LDS LDS, when did Jesus become God?

Peter1000 said:

So did you read the webster dictionary or did you change the definition of firstborn to fit your narrative? Firstborn means just what it says. It is the first born child of parents. The end.

The mainline Christians have scrambled to find alternative meanings for "firstborn" because it goes against their agenda. But you would never say that the firstborn officer of this company is X. To mean that the highest ranking officer of this company is X.

You would never say President Trump is the firstborn of our country, meaning that President Trump is the leader of our country. So stop with the change of definition.

Jesus has priority because he is the "firstborn" of God and he is the only begotten Son in the flesh. He is sinless and therefore he has priority of all us brothers and sisters who came after him.

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Wrong--firstborn, or the phrase "the beginning", can also mean "the most important one," or the rights and authority of someone. The wording here is not modern American--it is ancient Hebrew--something JS never could comprehend. Seth, though he was the 3rd son born to Adam and Eve, was the firstborn, the beginning. He was the firstborn after Cain was banished from the family, and Abel was dead. Thus he then marked the beginning of the line of man. In the genealogy, Neither Cain nor Able, are mentioned--it goes from Seth to Adam.

Peter1000 said:

What do you think Jesus was saying when he said this:
John 20:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

The way I interpret this is:
My God and my Father is the same God and Father as Jesus's. If we have the same God and Father, that makes us brothers. That is why we can be joint-heirs with our brother Jesus in all that the Father has.

That is why Jesus said God is greater than me, because God the Father is Jesus's God.

That is why Jesus said why callest me good, there is only one that is good and that is God, obviously not speaking of himself, but about his God and our God.

Tell me the way you interpret John 20:17?

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Jesus is the unique ONLY begotten Son of the father, eternally has been God, while all of us saved were adopted into the Family of God!
Jesus took upon Himself limittaions of the flesh, so He decided to not be all knowing while here on earth, but when resurrected to Heaven , reassumed being all knowing again!
And Jesus point to the man asking Him was that if you call Him good, are you seeing Jesus is God?

Phoebe Ann said:

This statement is not true.

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Indeed, as there is no way to support that God has never been less than God, as he was and is eternally God!

BNR32FAN said:

The term firstborn is referring to his human birth from God. He is God’s one and only begotten Son. Jesus is the beginning of all creation because everything that was created was created thru Him. He created everything from nothing. Hence the beginning of creation.

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Jesus as firstborn refers to being exalted in rank and position, as David was called firstborn as King, and yet was really last born!
Nothing to do with Jesus being created, as he is eternally God!

mmksparbud said:

Wrong--firstborn, or the phrase "the beginning", can also mean "the most important one," or the rights and authority of someone. The wording here is not modern American--it is ancient Hebrew--something JS never could comprehend. Seth, though he was the 3rd son born to Adam and Eve, was the firstborn, the beginning. He was the firstborn after Cain was banished from the family, and Abel was dead. Thus he then marked the beginning of the line of man. In the genealogy, Neither Cain nor Able, are mentioned--it goes from Seth to Adam.

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Correct understanding of the term firstborn, as it refers NOT to being a created being, as to Jesus being exalted as head over the Church and as the Creator Himself!

YeshuaFan said:

Jesus as firstborn refers to being exalted in rank and position, as David was called firstborn as King, and yet was really last born!
Nothing to do with Jesus being created, as he is eternally God!

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I agree but the evidence of Jesus being created is pretty compelling. I’ve been really busy working late last night and had to be at work early this morning. I plan to search the scriptures for some really solid evidence that Jesus is in fact God. One thing I’ve found so far is that there is only One God but I still need to find something in the Greek text that irrefutably says that Jesus is God. So far I haven’t actually found anything conclusive in the Greek text. Don’t get me wrong I am a Trinitarian but I need to find concrete evidence.

BNR32FAN said:

I agree but the evidence of Jesus being created is pretty compelling. I’ve been really busy working late last night and had to be at work early this morning. I plan to search the scriptures for some really solid evidence that Jesus is in fact God. One thing I’ve found so far is that there is only One God but I still need to find something in the Greek text that irrefutably says that Jesus is God. So far I haven’t actually found anything conclusive in the Greek text. Don’t get me wrong I am a Trinitarian but I need to find concrete evidence.

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In Hebrews, the father calls Jesus God, Paul in Philippians called Jesus Lord, using same term for God as in the LXX, and both Paul and peter called Jesus our great God and savior! And of course Jesus called Himself I Am!

YeshuaFan said:

In Hebrews, the father calls Jesus God, Paul in Philippians called Jesus Lord, using same term for God as in the LXX, and both Paul and peter called Jesus our great God and savior! And of course Jesus called Himself I Am!

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Can you quote these verses please. I’ve usually relied on John 1 but I’m told that the Bible version used by Jehovah Witness says the Word is a god (lowercase g) where most other versions say the Word was God. The Greek doesn’t use the letter “a” as a word. So when you see in the Bible something written like “Jesus talked to a man” the word “a” is not in the Greek text. In the Greek it’s worded like Jesus talked to man. The problem with the Word being “a god” is the scriptures say there is only One God. All other “gods” are false gods. All prayers and offerings to false gods actually go to demons.

