Another sexless unconsummated marriage

Swan7

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Honestly I cannot offer any advice except go to God about this as man cannot help you in this regard without looking like Job's friends that accused him of sin in his life; and God coming in to set the record straight by chastising them. Even Job but that was for a completely unseen situation only seen by God.
Get what I mean?

So I would implore you to seek God in this matter and allow Him to guide you how to be a husband in this marriage where both parties are hurting. :yellowheart:
 
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Theresasjourney

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I think she know she has a lot of work and is struggling with how much work it will actually be. She gets overwhelmed quickly
I want to say that I validate the struggles you both are having. It's a challenging place to be in for both of you. As you stated she has been traumatized and by your topic I would assume sexually abused. If I assume wrong I am sorry. Obviously you both need to seek God. But also both of you should go to therapy seperately. A good therapist would not push to do more then she can handle..she should be able to do therapy at her own pace. And for you..it would give you a safe place to talk and vent and get some guidance. She needs time, patience and a greater understanding of safe beautiful sexual sharing in the marriage bed. Where both are mutally satisfied. Plus there is alot to be said about lying in bed naked by each other and just caressing being flesh on flesh, like stroking a rose petal.
 
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Dave-W

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I'm curious...

Why do you stay?

I could understand it if there were kids involved - and you didn't want to upset that cart over sex. But, with no kids? What keeps you there?
Some people take wedding vows seriously.
 
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Deidre32

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Some people take wedding vows seriously.
I don’t think wedding vows cross over into accepting any and all treatment from a spouse. It sounds like she just wants a roommate, not a husband.
 
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Dave-W

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I think Mary went on to have other children?
Most Protestant groups take that position; but the Catholics and Orthodox have her being a virgin forever - no other kids.

Of course in first century Judaism that would have been considered a grevious sin.
 
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Dave-W

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I don’t think wedding vows cross over into accepting any and all treatment from a spouse. It sounds like she just wants a roommate, not a husband.
There only a very few (2) instances where divorce is biblically allowed. Sexual refusal is NOT one of them.

In 2nd Temple era Jewish culture, sexual refusal on the part of the wife was unthinkable. But the guys on the other hand .... There was a reason they put sexual minimums the wives would receive in the legally binding Marriage Contracts. (NT times) And there are court records to show wives would and DID take their husbands to court to force more sex out of them.
 
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Alongtime

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It is interesting seeing the responses. Thank you for those who decided to chime in. The reality is without consummation the legal marriage never actually became a marriage and could be annulled according to the law and biblically. I have been to a therapist and with several others. Unfortunately the majority of the work will be hers. I am a loving husband who for many years did everything she ever asked me to do including counseling and so did she. I still do the majority of what most women want, including my wife, and that is to serve her. I do the majority of cleaning, cooking, grocery shopping. I spend time with her,although recently it has been much less. As far as to why I stay, we have adopted 3 children as that is where my heart has always been. I know that God has worked in our lives and if not for this marriage I would not have gotten my awesome children. As an update please continue to pray as we have had a discussion and therapy should begin soon I hope. I do take my vows seriously and know that God hates divorce and hope that one day God will allow us to truly be more than roommates. God has never failed me and has always provided for me and I have to trust he will continue to do so. There are unfortunately many others issues my wife has that has lead to our unfortunate life events. I have been and will continue to encourage her to get the help she needs and will continue to get the help I need as needed. I am not just saying this a man but there was a lot of hidden damage I did not know before our marriage that has lead to our current situation. Both of us had trauma, we just handled it in completely different ways. I embraced what happened acknowledged it was not my fault and moved on. She has not. I am and have always been a very joyful person because of what God has done in my life. I hope and pray God does the same for my wife. She was not and has recognized the extent of her issues until our marriage came to be.
Finally as the “jollies” statement. God did not intend for husband and wife to be roommates but lovers. That is the only difference between friends and wives. The wife is and should be the only one to provide that kind one intimacy. I cannot and should not get it from anyone but her. 1 Corinthians 7. I do not want my “jollies” I want to be with my wife. It is not just about sex it is a physical connection that should and can only be supplied by the wife and likewise for the husband. I know there are women in the same situation but it is the husband withholding the physical intimacy. As anyone into this situation will tell you it is the closeness with ones spouse that is the true desire. That is true JOY not my “jollies”.
 
