Question about eternal damnation

Butch5 · Jan 14, 2019

Pneuma3 said:
Yes death is the cessation of life. When we die to self/the old man nature does self/old man nature die or does it continue to live?

The law works the wrath of God, it is spiritual, it is a ministration of death and it is a schoolmaster that leads us to Christ. These concepts seem to be beyond you.

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you yet not understand? The death spoken of is spiritual not physical. a physical death was around a long time before Adam ate as can be seen by the dino's

YOU are the one who has to deal with that issue as you are the one that says a physical death did not enter into the world until Adam ate from the tree.

And I already explained the dust scenario to you.

Answer given in more then one way which tells me that which is spiritual is beyond you, you simply have no concept of spiritual things.

That was another attempt, said a different way to show what spiritual is.
Example: you have before you a red and black tile, I hold up the red tile and say this is not black what does that tell you?

Do you really not understand how one dies to self? Do you really believe all these things are just metaphors? If so Christ cannot manifest himself in you, for to show more of Him is to have less of YOU.

Yet you maintain a spirit is only a metaphor, thus you regulate God to nothing more then a metaphor.
Thus you have backed yourself into a corner and your rant above wont get you out of it.

God is NOT a metaphor, does not matter how much you seemingly want Him to be.

This is so far out in left field I can't even make sense of what you're saying any more. You make claims with no evidence and then argue as if they were facts. You've claimed this spiritual death yet won't define spiritual. You've not given one iota of proof of this spiritual death only your opinion from two passages of Scripture.

Now, we can deal with some facts. God said that when Adam ate from the tree he would die and said that that death was returning to dust. He didn't say that that death was going to another location, nor did He say that that death was a law. You're just making things up. Give us any evidence whatsoever that that death is anything other than what God said it was.

You've made this claim of a "spiritual death" yet you can give no evidence whatsoever. Can we see this spiritual death? Is there an example somewhere that we can witness it? What exactly is it that dies in this spiritual death? You can't give any proof. All you've got is a couple of passages from Scripture that you've misunderstood. That's not proof. Your opinion is not proof. You're interpretation is not proof.

As I said, there is no such thing as spiritual death. There is no wind death or breath death. That's what pneuma means, wind or breath. You won't find anything in the Scriptures that joins spiritual with death. It's like many other doctrines that Christians have made up over the last two thousand years. It comes from mixing Greek Philosophy and/or Gnosticism with Christianity. It's called Dualism and it's not even a Biblical doctrine.

We're also using different sources of authority. I'm using the Scriptures and you're apparently using something else. It's clear that Paul said that death entered through Adam. You say it was here before Adam.

Pneuma3 · Jan 14, 2019

Butch5 said:
This is so far out in left field I can't even make sense of what you're saying any more.

As I said spiritual things seem to be beyond you.

Butch5 said:
You make claims with no evidence and then argue as if they were facts.

Well it is a fact that dinos lived and died before Adam ate from the tree, but I realize you don't like science as it shows you your wrong.

Butch5 said:
You've claimed this spiritual death yet won't define spiritual.

Done so many times but you fail to grasp it.

Butch5 said:
You've not given one iota of proof of this spiritual death only your opinion from two passages of Scripture.

I die daily. It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me, yet I live.

Pneuma3 · Jan 14, 2019

Butch5 said:
Now, we can deal with some facts.

You mean like the fact that science shows dino's lived and died before Adam ate from the tree.

Butch5 said:
God said that when Adam ate from the tree he would die and said that that death was returning to dust

And Adam was relocated to the dust from whence he came.

Butch5 said:
He didn't say that that death was going to another location, nor did He say that that death was a law

Sure He did, he told Adam he would return to the dust from whence he came and then relocated Adam back to that dust.

Adam was in a spiritual place, disobeyed God and ate. God sent Adam from the spiritual place back to an earthly place.

Adam was created from the dust OUTSIDE of the garden and then placed in the garden and that God removed him from the garden back to the place he came from show that DEATH is going to another location. From the spiritual to the earthly.

Butch5 said:
Give us any evidence whatsoever that that death is anything other than what God said it was.

LOL is this a do you still beat your wife question?

I am not disagreeing with God, I am disagreeing with YOU and YOUR understanding that the DEATH spoken of was a physical DEATH.

