Only if you use a Catholic definition of justification.What you've articulated in this sentence is the Roman Catholic view.
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Only if you use a Catholic definition of justification.What you've articulated in this sentence is the Roman Catholic view.
Only if you use a Catholic definition of justification.
I actually think there's an ambiguity here. To some extent we are forensically judged innocent because Christ died for us. But in Paul I think there's also an implication that justification changes us through of our union with Christ. Of course the change is because we are now united to Christ through the Holy Spirit, not because we're somehow made perfect in ourselves.
To deal with the passages you quote, we first need to understand what the righteousness of God is. As Luther discovered, it is not God’s own moral perfection, but rather his commitment to justify us. I’m not sure whether Luther saw the OT context of this, but the prophets saw God’s righteousness as his covenantal commitment to save Israel even though Israel was unfaithful.
This is from James Dunn’s commentary on Rom 1:17:
“God is “righteous” when he fulfills the obligations he took upon himself to be Israel’s God, that is, to rescue Israel and punish Israel’s enemies (e.g., Exod 9:27; 1 Sam 12:7; Dan 9:16; Mic 6:5)—“righteousness” as “covenant faithfulness” (3:3–5, 25; 10:3; also 9:6 and 15:8). Particularly in the Psalms and Second Isaiah the logic of covenant grace is followed through with the result that righteousness and salvation become virtually synonymous: the righteousness of God as God’s act to restore his own and to sustain them within the covenant (Ps 31:1; 35:24; 51:14; 65:5; 71:2, 15; 98:2; 143:11; Isa 45:8, 21; 46:13; 51:5, 6, 8; 62:1–2; 63:1, 7; in the DSS see particularly 1QS 11.2–5, 12–15; 1QH 4.37; 11.17–18, 30–31; elsewhere see, e.g., Bar 5:2, 4, 9; 1 Enoch 71.14; Apoc. Mos. 20.1; 4 Ezra 8:36;”
I think where Wright muddies things up there by shifting the emphasis to transformation.
Lutherans, for instance, don't deny that people are changed ontologically, we just insist that isn't the grounds for the forgiveness of sins.
Let me start by saying that I think there are lots of odd things in Wright's book on justification. I'm not defending Wright as a whole, but just his understanding of the righteousness of God.I think where Wright muddies things up there by shifting the emphasis to transformation.
Lutherans, for instance, don't deny that people are changed ontologically, we just insist that isn't the grounds for the forgiveness of sins.
Of course no one can obtain righteousness through the Law. I agree completely. Indeed I think it’s you who are requiring legal righteousness. You’re just requiring it from Jesus, to be imputed to us. I’m rejecting the whole thing. I don’t think God requires legal righteousness in the first place. He requires humility and repentance when we sin, and is perfectly willing to forgive. I think the idea that Christ’s righteousness is imputed is based on a misunderstanding of the character of God, as taught by Jesus.Is this what you are missing in your theology. Nobody can obtain righteousness through (Mosaic) Law! Which is why God made a Promise to Adam & Eve, and Abraham; a Covenant of Grace.
Let me start by saying that I think there are lots of odd things in Wright's book on justification. I'm not defending Wright as a whole, but just his understanding of the righteousness of God.
Let me start by saying that I think there are lots of odd things in Wright's book on justification. I'm not defending Wright as a whole, but just his understanding of the righteousness of God.
There’s change and there’s change. In the Catholic model, particularly before Trent, justification was a process, which included both what we call justification and sanctification. Thus justification depended upon (indeed was) continued moral success. That’s not what I mean by change in this context.
Paul says we are justified by faith. Why? He doesn’t give an explicit ordo salutis, but what I understand is that by faith we grasp Christ, and thus die and rise to new life. It only makes sense to think of faith as justifying if it connects us to Christ, on whose action justification is ultimately based.
I think dying and rising with Christ is a change. It’s what Jesus often called repentance, a change in our allegiance and the direction of our lives. But it is not moral achievement, though moral achievement should follow.
I think Paul means that we are justified by faith because it unites us to Christ, and his death and resurrection for us.
In this analysis, righteousness is purely imputed, based on the fact that, in faith, we are Christ's people.
As far as I can tell, Calvin agrees with the previous sentence. However he would say that this happens because God imputes Christ’s righteousness to us, and I would say that this happens because God forgives all of Christ’s people. (I note by the way that Calvin considers justification and forgiveness pretty close to synonymous.)
The difference is that traditional Protestantism thinks God can’t forgive without punishment and can only accept moral perfection (even if it’s not ours), which I think this contradicts both the prophets and Jesus. God is happy to forgive anyone who is repentant, which (with a proper definition of repent) means anyone who is a follower of Christ.
