The Iconoclastic Rapture

Residential Bob said:

Following the latter part of the twentieth century, when Hal Lindsey published his books The Late Great Planet Earth and The 1980’s: Countdown to Armageddon and Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins began publishing their Left Behind series, the idea of a coming apocalypse captured the imaginations not only of Christians but of others as well. The idea of a future apocalypse predates these publications, of course, but these authors, among others, have managed to sensationalize a foreign theology.

One inspiration for Left Behind was a song by Larry Norman called I Wish We’d All been Ready, published in 1972 on the Only Visiting This Planet album. One of the verses reads thus:

A man and wife asleep in bed
She hears a noise and turns her head he's gone
I wish we’d all been ready
Two men walking up a hill
One disappears and one’s left standing still
I wish we’d all been ready​

Larry Norman was a pioneer in contemporary Christian music. His lyrics reflected the human condition and his music both rocked and soothed. But as enjoyable as Norman’s music was to listen to, and still is, it may not be scripturally sound. Even the album’s title runs counter to the spirit of the Gospel. Certainly because our flesh dies, we’re only visiting this planet, but the Gospel message is not that we should despair of our lives on the planet. This particular song only reinforces this erroneous message. And when LaHaye and Jenkins capitalize on the lyric of this song, they, too, disseminate a false theology. Like this song, the Left Behind books say that the righteous are taken away, or raptured, as futurists like to say, and that the wicked are left behind, as if the earth is not a desirable place to be, even though David’s poetry says otherwise:

The heavens declare the glory of God,

and the sky above proclaims his handiwork;​

The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof,

the world and those who dwell therein,​

for he has founded it upon the seas

and established it upon the rivers. (Ps 19:1; 24:1-2)​

Jesus often quoted the patriarchs, who never even hinted that man should endeavor to escape from the earth but rather that he should behold it and find pleasure in it even while he toils. A sample of passages to this effect includes Psalms 24:1 and 33:5 and Ecclesiastes 3:11-13.

Man may have a hope in the everlasting, but his place is on the earth. From scripture we glean that that is the very heart of creation—that man shall walk the earth with his Creator. Man’s place being on the earth is key to the disconnectedness of futurism, which in one sense is escapism. Futurists want to escape; they’re only visiting this planet, they insist. This world is not their home. The Bible, however, takes a rather dim view of that. As we see with Noah, the Beatitudes, and elsewhere, the earth is the Christian’s home. Not forever, of course, for though the earth may not be heaven, it is paradise when Creator and Creation reside there together. God’s dwelling place is with man (Rv 21:3).

The earth is good; God created a good thing, as Genesis tells us, and Jesus did not come to suggest otherwise:

I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. (Jn 17:15)
​

The Lord is with us, now, on the earth.

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The futurist are so because that position is taken from a literal understanding of the texts that are relevant for the end of the age and the onset of the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth. This position can be easily established as Biblical by examining the passages and asking simply one question and that is did that already happen or is it future.

here is a prophecy in Amos 9 that speaks of one people Israel who God will wipe out but yet promises a remnant will be placed back in that land and they will never be uprooted again.


O children of Israel?” says the LORD.
“Did I not bring up Israel from the land of Egypt,
The Philistines from Caphtor,
And the Syrians from Kir?
8 “Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful kingdom,
And I will destroy it from the face of the earth;
Yet I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob,”
Says the LORD.
9 “For surely I will command,
And will sift the house of Israel among all nations,
As grain is sifted in a sieve;
Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground.
10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword,
Who say, ‘The calamity shall not overtake nor confront us.

“On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle[fn] of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom,[fn]
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,”
Says the LORD who does this thing.
13 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
“When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15 I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,”
Says the LORD your God.