Which YOU have given nothing to support your claim.

Pneuma3 · Jan 14, 2019

Butch5 said:
You've made this claim of a "spiritual death" yet you can give no evidence whatsoever.

Obviously no evidence you can understand and you disagree with science which show your understanding is in error.

Butch5 said:
Can we see this spiritual death?

Yup and you can even feel it, but you obviously know nothings of the works of the law in your life or you would not even have had to ask this question.

Butch5 said:
Is there an example somewhere that we can witness it?

The whole garden story, I die daily, the law is spiritual and a ministration of DEATH.

Butch5 said:
What exactly is it that dies in this spiritual death?

YOU/self life

Butch5 said:
You can't give any proof.

The proof's abundant for those with eyes to see.

Butch5 said:
All you've got is a couple of passages from Scripture that you've misunderstood

Butch5 said:
That's not proof. Your opinion is not proof. You're interpretation is not proof.

Butch5 · Jan 14, 2019

Pneuma3 said:
You mean like the fact that science shows dino's lived and died before Adam ate from the tree.

What facts?

And Adam was relocated to the dust from whence he came.

Sure He did, he told Adam he would return to the dust from whence he came and then relocated Adam back to that dust.

Adam was in a spiritual place, disobeyed God and ate. God sent Adam from the spiritual place back to an earthly place.

Adam was created from the dust OUTSIDE of the garden and then placed in the garden and that God removed him from the garden back to the place he came from show that DEATH is going to another location. From the spiritual to the earthly.

So first death was the law. Now death is being moved from one location to another. I guess death means whatever you want it to mean at any given time, huh? You're all over the place. Just a post ago you were agreeing that death was the cessation of life. Now you're claiming it's being moved to another location.

So, the garden of Eden wasn't an earthly place? Please tell us what it was. Remember spiritual is an adjective. It's descriptive. So, what is this wind place or breath place?

LOL is this a do you still beat your wife question?

It's a question you obviously didn't answer, like so many others.

I am not disagreeing with God, I am disagreeing with YOU and YOUR understanding that the DEATH spoken of was a physical DEATH.

It's the only death there is. You've yet to give any evidence whatsoever of any other kind of death. You're only person I've every heard who said death was moving from one place to another. In your definition the person does't even die, they're still alive.

Just out of curiosity what denomination do you attend?

Pneuma3 · Jan 14, 2019

Butch5 said:
As I said, there is no such thing as spiritual death.

The law is spiritual
The law is a ministration of death

Butch5 said:
There is no wind death or breath death. That's what pneuma means, wind or breath.

The law is spiritual
The law is a ministration of death

Butch5 said:
You won't find anything in the Scriptures that joins spiritual with death

The law is spiritual
The law is a ministration of death

Butch5 said:
It's like many other doctrines that Christians have made up over the last two thousand years. It comes from mixing Greek Philosophy and/or Gnosticism with Christianity. It's called Dualism and it's not even a Biblical doctrine.

The law is spiritual
The law is a ministration of death

Butch5 said:
We're also using different sources of authority. I'm using the Scriptures and you're apparently using something else.

LMAO, Your problem is I am using scripture and science and showing how they agree with one another, for everything God has made will show forth His glory.

You on the other hand take the shadow as the true so cannot see your way out of that darkness to see that which cast the shadow.

Butch5 said:
It's clear that Paul said that death entered through Adam. You say it was here before Adam.

Yes Paul is very clear DEATH entered via Adam, but Paul does not say a physical death entered via Adam you just read that into the scripture and have nothing to prove your interpretation is correct. Whereas time and again I have shown via scripture and science that your interpretation is in error and you have done nothing to refute what I have said except to maintain you are right so I must be wrong.

If you have evidence, and I don't mean your opinion, that it was referring to a physical death please supply it for all to see.

Pneuma3 · Jan 14, 2019

Pneuma3 said:
You mean like the fact that science shows dino's lived and died before Adam ate from the tree.

Butch5 said:
What facts?

Oh good grief. really?

Butch5 said:
So first death was the law. Now death is being moved from one location to another. I guess death means whatever you want it to mean at any given time, huh? You're all over the place. Just a post ago you were agreeing that death was the cessation of life. Now you're claiming it's being moved to another location.

