church until about 1830 under the leadership of the likes of Edward Irving, John Darby, D.L. Moody, and C.I. Scofield. And in hindsight, even the most ardent futurist must see that this theory in all its iterations really has served no useful purpose. It has generated more confusion than understanding, more anxiety than serenity. It requires constant explanation because those new to the theory do not derive a rapture theology simply by reading scripture. Again, it is a foreign theology, a new-age load of hogwash.

* Foy E. Wallace, Jr., The Book of Revelation: Consisting of a Commentary on the Apocalypse of the New Testament (Fort Smith, AR: Richard E. Black, PDF version of ninth printing) 273.


You missed addressing Isaiah 26:17-21, a foundational passage on which Paul revealed his rapture doctrine. It has all the foundational elements, the woman in labor, the raising of the dead, the gathering of the living to where the Lord is, and all prior to the wrath of the Lord being poured out over the whole earth, after which the earth no longer buries their dead. I've been to funerals, so I know we still bury our dead, so this is a future event.

So the rapture has been hidden in plain sight since at least the days of Isaiah, if not before. It wasn't until Paul was shown their true meaning that we knew more of what they referenced.
 
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Blade

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I really wish people would search more. 1830... I have searched I have found... I then watched some shows where the man of God also found the same SCROLLS and even more. Like from 300-400 AD and before talking about preaching about "CAUGHT UP" as in before the 7 years.

Then to post "such fantasy" holy Jesus.. this word of God is not a SOLO truth. If your going to talk truth then leave out how you as another human on this world that has the same accuess to the same info out. Meaning.. Jesus went back to make us a home. He will come back and take us so WHERE He is we will be. WHERE He goes we know and how..

Them Pauls 1st letter was to people that thought Jesus had already came..gee.. you mean people were really believing.. what Christ said? A I am going but I will come back for you. WHEN would you be watching if the SON OF GOD that never lied..where EVERYTHING He ever said happened. And your standing there as HE is talking now plainly "I am going back to my Fathers house to make you a place and I WILL come back for you so where I am you will be.

So Paul..well not Paul but GOD said..no..you havent missed Him. You will here a voice a shout a trump and the dead will then rise but we wont be left... we will be changed and we will be CAUGHT UP aka RAPTURE to meet Christ in the AIR to be with Him for EVER! <----this has never happened.

Now..this is just whats written... I can't find a TIME.. So I KNOW He wants me to ALWAYS be watching and ready.. so I am NOW! I was not promised tomorrow. Now.. what I know and yet can not answer is.. will all go if they are not watching and don't believe. Just take HIM at HIS word.. not what some no name person you never heard of personally believes.. hello I AM IN THAT!

Jesus left to make you home yes? He said He will come back and get you so where He is you will be yes? Hello? Whats the problem? Just watch for Him...live each day as if THIS was the day.. look how you would be living.. you would WANT to tell people about Christ.. you want to make sure you living for Him daily..on and on.. and you COMFORT each other with this..

Praise GOD GLORY TO JESUS! He is coming..
 
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The idea of a rapture generates controversy even among futurists. Like Preterists, some futurists see no scriptural basis for such fantasy. The majority do, however, and even they cannot unite on it fully, except that they base it loosely on a scant few passages, namely Matthew 24:37-41, Daniel 9, 1 Thessalonians 4, and Acts 1:9-11. To derive from these passages the idea of a “taking up” of the church, we must approach them with preconceived notions rooted in tradition and popular culture rather than in the Scriptures themselves. This presents conflict, as we see in Matthew.

