"YE SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING ON CLOUDS OF HEAVEN"

Was Matt 26:64 fulfilled in the 1st century?


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LittleLambofJesus

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Was this fulfilled or is it future or other?
How many High Priests and regular Priests were there during the 1st century? Thanks


Matthew 26:
63 But Jesus remained silent.
Then the high priest said to Him, “I charge You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64 “Thou say,” Jesus answered.
“But I say to all of ye, from now on ye shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of the heaven.”

Mark 14:
61 But Jesus remained silent and made no reply.
Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
62“I AM,” said Jesus,
“and ye will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of the heaven.”

Revelation 1:7
Behold! He is coming with the clouds and shall be seeing Him every eye even/also those who Him they pierce
and shall be grieving over Him all the tribes of the land. Yea, Amen.

Zechariah 12:
10 Then I will pour out on the house of David and on the residents of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and prayer, and they will look on Me, the One they have pierced.
They will mourn for Him as one mourns an only child, and weep bitterly for Him as one grieves a firstborn son.
11 On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.



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JohnB445

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Revelation is a book for a future time. Mostly for both Jews and Gentiles, the Jews are going to need the Bible during the time of Jacob's trouble (Tribulation).

They would need to refuse to take the mark, and refuse to worship the beast (Anti-Christ that is claiming to be the Messiah during tribulation period).

So they are not saved by faith alone, because if they take the mark then they lose their salvation obviously. When people take all the scriptures and put it in a blender of theology you get scripture that contradicts.

We don't need to build a Ark for a flood, or worry about eating from a Tree that causes death. Along with sacrificing a lamb to atone for sin.
 
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mkgal1

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How many High Priests and regular Priests were there during the 1st century? Thanks
I've been wanting to study that (and follow the line). From what I recall, the office of the priesthood was taken from the house of Eli for their disobedience - but I'm not clear about the line of priests in the entirety.

We know who the High Priest is now, though :)
 
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Tone

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Stephen did:

"And he, being filled with faith and The Spirit of Holiness, gazed into Heaven and he saw the glory of God, and Yeshua as he stood at the right side of God"
Acts 7:55

John did:

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter…"
--Revelation 4:1-3

Paul was taken there:

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven…"
--2 Corinthians 12:2-4

Could these be fulfillments within the first century and then maybe there will be more fulfillment in the future?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I've been wanting to study that (and follow the line). From what I recall, the office of the priesthood was taken from the house of Eli for their disobedience - but I'm not clear about the line of priests in the entirety.

We know who the High Priest is now, though :)
I re-read thru Josephus again to get an idea of how many priests were slaughtered in and around Jerusalem.........

Yahweh seems to affirm here that never again will He recognize any Priests in Jerusalem:


Malachi 2
1 “And now, O priests, this command is for you.
2 If you will not listen, if you will not take it to heart to give honor to My name, says Yahweh of hosts, then I will send the curse upon you and I will curse your blessings.
Indeed, I have already cursed them, because you do not lay it to heart.
3 Behold, I will rebuke your offspring, and spread dung on your faces, the dung of your offerings, and you shall be taken away with it
9 and so I make you despised and abased before all the people, inasmuch as you do not keep my ways but show partiality in your instruction.”

Malachi 2:3 is especially somber as I read thru Josephus, the Jews [including the Priests] had to eat animal dung during the famine of the siege in 70ad:.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

............Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;


I highlighted the places where Priests are mentioned and it appears there were quite a few. Perhaps a lot of them came from other parts of Israel to keep the Passover Feast?

.........The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness. Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered. The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts..............

At this critical and alarming c onjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman an army was approaching the city. The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ..........................

....while Simon Goras chose this melancholy and awful period to manifest the deep Malignity and cruelty of his nature in the execution of the High Priest Matthias, and his three sons, whom he caused to be condemned as favourers of the Romans................

The old and the young, the common people and the priests, those who surrendered and those who resisted, were equally involved in this horrible and indiscriminate carnage. Meanwhile the Temple continued burning, until at length, vast as was its size,...........

For five days after the destruction of the Temple, the priests who had escaped, sat, pining with hunger, on the top of one of its broken walls; at length, they came down, and humbly asked the pardon of Titus, which, however, he refused to grant them, saying, that, "as the Temple, for the sake of which he would have spared them, was destroyed, it was but fit that its priests should parish also:" -whereupon he commanded that they should be put to death. .........