So when you look at passages like this there is a time when Israel is established and permanently that is not defeated again. This coincides with the LORD coming with His saints and being king over all the earth on the day the Mt of Olives splits in two the they proclaim the LORD is king over all the earth. This is the onset of the 1000 year kingdom on earth. The facts is for Daniel 9 to be a future prophecy as we expect Israel would have to be a nation and hated by all the other nations at the time world morality was upsidedown that is evil is good and good is evil and at a time when global government is being formed and a merger of religions is being accomplished. The return of the sacrifices in the temple after the nation of Israel is divided is another key central element for Daniels 70h week to be future for in the middle of the week the sacrifice is stopped. This is amazingly 42 months if you break 7 years into months and matches the time in Rev 13 the beast has control of the world. You make think we are nuts but every element of the literal view is lined up and shouts loudly that this view is tracking with current events. At any rate our hope is to be with Jesus and be prepared for eternity. We see the LORD is promised to do these things. So we expect them to happen just as the events in Jesus 1st advent happened literally.

Residential Bob said:

Competing theories is one of the very reasons I avoid futurism. I do not want to add to the Scriptures.

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And part of the reason I no longer hold to a pre-Trib eschatology.

I remember the book by Hal Linsey.
" the late great planet earth "
Best seller.. In 1970's.
---
Later on, he told the year of "end time/last days" during the interview.
I was very disappointed after reading about that.
---
He was not the only one to get into that.
It seems that they are lured to making
date setting/prediction.

redleghunter said:

I really have not heard of secret rapture or two. If billions or millions are missing one day, there goes the secret right?

The fact is no one can produce a concrete certainty (time/space) of when Christ will come and raise the dead and seized and transform those who remain. Acts 1 Jesus makes this clear. We waste a lot of 'ink' on this when the command is "Be ready!"

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It is the pre-mid-post millennial version. Here is an explanation.
What is the concept of a secret rapture?

Residential Bob said:

Or we can just make this thread about the rapture.

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Sure we can. I'm interested in knowing what you think the rapture is all about.

Because we know "it" will happen but it is a question of "when."

Pioneer3mm said:

I remember the book by Hal Linsey.
" the late great planet earth "
Best seller.. In 1970's.
---
Later on, he told the year of "end time/last days" during the interview.
I was very disappointed after reading about that.
---
He was not the only one to get into that.
It seems that they are lured to making
date setting/prediction.

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Did he actually predict a date and time?

Residential Bob said:

I don't think the rapture is about anything. It ain't happenin'. It's foolishness.

You're trying to engage me in a discussion we cannot have.

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Sure we can engage because 'rapture' is in the very Scriptures you quote.

Residential Bob said:

Okay, it's about foolishness. It's conjures cartoonish imagery of people floating up into space.

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What's foolish or cartoonish about what was Holy Spirit revealed to the apostle Paul?


1 Thessalonians 4: NASB


13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.



Again being caught up (verse 17) is 'harpazo' in the Greek:


ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).



Same verse 17 in the Latin Vulgate:


deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus


Bolded in Latin is rapiemur and where the term rapture comes from.


So "rapture" is in the Bible and it entails the dead in Christ will rise first and then those of us who are still alive will be 'caught up' literally seized up together with the raised in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


That's not Hal Lindsey nor Left Behind fiction books. That's apostolic teachings right up there quoted for all to see.


So it's not a matter of "the rapture is false" but the theories behind the timing of the rapture are just that theories.


Now most historic churches see the passage in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 as the Second coming of Christ combined with the Resurrection of the righteous. I believe this view is the most cautious and orthodox of all views.


Therefore, most Historic Futurists see the Rapture=the Resurrection AND Second Coming of Christ.

Residential Bob said:

I didn't say the Apostle Paul was foolish. I said the rapture was foolish.

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Can you address what I posted?

Christ’s last words on the subject...

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

He did not disclose -pre -post or -mid. He said as a thief. In normal times, like unto Lot, like unto Noah.

Residential Bob said:

I didn't say the Apostle Paul was foolish. I said the rapture was foolish.

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Noah was considered foolish, until the flood came.
Lot was considered foolish, until the fire began to rain down.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. - Like 17

rockytopva said:

Christ’s last words on the subject...

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

He did not disclose -pre -post or -mid. He said as a thief. In normal times, like unto Lot, like unto Noah.