Contrary to what popular culture teaches, Jesus doesn’t say that anyone is left behind, as if unbelievers are left on a loathsome planet to their dismay; he just says left. And he says the opposite of what popular culture says. Note his wording in Matthew:

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. (Mt 24:37-41)​

To illustrate his point, Jesus references Noah, who was righteous and who inherited the earth. When the rains came and flooded the land, the wicked were swept away and the righteous were left, not the other way around, as popular culture insists. When his disciples ask him where the wicked are taken, Jesus says not that they are literally taken somewhere, for their corpses are exposed to the vultures (Lk 17:37). They continue to inhabit the earth, but they are dead in spirit (the body without the spirit is dead (Jas 2:26)); they do not live in paradise with God. Those not in Christ have no life; they are not numbered among the kingdom of heaven. The wicked are taken from the kingdom. Think about the church in general. Though it opens its doors and may inadvertently admit undesirable elements from time to time, it is not a den of iniquity. Certainly unbelievers enter, but so do the righteous; indeed, the church is where the righteous gather. The Lord said he would gather his people, and he has. And note that Jesus says no one was left behind; they were just left, and definitely not to their dismay.

Not only does Jesus not use the phrase left behind, he also stands opposite popular culture on its very premise. The wicked got too pervasive, and they were the ones who were taken, or who would not inherit the earth.

This passage in the Olivet Discourse is applicable specifically to the destruction of the temple. The Olivet Discourse, after all, portents this looming tribulation. In Revelation, John the Divine refers to the imagery of birds feasting on the corpses of kings, merchants, and mighty men, and indeed all men who perished in the struggle to maintain a cult of temple that God so detested (Rv 19:17-18).

Jesus tells us in this monologue and also in the Beatitudes that the righteous remain on the earth to inherit it. He charges his apostles to pray that the Father’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven. The earth is where the Lord intends to establish his paradise. Rapture theology, on the other hand, teaches that Jesus comes not to redeem the earth but to destroy it. This theology not only disagrees with scripture but, on its face, is anathema to it. It is a foreign theology introduced in the nineteenth century, allegedly from a Scottish teenager’s 1830 vision of the end times. Before then, no one had ever heard of a rapture.

The 70 weeks theology that futurists derive from Daniel 9 is extraordinarily convoluted and beyond the purview of this exposition, but in brief, it is, like premillennialism and futurism in general, a theory that has been recently introduced to Christendom. During the Reformation, Protestants believed that the seventy weeks (490 day-years) of Daniel had already run their course. Catholics also believed this. Christians simply had not thought of separating the time measure with two thousand years of ecclesiastical history.

Another passage that requires futurist assumptions to read into it some vague concept of a church literally taken up into heaven, a realm that is not literal, is in 1 Thessalonians:

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thes 4:17)​

To believe that this is a reference to a rapture, we first must believe that a person’s spirit, which defies any literal existence, can manipulate or be manipulated by nature, that even after we die, the spiritual man still shares confines with the natural man. But of course, the natural order is not heaven; it is not where the spirit resides for eternity. This verse is about something completely different than a lifting up of the church into the atmosphere. Objects cannot float around the earth in the air that we breathe. If we were to do that in our new bodies, we would be restricted to the very confines that natural man is restricted to. That is not eternity. Paul seems to be using the word in the same sense he uses it in Ephesians when he equates sin to the “prince of the power of the air.” (Ep 2:2) That is, the air represents a “sphere of life and influence,” as Wallace calls it.* Believers are in the sphere and influence of the Lord, as Paul tells the Thessalonians, and unbelievers are in the sphere and influence of sin, as he tells the Ephesians.

Concerning those who are asleep (1 Thes 4:13-18), Paul is simply reassuring his contemporaries who are still alive that their fellow believers who have died, though their flesh rots, are still alive in Christ. Salvation is no longer strictly nationalistic; it is also for the individual.

Notice also that Paul is writing in the present and addressing people living in the years between the crucifixion and the fall of Jerusalem. We who are alive, he says; not those who are alive centuries from now. Whether dead or alive, Paul continues in the next chapter, “We live together with him.” (1 Thes 5:10). We also see in 1 Corinthians that Paul expects the Lord’s coming in his generation when he says “we shall not all sleep.” (I Cor 15:51) Paul also says this to the Corinthians:

Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. (1 Cor 10:11)​

That Paul would tell one group of a rapture and another group something diametrically opposed to a rapture is hypocritical. Paul is telling his contemporaries in Corinth unequivocally that they are experiencing the end of the age. He is not clearly telling his contemporaries in Thessalonica that they will experience a rapture. Thus the one remedy that can fix this apparent contradiction is to adjust our interpretation of his conveyance to the Thessalonians.