So, the garden of Eden wasn't an earthly place? Please tell us what it was. Remember spiritual is an adjective. It's descriptive. So, what is this wind place or breath place?

been answered a dozen times already, If you have no understanding of spiritual things, and it is getting painfully obvious you do not, nothing more I say will even register with you.

Butch5 said:
It's the only death there is. You've yet to give any evidence whatsoever of any other kind of death. You're only person I've every heard who said death was moving from one place to another. In your definition the person does't even die, they're still alive.

Of course they are still alive, the death is the death of the old man, not the man themselves.

It is no longer I that live, but Christ that liveth in me, yet I live.

Butch5 · Jan 14, 2019

Pneuma3 said:
The law is spiritual
The law is a ministration of death

The law is spiritual
The law is a ministration of death

The law is spiritual
The law is a ministration of death

The law is spiritual
The law is a ministration of death

LMAO, Your problem is I am using scripture and science and showing how they agree with one another, for everything God has made will show forth His glory.

You on the other hand take the shadow as the true so cannot see your way out of that darkness to see that which cast the shadow.

Yes Paul is very clear DEATH entered via Adam, but Paul does not say a physical death entered via Adam you just read that into the scripture and have nothing to prove your interpretation is correct. Whereas time and again I have shown via scripture and science that your interpretation is in error and you have done nothing to refute what I have said except to maintain you are right so I must be wrong.

If you have evidence, and I don't mean your opinion, that it was referring to a physical death please supply it for all to see.

Well, I think it's pretty clear to anyone following along you've got no argument and the ad hominems just give further evidence of that. The ad hominem is usually the last gasp effort. I think I've wasted enough time on this so, I think I'll leave the twilight zone now.

Pneuma3 · Jan 14, 2019

Butch5 said:
Well, I think it's pretty clear to anyone following along you've got no argument and the ad hominems just give further evidence of that. The ad hominem is usually the last gasp effort. I think I've wasted enough time on this so, I think I'll leave the twilight zone now.

Pneuma3 said:
Yes Paul is very clear DEATH entered via Adam, but Paul does not say a physical death entered via Adam you just read that into the scripture and have nothing to prove your interpretation is correct. Whereas time and again I have shown via scripture and science that your interpretation is in error and you have done nothing to refute what I have said except to maintain you are right so I must be wrong.

If you have evidence, and I don't mean your opinion, that it was referring to a physical death please supply it for all to see.

I didn't think so.

FineLinen · Jan 16, 2019

FineLinen said:
Dear Ronald:

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water...Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Dear Ronald: I much appreciate your prayers on my behalf! One of these fine days the culmination of a near death experience 10 years ago will be the real thing & the One I love with my entire being will move into a new dimension of grandeur. I will be very discouraged if I am not a disciple who leans on His bosom listening to His heart!

From Him the ta panta, through Him the ta panta, in Him the ta panta

Der Alte · Jan 16, 2019

FineLinen said:
From Him the ta panta, through Him the ta panta, in Him the ta panta

My Bible has 31,172 verses looks like you use the UR Bible which only has that one verse. FYI in Greek "ta" is the definite article so you are saying "the the panta."

FineLinen · Jan 17, 2019

Ronald said:
The wages of sin is death, it's a curse. It is final!

Dear Ronald: The wages of sin is death & it is indeed a curse! The curse that fell on Adam1 as a result of disobedience, flows to the seed of Adam1 by no choice of their own. ALL are "made sinners".

But Ronald, the same polus "made sinners" are "made righteous" in the Lord of Glory.

We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, BUT, the Lord does not take away life INSTEAD He devises ways for the banished to be restored.

Ronald: welcome to the God of restoration!

No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make His blessings flow
Far as the curse is found,
Far as the curse is found,
Far as, far as, the curse is found.

FineLinen · Jan 17, 2019

Ronald said:
"Then He will say to those on His left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the age-lasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Matt. 25:41

Dear Ronald: Are those on the left the 5 unwise virgins? Perhaps they are one of the clean animals of the sheep and goats or one of the unwise investors of the Master?

Why don't you step up to the plate and hit a homer for us?

Take 20

You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks.

Why??

There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25:46).

This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

This should be so easy for you!

According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=

1._____________________________________________________________?

2._____________________________________________________________?