Nah 3:3
Horsemen charge with bright sword and glittering spear.
There is a multitude of slain,
A great number of bodies,
Countless corpses—
They stumble over the corpses—

Jer 19:7
“And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place, and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies and by the hands of those who seek their lives;
their corpses I will give as meat for the birds of the heaven and for the beasts of the earth.

Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread

Isa 66:24
“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”


Rev 18:13
“and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots,
and bodies and souls of men.


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LittleLambofJesus

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Matthew and Mark use the plural form for G3507.

Mark uses the word "in", as does Luke 21:27

Matthew 24:30
and then shall be appearing the sign of the Son of the Man in heaven;
and then shall all the tribes of the land be grieving<2875>,
and they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming upon<1909> the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;
Mark 13:26
'And then they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in<1722> clouds with much power and glory
Mark 14:62
Jesus said, “I AM.
And ye shall be seeing the Son of the Man sitting out of the rights<1188> of the Power, and coming with<3326> the clouds of the heaven.”

The plural of G3507 is use in only 1 verse of Revelation:

Revelation 1:7
Behold! He is coming with<3326> clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced<1574> Him.
And all the tribes of the land shall be grieving over Him. Yea, Amen.


Luke uses the singular form of G3507


Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in<1722> a cloud, with power and much glory


That exact form is used in 2 other verses:

1Co 10:2
all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,


And with the 2 witnesses. Interesting

Rev 11:12
And they hear a great Voice<5456> from out of the heaven saying to them, “ascend ye here!”
And they ascended into the heaven in a cloud,
and their enemies saw them.


Greek Inflections of νεφέλη
mGNT — 25x in 7 unique form(s) TR — 26x in 8 unique form(s)
νεφέλαι — 2x
νεφέλαις — 2x
νεφέλη — 5x
νεφέλῃ — 3x
νεφέλην — 6x
νεφέλης — 3x
νεφέλης, — 1x
νεφελῶν — 4x

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LittleLambofJesus

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Luke uses the singular form of G3507

Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in<1722> a cloud, with power and much glory

That exact form is used in 2 other verses:

1Co 10:2
all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

And with the 2 witnesses. Interesting

Rev 11:12
And they hear a great Voice<5456> from out of the heaven saying to them, “ascend ye here!”
And they ascended into the heaven in a cloud,
and their enemies saw them.
=================================================

This form of G3507 is used at the transfiguration the the Great Harvest...

Mat 17:5
While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”
Mar 9:7
And a cloud came and overshadowed them; and a voice came out of the cloud,
Luk 9:35
And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son.[fn] Hear Him!”

Revelation:

Rev 14:
15 - And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You[fn] to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
16 - So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

19
So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Joe 3:13
Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe.
Come, go down;
For the winepress is full, The vats overflow—
For their wickedness is great.”
 
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Douggg

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63 But Jesus remained silent.
Then the high priest said to Him, “I charge You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64 “Thou say,” Jesus answered.
“But I say to all of ye, from now on ye shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of the heaven.”
I think I would look at sixth seal events for seeing Jesus before the throne of God, near the end of the 7 year 70th week.

And Matthew 23:39 that Jerusalem and the Jews will not see Jesus again until they say blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.

It all has to do with end times events.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I think I would look at sixth seal events for seeing Jesus before the throne of God, near the end of the 7 year 70th week.

And Matthew 23:39 that Jerusalem and the Jews will not see Jesus again until they say blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.

It all has to do with end times events.
Yeah. I have to admit that Matt 23:39 and Luke 13:34 does give me a few problems tying that in with 70 Jerusalem and Revelation, but those other verses around it I can, as most are in agreement that Luke 21 is 70ad.......

I will have to work on those 2 verses when time allows.....
Wasn't their house of prayer and Jerusalem desolated in 70ad?

Mat 21:13
And He said to them, “It is written,
My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.' ”
Mat 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38“See! Your house[Temple?] is left to you desolate;
39“for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ ”[fn]

Luk 19:46

saying to them, “It is written,
My house is a house of prayer,' but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.' ”
Luke 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!
35 “See! Your house[Temple?] is left to you desolate;
and assuredly,[fn] I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ ”[fn]

Reve 18:19
And they cast dust upon their heads and cried out, lamenting and mourning, saying "woe! woe! the City, the great, in which are rich all the ones having the ships in the sea out of the preciousness of Her,
that to one hour She was desolated

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Douggg

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Douggg

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Reve 18:19
And they cast dust upon their heads and cried out, lamenting and mourning, saying "woe! woe! the City, the great, in which are rich all the ones having the ships in the sea out of the preciousness of Her,
that to one hour She was desolated
When we get to Revelation 18:19, I have in the past tried to figure out a literal city that would fit. I thought about maybe NYC or Rome. It doesn't fit Jerusalem because Jersualem doesn't have a trading port, nor the wealth. But places like NYC can't be said to be responsible for ...24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. So NYC is not a fit either.