Barclay makes no mention of a rapture in his commentary, but says simply that Paul lays down a great principle in these verses to the Thessalonians, that a man who has lived in Christ is still alive in Christ even when dead and buried (https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/dsb/1-thessalonians-4.html).
Though the natural man is dead, the covenant man is alive.

Now let’s look at Acts 1:9-11. The ESV translation is that Jesus “was lifted up.” When we “lift up” someone, we honor that person. We lift up a soldier or a police officer for his heroism. The Greek language also captures this concept. The transliteration for the expression in the online Blue Letter Bible lexicon is the word epairō, which translates to lift up or raise up, or metaphorically to exalt (www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1869&amp;t=ESV).

But more important, note what the two men in white robes do. Presumably angels, they challenge the reaction of the apostles. Why look toward heaven? they ask. “Jesus will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” If looking up is pointless, then that is not the way Jesus left (and so he does not descend that way from above on a stratus cloud). Note what else the angels say: that Jesus will come the same the apostles saw him leave. The apostles did not actually see Jesus lifted up into heaven, as a cloud had taken him out of their sight, but yet they look up to heaven for him after the cloud takes him. So, what was this ascension? Did Jesus actually float up into space? Is that where heaven is? Some physical place in the universe? That’s foolishness. Jesus ascends in a cloud of gory. So that’s the way he comes back. Jesus comes unnoticed, like a thief.

As an aside, suppose the apostles did see him leave. They would not have seen him leave on a white horse; Luke does not mention any animals at all when Jesus is lifted up. If futurists are to believe Acts, then they would have to alter their interpretation of Revelation 19:11-16.

Rapture theology is a foreign theology that really did not emerge in the church until about 1830 under the leadership of the likes of Edward Irving, John Darby, D.L. Moody, and C.I. Scofield. And in hindsight, even the most ardent futurist must see that this theory in all its iterations really has served no useful purpose. It has generated more confusion than understanding, more anxiety than serenity. It requires constant explanation because those new to the theory do not derive a rapture theology simply by reading scripture. Again, it is a foreign theology, a new-age load of hogwash.

* Foy E. Wallace, Jr., The Book of Revelation: Consisting of a Commentary on the Apocalypse of the New Testament (Fort Smith, AR: Richard E. Black, PDF version of ninth printing) 273.
I know the rapture will happen, we will be taken, Jesus will return, we will be spared the tribulation. New beginnings.
 
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Contrary to what popular culture teaches, Jesus doesn’t say that anyone is left behind, as if unbelievers are left on a loathsome planet to their dismay; he just says left. And he says the opposite of what popular culture says. Note his wording in Matthew:

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. (Mt 24:37-41)

Nowhere does it say unbelievers will be left alone on the planet. Quite the reverse. Everything happens here. Language about 'coming in the sky', 'meeting in the clouds' is clearly symbolic. Jesus even said, '“The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst/within.”

Revelation 20 depicts the Kingdom being right here, on earth.

What was called, back in those days, 'the resurrection of the dead'.

What is called that, in Revelation 20.

Then, Jesus reigns with the Saints for a thousand years. This has not happened yet. This also happens right after the 'lawless one is destroyed', and is mentioned in this very chapter. This, too, has not happened yet.

Paul, argued, to the Corinthians, in 1 Corthinians, 'you act as if you were reigning already, how I wish you were! I would reign with you!' And then goes on to list all of the hardships he and the apostles has gone through, and he was going through, currently.

Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, not Peter.

The above verse, you quote, should be taken with the 'sheep and the goats', and the 'ten brides' parables. Specifically, on the last part, where 'the five who fell asleep' come back, and find the ones who did not, are gone.

In both of those cases, you see those who are left talking to the ones who were not taken.