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Indeed in 1 Thessalonians 4 before we get to the words for resurrection and 'caught up' we see:

1 Thessalonians 4: NASB

1Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. 2For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. 3For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. 7For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. 8So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

9Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; 10for indeed you do practice it toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, to excel still more, 11and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you, 12so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

To Redleghunter:
---
Hal Linsey predicted,
" End time would happen before Dec. 31, 1988. "
He is still around, right?
He might deny that, though.
---
As said before, he was not the only one.
Others made predictions/date setting.
- You can search and find info. - online.
including Hal Linsey 's prediction.
**I read about his prediction in 1980's.
---
One aspect of "End Time" is on numbers and calculation.
It is inevitable that they can get into making prediction/date setting.
---
More discernment is needed when you get into
"End time"discussion.

Blessings,

Pioneer3mm said:

To Redleghunter:
---
Hal Linsey predicted,
" End time would happen before Dec. 31, 1988. "
He is still around, right?
He might deny that, though.
---
As said before, he was not the only one.
Others made predictions/date setting.
- You can search and find info. - online.
including Hal Linsey 's prediction.
**I read about his prediction in 1980's.
---
One aspect of "End Time" is on numbers and calculation.
It is inevitable that they can get into making prediction/date setting.
---
More discernment is needed when you get into
"End time"discussion.

Blessings,

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Thank you. I never knew he made an iron clad prediction.

And yes indeed when we deal with eschatology we should deal with what we know is revealed. Jesus is Coming Again.

Residential Bob said:

To derive from these passages the idea of a “taking up” of the church, we must approach them with preconceived notions rooted in tradition and popular culture rather than in the Scriptures themselves.

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I have heard about the Rapture, for a while, without anyone that I remember going into detail in the scriptures. But I have found things I can match with the idea of the Rapture.

For one thing > it is understood by some number that the Rapture means the resurrection of Jesus Christ's Bride-church. And Paul refers to "the resurrection", in 2 Timothy 2:18. He is saying the resurrection is not "already past", here in this scripture. So, I understand Paul is talking about what certain people understand to be the Rapture gathering of Christ's church.

Plus, in Revelation 20:6 John says there will be the "first resurrection" and the ones blessed to be in this resurrection will reign with Jesus for a thousand years. So, I see this can fit with there being the Rapture, the resurrection of the righteous, before the thousand-year millennial reign of Jesus.

And Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 explains what will happen when Jesus comes for His church. We will be resurrected. This also is what is meant by the term "Rapture". The term Rapture, though, brings out how we will be rejoicing and delighting to be resurrected and sharing with our Groom.

In 1 Corinthians 15:50 Paul says how "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven". So, in order for our bodies to be in the kingdom of heaven, our bodies need to be changed into incorruptible bodies, as happens in the resurrection. And Paul says, here, how this change will take place "in the twinkling of an eye" > 1 Corinthians 15:52.

And then, of course, being in resurrected supernatural bodies, we can rise up above this earth to be with Jesus our Groom.

And this fits with the scripture you have mentioned in Thessalonians >

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. " (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

If the dead rise, this certainly can mean they are being resurrected in supernatural bodies. And Paul says we who are still alive on this earth shall then also be caught up, which can mean we also shall be resurrected > though ones will not have died, their bodies shall be changed into an incorruptible state supernatural and therefore resurrected.

And both these areas of scripture talk about the trumpet. Plus, if you look at Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus talks about what will happen along with the loud sound of a trumpet. Ones will be gathered to be with Jesus above the earth. This fits with how they will be resurrected so they have supernatural bodies which can rise and do not require oxygen or warm clothes up there.

So, I offer how these different scriptures which give the basic idea of the Rapture being the resurrection of the ones who are Jesus Christ's church.

Of course, ones have differing details about this, including ones believe that before the greatest tribulation mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24 there will be the Rapture of the church, but then after the tribulation will be the gathering of ones who have gone through the tribulation. So, yes not all agree on certain details.

I'm confused on the usage of the word Iconoclast in the OP.

Also I do agree. Pre trib rapture is a modern invintion. The verse most used to defend it has no indication of being pre tibulation. In fact if it was it would mean Christ returning three times instead of two.