So in my rationale, I came up with that the great city being describe is the "likening" of Satan's invisible kingdom of Babylon the Great to a great city that gets destroyed. There really isn't any actual literal city like NYC, Rome, or Jerusalem being destroyed. It is talking about the dismantling of Satan's kingdom overshadowing the earth.

When it says Babylon is fallen, is fallen,. it is referring to when Michael and his angels cast Satan his angels from the second heaven down to earth. That's the first step when the 7th angel sounds his trumpet.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
Wasn't their house of prayer and Jerusalem desolated in 70ad?
Yes. I don't think anyone would disagree with you on that.
Luke also has 3 Temple/Jerusalem discourses and appears to talk more about the 70ad Temple/Jerusalem than the other 2, and from what I am learning, is that his discourses seem to tie in better to Revelation than the other 2.

LUKE 19, LUKE 21, LUKE 23, REVELATION JERUSALEM 70AD

Luke 19:41
And as He nears<1448>, beholding the City,
and He laments<2799> over Her,

Luke 21:
20 Whenever yet ye may be seeing Jerusalem surrounded<2124> by armies<4760>,

And His final last words as He was taken to the Cross. This is the only verse in the entire NT that has the phrase "daughters of Jerusalem". [used in SoS in OT]

Luke 23:
27 And a great multitude of the people followed<190> Him, and of women, who were wailing<2875> and lamenting<2354> for Him.
28 And having turned to them, Jesus said, Daughters of Jerusalem! do not be weeping<2799> for Me,
rather be weeping<2799> for yourselves and for your children.
29 That behold! are coming days in which they shall be declaring, ‘blessed/happy are the barren ones<4723> and the wombs<2836> which not bear, and breasts that never nursed<5142>.’
30 Then they shall be beginning to be saying to say to the mountains, 'Fall upon us!' and to the hills, 'Cover us!'
31 That if in the wet<5200> wood<3586> these they are doing, in the dry<3584> what my be becoming

Revelation 6:16
and they say to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!


.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Yes, Jesus as the Son of Man was God in Flesh and a man of flesh would be coming in the form of Titus and the Roman army.

I keyed in "son of man clould" into a concordance and only 2 verses showed up.
So how can the partial preterists view Luke 21 as 70ad and part of Matthew fulfilled when it clearly shows that event in Revelation 14! Please, someone explain that to me.

Luk 21:27
'And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;
Rev 14:14
And I saw, and lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting like to a son of man,
having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;


quote Dave Watchman said:
That means Matthew 24 is not the same thing as Luke 21.
Luke 21 was inside the Temple in the morning. Jesus was sitting down inside a place called the "women's" court. He had to "look up' to see the poor old widow put money in the treasury which was located around the outside perimeter of that court.

Someone referred me to this site and after looking thru a small part of it and after looking at Luke 21:27 and Revelation 14:14, this could actually be plausible. I just haven't had the time to look at various sites but this one does interest me.

Jesus, the Son of Man, was LITERALLY Seen in the Clouds in A.D. 66 - Revelation Revolution

2 Peter 1:16-18 indicates that the Transfiguration was a Model of the Parousia. This Fact is Confirmed by Yosippon who describes what appears to be the Coming of Christ on the Clouds in a Radiant Form similar to the Description of Christ during the Transfiguration.
The fact that Jesus was expected to appear in the radiant glory of His post-ascension resurrection body at the time of the parousia is also implied in 2 Peter 1:16-18:

For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, ‘This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased’— and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

According to Tacitus, Lightning struck the Temple around the Time of the Second Coming in fulfillment of Matthew 24:27...............



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Erik Nelson

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Yes, Jesus as the Son of Man was God in Flesh and a man of flesh would be coming in the forum of Titus and the Roman army.

I keyed in "son of man clould" into a concordance and only 2 verses showed up.
So how can the partial preterists view Luke 21 as 70ad and part of Matthew fulfilled when it clearly shows that event in Revelation 14! Please, someone explain that to me.

Luk 21:27
'And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;
Rev 14:14
And I saw, and lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting like to a son of man,
having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;


quote Dave Watchman said:
That means Matthew 24 is not the same thing as Luke 21.
Luke 21 was inside the Temple in the morning. Jesus was sitting down inside a place called the "women's" court. He had to "look up' to see the poor old widow put money in the treasury which was located around the outside perimeter of that court.