1 Thessalonians 4: 14-18

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Concerning those who are asleep (1 Thes 4:13-18), Paul is simply reassuring his contemporaries who are still alive that their fellow believers who have died, though their flesh rots, are still alive in Christ. Salvation is no longer strictly nationalistic; it is also for the individual.

Notice also that Paul is writing in the present and addressing people living in the years between the crucifixion and the fall of Jerusalem. We who are alive, he says; not those who are alive centuries from now.

Paul wrote this through the Spirit, and the Spirit ensured us future generations received these letters. Saying, 'we' does not mean 'just us contemporaries'. It means any Christian. Specifically, those Christians who are alive, when Jesus returns.

Jesus has not returned yet.

This is very clear. Nobody claims that he has.

I mean, if you are saying Jesus has returned... just say that, and come out with it. Some say he has returned. They say, 'come here', 'here is over there'. Jesus said, 'don't go'.

This includes having to go to a certain church - or any place - in order to find Jesus has actually returned.

I am not sure how preterists of any stripe see this. The Catholic Church, effectively preaches that Revelation 20 has already happened. But, they do not dare officially state that, in their catechism. Because it is entirely indefensible.

Just as it is entirely indefensible to claim Jesus has returned.

He has not.

Nobody should be claiming he has. If they want to do this, say it outright.

Jehovah Witnesses claim he has, "spiritually". You have to go to their cult, to find him. Effectively. They got this idea from the Catholic Church. And from other groups who claim Jesus is reigning already, and they are reigning with him. Because Jesus has returned. Effectively.

Really, it only works when they really secretly introduce it.

Secretly, by implying it.

It fills pews, because people go to a church that claims, 'look here, you aren't reigning with Christ'. Come to my church. We reign with Christ.

When Jesus really does come back, you won't have to go anywhere.



Whether dead or alive, Paul continues in the next chapter, “We live together with him.” (1 Thes 5:10). We also see in 1 Corinthians that Paul expects the Lord’s coming in his generation when he says “we shall not all sleep.” (I Cor 15:51) Paul also says this to the Corinthians:

Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. (1 Cor 10:11)​


Like the Prophets, what Paul wrote was written down for our instruction. Like the Prophets, they were speaking to their contemporaries, but also to the people of the future, us.

It can be noted, 1 Corinthians is where I took the verse, where Paul said he was not reigning already with Christ. Nor were the Apostles. Paul was in jail. He would be executed. He argued that his tribulations were proof that he was not reigning with Christ. And because he was not, he argued, they were not either.

1 Corinthians 4

8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign—and that without us! How I wish that you really had begun to reign so that we also might reign with you! 9 For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings. 10 We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! 11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. 12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; 13 when we are slandered, we answer kindly. We have become the scum of the earth, the garbage of the world—right up to this moment.

Obviously, if Paul was saying, by the Spirit, the reign of Christ had begun, or must begin in his lifetime, then he would be wrong. He was clearly not stating this.

He was not wrong.

Plenty of Christians suffered and died, and continue to, to this very day.

According to that verse, if this was happening, they were not reigning with Christ.

But, bottomline is simply: No, Jesus has not returned yet.

Not in any way, shape, or form.

Nobody should believe claims otherwise.
 
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Pneuma3

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I remember the book by Hal Linsey.
" the late great planet earth "
Best seller.. In 1970's.
---
Later on, he told the year of "end time/last days" during the interview.
I was very disappointed after reading about that.
---
He was not the only one to get into that.
It seems that they are lured to making
date setting/prediction.

or selling book
 
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DamianWarS

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The idea of a rapture generates controversy even among futurists. Like Preterists, some futurists see no scriptural basis for such fantasy. The majority do, however, and even they cannot unite on it fully, except that they base it loosely on a scant few passages, namely Matthew 24:37-41, Daniel 9, 1 Thessalonians 4, and Acts 1:9-11. To derive from these passages the idea of a “taking up” of the church, we must approach them with preconceived notions rooted in tradition and popular culture rather than in the Scriptures themselves. This presents conflict, as we see in Matthew.