The difference seems to come down to Luther. While he understood that the righteousness of God aimed to save us rather than condemn us, he still didn’t understand that this was based on the fact that God is shown to be righteous in carrying out his covenant commitment to save his people. Hence we have a kind of compromise that combines a proper understanding of God's goal with the idea that God can only accept moral perfection, even in forgiveness.
ladodgers6 says
Of course no one can obtain righteousness through the Law. I agree completely. Indeed I think it’s you who are requiring legal righteousness. You’re just requiring it from Jesus, to be imputed to us. I’m rejecting the whole thing. I don’t think God requires legal righteousness in the first place. He requires humility and repentance when we sin, and is perfectly willing to forgive. I think the idea that Christ’s righteousness is imputed is based on a misunderstanding of the character of God, as taught by Jesus.
Sure I understand that. But this is a non-Christian concept of dignity. It's the Muslim view that it's beneath God's dignity to become human, or Peter's that Jesus shouldn't wash feet. In the NT the cross is God's glory.I don't think the point is that God can't accept less than perfection (suggesting an inability or unwillingness to forgive), but that it is not fitting his justice to do so. It's a question of dignity rather than strict necessity. 17th century legal metaphors might obscure this reality, of course.
I'm not going to give you a whole theology in one post, so let me deal with one question. What did Paul mean byOr why Christ had to come in the likeness of sinful flesh? Why Christ had to condemned sin in the flesh?
I'm not going to give you a whole theology in one post, so let me deal with one question. What did Paul mean by
"For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."
First, it's clear both from the passage and the context that Paul is speaking of sin as a power that attacks us. God is condemning sin, not sinners. So sin is viewed as a kind of power.
By flesh, Paul normally doesn't mean simply our physical bodies, but that part of us that is subject to sin. That's why Jesus is in the "likeness" of flesh. It's not that his body is only a likeness of a human body, but that he isn't really flesh in the sense Paul normally uses it.
In Rom 6, Paul says that we die with Christ to sin and rise to new life. That's not the language of imputation, but of incorporation. That is, we are "in Christ" and die with him and are raised with him. Paul surely means that sin is condemned through Christ's death and resurrection.
But HOW does Christ do this???Dunn comments on this passage: "That could suggest a divine strategy whereby the enticingness of the flesh’s weakness was used to draw sin to the flesh and so to engage sin’s power that the destruction of the flesh became also the destruction of that power. In the most dramatic reversal of all time (quite literally), death is transformed from sin’s ally and final triumph (5:21) into sin’s own defeat and destruction."
Huh??? So are you saying that their is no propitiation of sin before God by our sins being imputed to Christ? Who is the sacrificial Paschal Lamb, who takes away the sins of the world? I have no idea what you mean by, "That's why our righteousness is imputed". Do you mean, that's why Christ's righteousness is imputed?This is close to the early church's understanding of the atonement, though it's a bit anthropomorphic for me. But I would agree that sin is condemned by being defeated. It is defeated because its greatest act is killing Christ, and that fails. Christ is risen again, and in union with him not just Christ but the rest of sin's victims are raised to new life, being snatched away from the power of sin. (This is certainly what Paul says in Rom 6. However it has to be qualified by his understanding that while we are no longer fully controlled by sin, in this life its influence remains. That's why our righteousness is imputed.)
I should clear that the connection with Rom 6 is mine. Dunn's interpretation is based on the translation "God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering" (NIV), and ends up very close to Calvin's (see below). I'm basing my interpretation in KJV/NRSV. The Greek is literally "concerning sin." KJV says simply "for sin," NRSV "to deal with sin." The NIV translation is based on the fact that the two Greek words for "concerning sin" are used in OT passages about sacrifice. That seems pretty weak to me. KJV, NRSV, ESV, CEB doin't accept that. NIV, Holman and NASB do, though NASB puts "as an offering for" in italics, indicating that the translator added them.
FYI, I reject the canons of Trent you've quoted. I agree that justification is unmerited, and imputed for those with faith. The real issue here isn't justification but atonement. Obviously Christ's death was a sacrifice, but I don't believe it was a propitiation, because God doesn't need to be propitiated. The Greek word translated propitiation in three passages in the KJV NT is not a specific term for that, but is a more general term better translated atonement.
FYI, the KJV uses propitiation 3 times in the NT and 3 in the Apocrypha, but none in the OT. It uses atonement 82 times in the OT and 3 in the Apocrypha, but none in the NT.
It's worth noting that this has gone beyond the topic of this thread, since Wright accepts penal substitution (despite what you often hear about him from conservatives).
Sure I understand that. But this is a non-Christian concept of dignity. It's the Muslim view that it's beneath God's dignity to become human, or Peter's that Jesus shouldn't wash feet. In the NT the cross is God's glory.