BNR32FAN said:

I agree but the evidence of Jesus being created is pretty compelling. I’ve been really busy working late last night and had to be at work early this morning. I plan to search the scriptures for some really solid evidence that Jesus is in fact God. One thing I’ve found so far is that there is only One God but I still need to find something in the Greek text that irrefutably says that Jesus is God. So far I haven’t actually found anything conclusive in the Greek text. Don’t get me wrong I am a Trinitarian but I need to find concrete evidence.

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Besides all the above there is also this:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Phoebe Ann said:

There are two problems with your claim. The English Bible is a translation of the Greek and the middle easterners sometimes made a child who was not firstborn the heir instead of the one born first.

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You are right, on a rare occasion, especially in Hebrew customs, the firstborn was not righteous enough to obtain the birthright. But that does not take away the distinction of being the "firstborn". That person is still the firstborn, but is not the heir.

Jesus has priority because He has been fully God from everlasting to everlasting. He was always God and is always God.

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We say Jesus has priority because he is the "firstborn", of all of us, his God and his Father is the same Being as my and your God and Father (John 20:17). So he is the "firstborn" son, and we are "born later".

You must keep in mind that "born" does not mean to "come into existence".
For instance, we know that Jesus existed before his incarnation, but from the bible we know he was "born" of Mary. So we know that "born" does not mean to suddenly come into existence.

The second reason Jesus has priority is because he was sinless and eventually was invited to sit with God on his right hand and was given the right and power and authority to create everything.

Remember, "create" does not mean to "make something out of nothing". To us it means to take existing material and create something new and exciting. For instance, Jesus started with an earth that was void and dark and disorganized, and organized it into a living dynamic world with light and atmosphere and grass and trees and shrubs, and animals and finally humans.

Mormons add the words "in the flesh" to Begotten Son because your leaders have claimed that there are other begotten sons including the Pharisees(children of Satan) and all inhabitants in this universe.

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We add the word "in the flesh" because we know that he is not the only son of God. He was the "firstborn" son "in the spirit", which implies that there are many sons and daughters of God "in the spirit".
But he was the only begotten son, "in the flesh", because of all the sons in the flesh, Jesus is the only one that was the literal Son of God "in the flesh". IOW I and all other humans are not literal sons and daughters of God in the flesh, we were procreated by two mortal parents. Only one of us had one mortal parent and one immortal parent and that was Jesus. I hope that helps.[/QUOTE]

mmksparbud said:

Wrong--firstborn, or the phrase "the beginning", can also mean "the most important one," or the rights and authority of someone. The wording here is not modern American--it is ancient Hebrew--something JS never could comprehend. Seth, though he was the 3rd son born to Adam and Eve, was the firstborn, the beginning. He was the firstborn after Cain was banished from the family, and Abel was dead. Thus he then marked the beginning of the line of man. In the genealogy, Neither Cain nor Able, are mentioned--it goes from Seth to Adam.

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Where does it say that Seth was the firstborn?

I will agree that the word "firstborn" and "the beginning" are quite similar, and if the "firstborn" is valiant, it can also mean "the most important one". But for instance, the true firstborn, Cain was a such a heinous murderer and crushed Adam and Eves heart, that he lost his title of heir and possibly even lost his title as firstborn.
Able was dead, and so Seth became the new beginning. So I can see in this instance why Seth, even though he was 3rd child, may have been given the title of "firstborn", and "the beginning" (although it technically was a new beginning), and also "the most important one", because he remained faithful and was the heir of all that Adam had.

So yes, there are variations of how the word "firstborn" is used from the beginning, but it does not stray far from "the first born child, or the beginning child of the parents.

Peter1000 said:

Where does it say that Seth was the firstborn?

I will agree that the word "firstborn" and "the beginning" are quite similar, and if the "firstborn" is valiant, it can also mean "the most important one". But for instance, the true firstborn, Cain was a such a heinous murderer and crushed Adam and Eves heart, that he lost his title of heir and possibly even lost his title as firstborn.
Able was dead, and so Seth became the new beginning. So I can see in this instance why Seth, even though he was 3rd child, may have been given the title of "firstborn", and "the beginning" (although it technically was a new beginning), and also "the most important one", because he remained faithful and was the heir of all that Adam had.

So yes, there are variations of how the word "firstborn" is used from the beginning, but it does not stray far from "the first born child, or the beginning child of the parents.

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I never said he was! He became heir --the firstborn--with the death of Abel and the banishment of Cain.
I said the genealogies go from Seth to Adam--Cain is not mentioned.

mmksparbud said:

Besides all the above there is also this:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

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In Hebrew Language for thousands of years even more proof, unshakeable proof, that Jesus is God, One with the Father, eternally without beginning and without end, uncreated.

BNR32FAN said:

Can you quote these verses please. I’ve usually relied on John 1 but I’m told that the Bible version used by Jehovah Witness says the Word is a god (lowercase g) where most other versions say the Word was God. The Greek doesn’t use the letter “a” as a word. So when you see in the Bible something written like “Jesus talked to a man” the word “a” is not in the Greek text. In the Greek it’s worded like Jesus talked to man. The problem with the Word being “a god” is the scriptures say there is only One God. All other “gods” are false gods. All prayers and offerings to false gods actually go to demons.

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Titus 2;13
2 Peter 1:1
Philippians 2:11
Both Paul and peter in first 2 called Jesus both God and savior, as per Granville-Sharp rule, the noun Jesus receives both names being used!
Paul in Philippians called Jesus Kurious which was the LLX name for Yahweh!