Contrary to what popular culture teaches, Jesus doesn’t say that anyone is left behind, as if unbelievers are left on a loathsome planet to their dismay; he just says left. And he says the opposite of what popular culture says. Note his wording in Matthew:

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. (Mt 24:37-41)​

To illustrate his point, Jesus references Noah, who was righteous and who inherited the earth. When the rains came and flooded the land, the wicked were swept away and the righteous were left, not the other way around, as popular culture insists. When his disciples ask him where the wicked are taken, Jesus says not that they are literally taken somewhere, for their corpses are exposed to the vultures (Lk 17:37). They continue to inhabit the earth, but they are dead in spirit (the body without the spirit is dead (Jas 2:26)); they do not live in paradise with God. Those not in Christ have no life; they are not numbered among the kingdom of heaven. The wicked are taken from the kingdom. Think about the church in general. Though it opens its doors and may inadvertently admit undesirable elements from time to time, it is not a den of iniquity. Certainly unbelievers enter, but so do the righteous; indeed, the church is where the righteous gather. The Lord said he would gather his people, and he has. And note that Jesus says no one was left behind; they were just left, and definitely not to their dismay.

Not only does Jesus not use the phrase left behind, he also stands opposite popular culture on its very premise. The wicked got too pervasive, and they were the ones who were taken, or who would not inherit the earth.

This passage in the Olivet Discourse is applicable specifically to the destruction of the temple. The Olivet Discourse, after all, portents this looming tribulation. In Revelation, John the Divine refers to the imagery of birds feasting on the corpses of kings, merchants, and mighty men, and indeed all men who perished in the struggle to maintain a cult of temple that God so detested (Rv 19:17-18).

Jesus tells us in this monologue and also in the Beatitudes that the righteous remain on the earth to inherit it. He charges his apostles to pray that the Father’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven. The earth is where the Lord intends to establish his paradise. Rapture theology, on the other hand, teaches that Jesus comes not to redeem the earth but to destroy it. This theology not only disagrees with scripture but, on its face, is anathema to it. It is a foreign theology introduced in the nineteenth century, allegedly from a Scottish teenager’s 1830 vision of the end times. Before then, no one had ever heard of a rapture.

The 70 weeks theology that futurists derive from Daniel 9 is extraordinarily convoluted and beyond the purview of this exposition, but in brief, it is, like premillennialism and futurism in general, a theory that has been recently introduced to Christendom. During the Reformation, Protestants believed that the seventy weeks (490 day-years) of Daniel had already run their course. Catholics also believed this. Christians simply had not thought of separating the time measure with two thousand years of ecclesiastical history.

Another passage that requires futurist assumptions to read into it some vague concept of a church literally taken up into heaven, a realm that is not literal, is in 1 Thessalonians:

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thes 4:17)​

To believe that this is a reference to a rapture, we first must believe that a person’s spirit, which defies any literal existence, can manipulate or be manipulated by nature, that even after we die, the spiritual man still shares confines with the natural man. But of course, the natural order is not heaven; it is not where the spirit resides for eternity. This verse is about something completely different than a lifting up of the church into the atmosphere. Objects cannot float around the earth in the air that we breathe. If we were to do that in our new bodies, we would be restricted to the very confines that natural man is restricted to. That is not eternity. Paul seems to be using the word in the same sense he uses it in Ephesians when he equates sin to the “prince of the power of the air.” (Ep 2:2) That is, the air represents a “sphere of life and influence,” as Wallace calls it.* Believers are in the sphere and influence of the Lord, as Paul tells the Thessalonians, and unbelievers are in the sphere and influence of sin, as he tells the Ephesians.

Concerning those who are asleep (1 Thes 4:13-18), Paul is simply reassuring his contemporaries who are still alive that their fellow believers who have died, though their flesh rots, are still alive in Christ. Salvation is no longer strictly nationalistic; it is also for the individual.