3._____________________________________________________________?

4._____________________________________________________________?

5._____________________________________________________________?

“Love knows no limit to its endurance, no end to its trust, no fading of its hope; it can outlast anything. It is, in fact, the one thing that still stands when all else has fallen.” - J.B. Phillips-

alv_c · Jan 17, 2019

YahEli said:
Why did God create a place like hell to put "damned souls and spirits" in it? Isnt it more merciful to control/alt/delete those souls from creation instead of punishing them and making them suffer forever?

You need to understand two things. First, hell does not yet exist, it is a future place, that will exist outside old Jerusalem, that will begin to burn from the second coming of the Messiah. Secondly, God has predestined all things, and has appointed the existence of sinners, so that through sinners he may demonstrate his mercy or forgiveness through some, and through others he may demonstrate his wrath and power. Read this study about hell, The Lake of Lava, the True Mount Zion, and the True Location of Gehenna and the Judgment | Wisdom of God , then read this study about predestination Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice | Wisdom of God .

FineLinen · Jan 20, 2019

By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

Romans 11:36=

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

-F.W. Robertson Word Pictures-

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

FineLinen · Jan 21, 2019

Take 21

You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks.

Why??

There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25:46).

This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

This should be so easy for you!

According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=

1._____________________________________________________________?

2._____________________________________________________________?

3._____________________________________________________________?

4._____________________________________________________________?

5._____________________________________________________________?

“Love knows no limit to its endurance, no end to its trust, no fading of its hope; it can outlast anything. It is, in fact, the one thing that still stands when all else has fallen.” - J.B. Phillips-

Der Alte · Jan 21, 2019

FineLinen said:
begin

[post #10178]<FL>Take 21
You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks.
Why??
There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25:46).
This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.
This should be so easy for you!
According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.
The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=
1._____________________________________________________________?
2._____________________________________________________________?
3._____________________________________________________________?
4._____________________________________________________________?
5._____________________________________________________________?
“Love knows no limit to its endurance, no end to its trust, no fading of its hope; it can outlast anything. It is, in fact, the one thing that still stands when all else has fallen.” - J.B. Phillips-<FL>

end

Since you are continuously presenting yourself as the be all end all expert on Matt 25 and "eternal punishment" why don't you fill in the blanks with what you think the "cornerstone" is. You are the one who introduced these five points, the burden of proof is on you.
And for your info the writings of J.B. Phillips are the unsupported opinions of one man, they are not scripture.

Cis.jd · Jan 21, 2019

eleos1954 said:
well He doesn't ... this is a mis-teaching and causes more stress, lack of trust in God, and keeps people from coming to God more than anything I know of.

In the very end, God will totally destroy all the wicked, satan and his minions. God is NOT a sadist/terrorist.
.

There are people who believe God to be like this but lack the common sense to admit it. Take a look at the second chance thread.

FineLinen · Jan 22, 2019

Cis.jd said:
There are people who believe God to be like this but lack the common sense to admit it. Take a look at the second chance thread.

Dear Cis: Our Father's Purpose in the son of His love is NOT based on chance! This is not a heavenly lottery or gambling casino.

His Plan=

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."

FineLinen · Jan 22, 2019

The punishment of the Father of all fathers is not merely correction: it is correction that improves, changes, transforms for the better.

Our God punishes with an objective in view, not as an end in itself!

There are dual aspects to our Father’s Realm as shown in the following…

Tamiym/ 'ymt means to be consumed, destroyed, exhausted and spent, but also to be finished and made sound.

Kalal has the same meaning, linking destruction, being spent, exhausted, as well as to be finished and made sound.

Tamam, the root word of Tamiym means to be finished, complete, summed up, made whole: linked with to be consumed, exhausted, spent and destroyed.

Shalam/ ~IX, another expression of destruction, has the scope of being finished and ended, made good or whole, & being made sound, coupled with to be restored.

Shebar, rooted in Shabar, means breakout, and being brought to birth; and underlying new birth and breakout? To be crushed and broken. Again there is dual meaning in our Lord’s words of destruction and re-creation.

Chalowph

The destructive Hebrew word Chalowph is rooted in being altered, renewed, changed, and to sprout again. It should also be noted that this is not just change, but change for the better.

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Question about eternal damnation

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