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DZoolander

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Some people take wedding vows seriously.

I usually agree with a lot of your points of view - but I'm going to have to quibble with you on this one.

A lot of your posts in the past have been with respect to how many churches teach that abstinence is just a temporary condition - but once you marry your patience will be rewarded with just unending sex...and how that's unrealistic. That real life doesn't work that way and churches are in error for teaching this type of thing.

And that seems - at least from what I'm reading - to be fueling a bit of your responses to this guy. You talk about how he wants to "get his jollies", how he needs to put that into perspective, etc all within the confines of the marital obligation/agreement.

While in MOST cases I can see your argument - like when a husband isn't getting as much as he would like - there's a disparity in desire (like he want it 4 times a week, she wants it once per month, etc etc) - that's not the case here. I think there's a substantial qualitative difference between discussions that try to find equilibrium between differing levels of desire (where sex is actually a possibility) - and one where sex just isn't an option whatsoever due to behavioral choices.

15 years, and not once, nor does there appear to be any potential for it ever happening in the future.

With THAT type of scenario in mind - and with your admonishment that "some people take their marriage vows seriously" - I think it's a fair question to ask "Well, what are the attributes of a marriage?" What separates marriage from a chum, buddy, someone you'd otherwise drop off at the end of the night and NOT forsake all others for?

I know it leads into dangerous territory to say this because then everyone starts bringing up things like "Well, what happened if she got into an accident and couldn't have sex?" etc etc - but barring any sort of extreme examples like that - I would say that the qualitative difference between a marriage and a buddy is the sexual component. It is not sex that defines marriage, but in my mind a marriage cannot be void of that component except under extraordinary circumstances.

Because...forsake all others (meaning sexually) - for what? For their witty conversational skills? For how they treat kittens? For how they balance a checkbook? For their smiling face in the morning?

I can honestly say - I've met plenty of cool women over my life - but there's never been a single one I've ever met that was so cool that I would take on a life of abstinence so that I could have the opportunity to hear their voice as the first thing I hear in the morning. I don't need to sleep next to anyone that badly. I don't need to wake up next to anyone that badly. While sex is not by any means the only component to a loving long lasting marriage - once again barring any extraordinary circumstance - it is a required component IMHO.

And to be absolutely and truly void of it - that's not a marriage IMHO. That's a girl I would drop off at the end of the night after having a pleasant evening of discussing movies, philosophy or whatever...give her a hug...while I go find someone that can do all of those things AND have sex. Maybe we'll have differences in opinion on appropriate frequency - where advice about how churches instill improper beliefs into people may apply. But at least it's on the table, as it should be.

Just my opinion...lol
 
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Dave-W

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With THAT type of scenario in mind - and with your admonishment that "some people take their marriage vows seriously" - I think it's a fair question to ask "Well, what are the attributes of a marriage?" What separates marriage from a chum, buddy, someone you'd otherwise drop off at the end of the night and NOT forsake all others for?
Making a covenant commitment is what separates it. (A topic that is mostly lost on modern society) It is a binding life-long commitment. And yes, it is still valid even if made under false pretenses. See the story about the Gibeonites in Joshua.

If you have read My posts you have no doubt read of my own struggles in that area. While we consummated on the honeymoon, there were abuse Issues and bad teachings (and unfortunate choices made) that brought everything to a crashing halt shortly thereafter.

So it is not like I am just throwing theological or doctrinal theories out there. I have lived it.
 
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DZoolander

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I don’t think it’s that cut and dry.

Was it an informed covenant commitment - made with a full understanding of what was being entered into?

I doubt anyone would argue that a child ought be obligated to fulfill his/her “covenant” if they were to be married. So clearly the circumstance of how the covenant was entered into matters and it’s not absolute.