Notice also that Paul is writing in the present and addressing people living in the years between the crucifixion and the fall of Jerusalem. We who are alive, he says; not those who are alive centuries from now. Whether dead or alive, Paul continues in the next chapter, “We live together with him.” (1 Thes 5:10). We also see in 1 Corinthians that Paul expects the Lord’s coming in his generation when he says “we shall not all sleep.” (I Cor 15:51) Paul also says this to the Corinthians:

Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. (1 Cor 10:11)​

That Paul would tell one group of a rapture and another group something diametrically opposed to a rapture is hypocritical. Paul is telling his contemporaries in Corinth unequivocally that they are experiencing the end of the age. He is not clearly telling his contemporaries in Thessalonica that they will experience a rapture. Thus the one remedy that can fix this apparent contradiction is to adjust our interpretation of his conveyance to the Thessalonians.

Barclay makes no mention of a rapture in his commentary, but says simply that Paul lays down a great principle in these verses to the Thessalonians, that a man who has lived in Christ is still alive in Christ even when dead and buried (https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/dsb/1-thessalonians-4.html).
Though the natural man is dead, the covenant man is alive.

Now let’s look at Acts 1:9-11. The ESV translation is that Jesus “was lifted up.” When we “lift up” someone, we honor that person. We lift up a soldier or a police officer for his heroism. The Greek language also captures this concept. The transliteration for the expression in the online Blue Letter Bible lexicon is the word epairō, which translates to lift up or raise up, or metaphorically to exalt (www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1869&amp;t=ESV).

But more important, note what the two men in white robes do. Presumably angels, they challenge the reaction of the apostles. Why look toward heaven? they ask. “Jesus will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” If looking up is pointless, then that is not the way Jesus left (and so he does not descend that way from above on a stratus cloud). Note what else the angels say: that Jesus will come the same the apostles saw him leave. The apostles did not actually see Jesus lifted up into heaven, as a cloud had taken him out of their sight, but yet they look up to heaven for him after the cloud takes him. So, what was this ascension? Did Jesus actually float up into space? Is that where heaven is? Some physical place in the universe? That’s foolishness. Jesus ascends in a cloud of gory. So that’s the way he comes back. Jesus comes unnoticed, like a thief.

As an aside, suppose the apostles did see him leave. They would not have seen him leave on a white horse; Luke does not mention any animals at all when Jesus is lifted up. If futurists are to believe Acts, then they would have to alter their interpretation of Revelation 19:11-16.

Rapture theology is a foreign theology that really did not emerge in the church until about 1830 under the leadership of the likes of Edward Irving, John Darby, D.L. Moody, and C.I. Scofield. And in hindsight, even the most ardent futurist must see that this theory in all its iterations really has served no useful purpose. It has generated more confusion than understanding, more anxiety than serenity. It requires constant explanation because those new to the theory do not derive a rapture theology simply by reading scripture. Again, it is a foreign theology, a new-age load of hogwash.

* Foy E. Wallace, Jr., The Book of Revelation: Consisting of a Commentary on the Apocalypse of the New Testament (Fort Smith, AR: Richard E. Black, PDF version of ninth printing) 273.
Rapture comes from the Latin "rapio" which means to take, its unique use in Latin text is more like "we are taken up". there is a sense of forcefulness, or swiftness suggested its meaning like snatch, grab, abduct and even rape. in fact, the English word rape is from this Latin word so you might say that Christ rapes us to the sky. Of course, this is a poor word but perhaps it shows us we need to examine the word more closely rather than allow it to conjure up all these images that have nothing to do with the biblical use.

So what's the Greek word? The word is harpagesometha (ἁρπαγησόμεθα) and it can be translated as "will be taken up". harpagesometha is from the root harpazo and it's unique form is found nowhere else in the bible. It is in the future indicative tense meaning it will be in the uncertain future. It is in the passive voice so instead of the actor performing the action the action is being performed on the actor ("taken") and 1st person plural (such as "we") if we separate these parts it would be saying "will be harpazo [by Christ]" or "we will be taken"

The root harpazo has the same meaning as its Latin counterpart with a sense of taken by force and swiftness. it is used for example in the parable of the sower in Mat 13 where the enemy snatches away the seed on the hard soil. So I can see why the English word "rape" is associated with this word as there's a forcefulness and urgency about it. But it's not all negative, in Acts 8 when Philip met with the Ethiopian eunuch and is taken away all of a sudden this word is used.

Paul certainly champions this idea of the resurrection in his other letters and it does seem he is let in on some eschatological secrets that others are not, or that are not altogether apparent in other texts. When I read Thessalonians the original audience was probably anticipating the return of Christ in their lifetime yet some had died and Paul was encouraging them to not worry about it then explain what's going to happen. After hearing this information that Paul gives this idea of Christ returning swiftly and snatching up those that belong to him to meet him in the sky seems to be the best way to look at this. When? in the uncertain future as the text indicates. This is what I think most people think of with the rapture and I don't see it irresponsible as this is what the text says and it can be supported by other passages.
 
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DamianWarS

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The Greek The Greek harpazo or the Latin rapier were not associated with any “snatching up” of the church before 1830. Harpazo also means “to seize on, or claim for oneself eagerly.” It is an expression found in passages in which God pursues or chooses or protects His elect. or the Latin rapier were not associated with any “snatching up” of the church before 1830. Harpazo also means “to seize on, or claim for oneself eagerly.” It is an expression found in passages in which God pursues or chooses or protects His elect.

harapzo is the root, the word in context is in future indicative tense (the uncertain future) it is in the passive voice, so the actor (the thessalonians) is not doing the action (the taking, ceasing, claiming...) but rather the action is being done on or to the actor (by Christ) and it is 1st person plural which is "we". If we're going to give harapzo, the root, a meaning of "to seize on, or claim for oneself eagerly." then in this usage it would be "we will be seized upon or claimed eagerly" So the text would say that Christ comes down from heaven and we who are still alive will be seized upon or claimed eagerly [by Christ] so that it results in being with Christ in the air. Christ is the one doing the action, he is the one in the air and he is the one doing the seizing or claiming eagerly.
 
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The OP of this thread, and the following posts, are filled with errors, the first of which is claiming that the doctrine of a rapture before the tribulation is based on just the few scriptures that are listed. Actually it is based on a significant number of other scriptures as well.

But the great error of much of the discussion here is the denial that there will be a "rapture." While no scripture actually uses that word, the scriptures indeed state, and explicitly state, that the event which has come to be called "the rapture" will indeed take place. And anyone who denies this is denying explicitly stated scripture.

The timing of this event, on the other hand, is indeed a legitimate subject for debate. For no scripture states when this event will take place, in regard to the timing of other events which we are also told will take place. So all positions on the timing of this event are based on interpretation. And often different interpretations are based on the same scriptures. For in many cases, the difference of opinion is not based on which scriptures a person relies upon, but upon his (or her) opinion about the technical meanings of the Greek (or sometimes Hebrew) words originally used in stating those scriptures.

So, while I participate in such debates, yet we all need to remember that we are all interpreting scripture. And none of our interpretations are completely reliable. All we KNOW is what God actually said. So whenever we use our intellects to say, "that means..." we inject a possibility of error.

And sadly, it is indeed true that many futurists indulge in flights of fancy, as they construct extensive scenarios from wild interpretations of various dark sayings in the scriptures. And most of this is a waste of time, not only to write, but even to read.

But there is another approach to eschatology. And that is to simply concentrate on the explicitly stated, "thus-and-so is going to happen" portions of Bible prophecy. If the Bible is indeed the word of God, (and if you do not believe that, why would you even bother with it) and if God indeed cannot lie, then everything the Bible said would happen either has already happened or will happen in the future. And The Bible contains many explicit statements of events that it said would happen, and which we know have never happened. So the only logical and godly conclusion is that these things will happen at some time in the future.