Even the Catholic Church which is in my experience the least forgiving of divorce allows for annulment in the event that one of the partners was duped.

Was she upfront with him at the beginning that sex just wasn’t on the table - and was he okay with that? That he was entering into a life of abstinence?
 
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DZoolander

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Now in this scenario - he's kinda painted himself into a corner because he's adopted kids with her. When I said before that "upending the kid's lives due to sex isn't something I would do/recommend" - that applies here as well...3 times over.

But, if they were unencumbered with kids, I think I'd pursue the line of questioning of "What is a marriage" further.
 
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mama2one

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I have been and will continue to encourage her to get the help she needs and will continue to get the help I need as needed.

Hoping that you two will get the help you both need especially as the parents of adopted children.
Blessings
 
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Ricky3369

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...marriage is not only about sex or having sex, it's more on being with the person you fell in love with; growing old together and sharing life together. That's what's important. ...

You started off saying marriage is not ONLY about sex, which is a truism. But you ended with "That's what's important" as if to say "sex is not important." This is a very subtle but frequent deception. First you knock down the strawman argument of "marriage is only about sex" which no one is asserting. Then you gradually work your way to the position that marriage is essentially not at all about sex.

The word consummation is defined as:

"the action of making a marriage or relationship complete by having sexual intercourse.
"the eager consummation that follows a long and passionate seduction"
  • the point at which something is complete or finalized.
    "the consummation of a sale"
    synonyms: completion, accomplishment, achievement, attainment;
Sex is the act of marriage. To reduce sex within marriage to an optional activity solely for the purpose of selfish pleasure is to slander one of the most profound and meaningful gifts from God. Marriage and sex are bound together to the point where one does not morally exist without another. An unconsummated marriage is not simply grounds for divorce, it is grounds for an annulment with remarriage as a moral option.

For @Dave-W who thinks we should be using Augustine or St. Jerome as our apostles instead of Paul:

1 Corinthians 7:5
"Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency." (KJV)

Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." (ESV)

The Bible was written in the context of a Jewish culture that had rigorous accountability structures in place to prevent sexless marriages. The term mored was given to a man who refused to fulfill conjugal relations with his wife. There were punishments given to him if he went more than 4 sabbaths without fulfilling his duties. Likewise, a wife could get declared moredet for refusing to fulfill her conjugal duties to her husband after four sabbaths. After one year of this, the Jewish leaders would grant a divorce.

Rather than damaging marriage by allowing divorce in cases of sexual refusal, the Jewish leaders understood the real threat came from sexless marriages, which if allowed to go unpunished, would lead to rampant immorality similar to the pagan Canaanite practice of temple prostitutes. Paul's admonishment to the Corinthians is reflective of his awareness of this danger. We should not be so cavalier in our responses to this person's situation that we lose sight of basic moral discernment.
 
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Dave-W

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For @Dave-W who thinks we should be using Augustine or St. Jerome as our apostles instead of Paul:
No I absolutely disagree with the ECFs on this point, those 2 especially.
 
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Dave-W

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The Bible was written in the context of a Jewish culture that had rigorous accountability structures in place to prevent sexless marriages. The term mored was given to a man who refused to fulfill conjugal relations with his wife. There were punishments given to him if he went more than 4 sabbaths without fulfilling his duties. Likewise, a wife could get declared moredet for refusing to fulfill her conjugal duties to her husband after four sabbaths. After one year of this, the Jewish leaders would grant a divorce.
During the 2nd temple period, a sexless marriage was unheard of in Jewish society. Sex was a wife’s right and a husband’s responsibility, legally. The amount of sex a wife was legally obliged was based on a man’s occupation and was written into the marrige contracts. Women could and DID take their husbands to court to up the amount of sex if they did not meet the requirements.

The ancient sages had no term for a wife who refused since it was NEVER an issue, until after they were dispersed from the Land following the Bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad. Being mixed into the pagan Greco/Roman society (which believed women had no sex drive) Jewish women started acting like their goyish neighbors and started refusing. So by 500 ad when the Talmuds were published, that had become an issue too.