Contrary to popular opinion, the Bible actually contains a large number of such explicit statements of coming events, expressed in clear, plain, language. When I sat down to write a book on these explicitly stated prophecies, it eventually grew to over three hundred pages long.
 
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Blade

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"The Greek harpazo or the Latin rapier were not associated with any “snatching up” of the church before 1830"

300-400 ad.. a man that wrote hymns and preached.. talked about preached about 7 years and before that CAUGHT UP! They have the scrolls...Then other scrolls were found where they also talked about CAUGHT UP. Now.. what I say I saw I read. I know I am not the only one.. many preachers TV talked about this.. and one man had a show (he went home) really talked about it allot.

Jesus is coming.. Paul wrote to believers that thought they missed Him. Matt 24.. awsome yet not one believer/christian was He talking to. Jewish people asked about the end.. to them He spoke what they will see. It will happen.. He cant lie.. and what I know is He has NEVER EVER told one person this was not true..He never told one person there is no CAUGHT UP...ever.. MAN keeps saying its not..ask Him...go for it..pray fast for hours says weeks years.. you will NEVER get an answer on this. Its just like a old Jewish wedding.. She had no clue when he was coming back for her.. she had to keep her candle lit and always watching.. He went back to make them a home..gee where? At his fathers house.. about a year later with friends.. he comes back for her.. he makes a loud noise so she knows he is coming.. they go back where? To his fathers house for about a week..

Dont like it dont agree...praise GOD..its not the word.. but gee where and who give them this to follow? GOD
 
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DamianWarS

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But the great error of much of the discussion here is the denial that there will be a "rapture." While no scripture actually uses that word, the scriptures indeed state, and explicitly state, that the event which has come to be called "the rapture" will indeed take place. And anyone who denies this is denying explicitly stated scripture.
scripture does use the word, 1 Thes 4:17, the root is harapzo, this is directly translated to the Latin raptura which is directly translated to the English rapture. It's not used in translations because it is a later English word (c1600) and modern translations tend to prefer it being unpacked (ie. will-be-caught-up) but this is what the word rapture is rooted it, regardless how the word has morphed today. it's meaning is in the sense of "seizing and carrying off" which is consistent with the greek.
 
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scripture does use the word, 1 Thes 4:17, the root is harapzo, this is directly translated to the Latin raptura which is directly translated to the English rapture. It's not used in translations because it is a later English word (c1600) and modern translations tend to prefer it being unpacked (ie. will-be-caught-up) but this is what the word rapture is rooted it, regardless how the word has morphed today. it's meaning is in the sense of "seizing and carrying off" which is consistent with the greek.
I rather think that raptura transliterates into rapture, rather than translates. But aside from that, I agree with what you said here. I was only conceding that the ENGLISH word rapture does not occur in our English Bibles.
 
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The Greek harpazo or the Latin rapier were not associated with any “snatching up” of the church before 1830...
The idea of a rapture is iconoclastic; it challenges biblical teaching. It's a newly-introduced theology...

This claim has been widely circulated for a number of years now, but it has been thoroughly and completely disproved. Actually, the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) explicitly stated it. This was the last twelve chapters of the very famous work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heresies," which is believed to have been written between the years 186 and 188 A.D. There were earlier Christian commentaries on Bible prophecy. But all of them were either very short, like a few paragraphs at most, or have been lost.

Irenaeus described the wickedness of the world in general terms, and then said, "
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.' " (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1.)

Similar ideas were expressed by at least two other truly ancient writers, at least one Medieval one, and by several dozen writers in the 1600s and 1700s. And at least two writers expressed such ideas in the early 1800s, before John Nelson Darby took up the idea in about 1840. All this has been thoroughly documented and published.

The truly ancient ones are documented in "Ancient Dispensational Truth," By James C. Morris (me) published in 2018 by Dispensational Publishing House.

The medieval one is documented at the rapture ready website.

The ones from the 1600s and 1700s are documented in "Dispensationalism Before Darby," by William C. Watson (a friend of mine) in 2015 by Lampion Press.

And the ones from the early 1800s are documented in an appendix in my book.
 
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