But the wife refusing sex was NOT an issue during NT times at all, at least not in Jewish circles. What the converting Gentiles brought in with them is a different story. As I said, Greco/Roman culture did not believe women had any kind of sex drive or feelings. That was from Hippocrates who wrote that in 400 bc. Western medicine believed that until the very early 1900s as well.
 
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James Chairs4U

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You started off saying marriage is not ONLY about sex, which is a truism. But you ended with "That's what's important" as if to say "sex is not important." This is a very subtle but frequent deception. First you knock down the strawman argument of "marriage is only about sex" which no one is asserting. Then you gradually work your way to the position that marriage is essentially not at all about sex.

The word consummation is defined as:

"the action of making a marriage or relationship complete by having sexual intercourse.
"the eager consummation that follows a long and passionate seduction"
  • the point at which something is complete or finalized.
    "the consummation of a sale"
    synonyms: completion, accomplishment, achievement, attainment;
Sex is the act of marriage. To reduce sex within marriage to an optional activity solely for the purpose of selfish pleasure is to slander one of the most profound and meaningful gifts from God. Marriage and sex are bound together to the point where one does not morally exist without another. An unconsummated marriage is not simply grounds for divorce, it is grounds for an annulment with remarriage as a moral option.

For @Dave-W who thinks we should be using Augustine or St. Jerome as our apostles instead of Paul:

1 Corinthians 7:5
"Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency." (KJV)

Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." (ESV)

The Bible was written in the context of a Jewish culture that had rigorous accountability structures in place to prevent sexless marriages. The term mored was given to a man who refused to fulfill conjugal relations with his wife. There were punishments given to him if he went more than 4 sabbaths without fulfilling his duties. Likewise, a wife could get declared moredet for refusing to fulfill her conjugal duties to her husband after four sabbaths. After one year of this, the Jewish leaders would grant a divorce.

Rather than damaging marriage by allowing divorce in cases of sexual refusal, the Jewish leaders understood the real threat came from sexless marriages, which if allowed to go unpunished, would lead to rampant immorality similar to the pagan Canaanite practice of temple prostitutes. Paul's admonishment to the Corinthians is reflective of his awareness of this danger. We should not be so cavalier in our responses to this person's situation that we lose sight of basic moral discernment.

Hello,
I am saying that SEX is important, and thus the reason behind getting married, NO ONE wants to go without SEX, but it also takes TWO TO TANGLE, meaning that if ONE is NOT interested or LOOSES interest; THAT one person is NOT TO blame and or is that a REASON TO DIVORCE,

And regardless what the Bible says about fulfillment times change and we must change with them. People today are not the same as the Jewish culture thousands of years ago. Or is it allowed for a man to FORCEFULLY get SEX from his wife just for his satisfaction. It takes TWO.

That's all I have and will say.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Making a covenant commitment is what separates it. (A topic that is mostly lost on modern society) It is a binding life-long commitment. And yes, it is still valid even if made under false pretenses.

Well not legally...in fact, the few situations that allow annulment of a marriage include...

1. False pretenses.
2. The marriage never being consummated.

So while I'm not going to get into what biblically constitutes a marriage...at this point he could get out of this marriage with an annulment. Legally speaking, it would be like the marriage never happened....no alimony, no splitting of wealth, nothing.

He could get a lawyer and in relatively short time, be single again...and not even divorced...literally as if the marriage never existed in the eyes of the law.
 
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barefeetonholyground

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Says who???

You are saying that Mary and Joseph were never really married?
Jesus had brothers.
I think it's safe to say that Joseph and Mary had relations after she gave virgin birth.

That being said, the OP's post in a lot of ways bothers me.
15 years and not once?
I can't buy trauma as an excuse on this one.
She is not fulfilling her marital duties to her husband.
We all have trauma.
Some worse than others.
It's not reason to be let out of our marital obligations or disobey God in any way.
 
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