Someone referred me to this site and after looking thru a small part of it and after looking at Luke 21:27 and Revelation 14:14, this could actually be plausible. I just haven't had the time to look at various sites but this one does interest me.

Jesus, the Son of Man, was LITERALLY Seen in the Clouds in A.D. 66 - Revelation Revolution

2 Peter 1:16-18 indicates that the Transfiguration was a Model of the Parousia. This Fact is Confirmed by Yosippon who describes what appears to be the Coming of Christ on the Clouds in a Radiant Form similar to the Description of Christ during the Transfiguration.
The fact that Jesus was expected to appear in the radiant glory of His post-ascension resurrection body at the time of the parousia is also implied in 2 Peter 1:16-18:

For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, ‘This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased’— and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

According to Tacitus, Lightning struck the Temple around the Time of the Second Coming in fulfillment of Matthew 24:27...............



.
if we follow tradition,, only Luke was written carefully in order, mark was not

if so, a harmonization would move periscopes around to obey look

still maybe Jesus said the same thing over and over.........?
 
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BABerean2

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Zechariah 12:
10 Then I will pour out on the house of David and on the residents of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and prayer, and they will look on Me, the One they have pierced.
They will mourn for Him as one mourns an only child, and weep bitterly for Him as one grieves a firstborn son.
11 On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.

The scripture above was fulfilled at Calvary, and on the Day of Pentecost.

Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."


Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Revelation is a book for a future time. Mostly for both Jews and Gentiles, the Jews are going to need the Bible during the time of Jacob's trouble (Tribulation).

They would need to refuse to take the mark, and refuse to worship the beast (Anti-Christ that is claiming to be the Messiah during tribulation period).
So they are not saved by faith alone, because if they take the mark then they lose their salvation obviously. When people take all the scriptures and put it in a blender of theology you get scripture that contradicts.
We don't need to build a Ark for a flood, or worry about eating from a Tree that causes death. Along with sacrificing a lamb to atone for sin.
We and the Jews already have the Bible and the book of Revelation [but the Jews do not read our NT].
Here is what one Jewish historian commented about that:

What Jews Can Learn from the New Testament | My Jewish Learning
A rich source for understanding the history of Judaism and the history of anti-Semitism.
By Martin I. Lockshin

It is daunting to think of the number of books a Jew “must” read in order to achieve Jewish literacy. With trepidation I suggest yet another volume to add to that list: the New Testament (NT).

Anyone who lives in a country with a Christian majority (such as the United States or Canada) should acquire basic knowledge of the foundational literature of the dominant faith. Students of the arts need to know stories like the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32), the raising of Lazarus (John 11:1-44), and the “passion” of Jesus (i.e. his trial, suffering, and death) or they will be at a disadvantage when studying many works of literature, art, and music. But there are also reasons why Jews, specifically, would gain from study of the New Testament. It is a rich source for a better understanding of Jewish history, Jewish thought, Jewish law, and the history of anti-Semitism.

Almost all of the books of the NT were written by Jews, many of them during one of the most eventful periods of Jewish history: just before and just after the destruction of the Second Temple (in 70 C.E.). Very few Jewish writings from that century survive, and none by the rabbis, the representatives of what soon became normative Judaism, since the rabbis of that period felt that their teachings had to remain oral (a position they eventually abandoned). So really the only surviving religious books written by Jews in the first and second centuries are a few of the later Dead Sea Scrolls and the NT................................

Martin I. Lockshin,
Ph.D., is a professor at the Centre for Jewish Studies at York University in Toronto. He received rabbinic ordination after studying at the yeshiva founded by Rav Kook in Jerusalem.
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And it appears Israel's PM just became a Preterist.........

Prophecies of Ezekiel 37

In a stunning and remarkable moment, Netanyahu also declared to the people of Europe and the world that the prophecies of Ezekiel 37 have been fulfilled. The Holocaust, he said, represented the "dry bones" and "graves" of the Jewish people, and out of that horror the State of Israel was resurrected, just as the Lord said would happen through the Hebrew Prophet Ezekiel. Rarely has any world leader given a major address on an international stage declaring End Times prophecies from the Bible have come true. But that is exactly what Netanyahu did. - Joel Rosenberg
NTEB: God's Prophetical Promise To Return The Jews To Israel

I though this was relevant for Christians to read as a part of fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy.

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Erik Nelson

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THE DISCIPLES’ CONFUSION AT OLIVET (4)

Numerous signs indicated the approach. Of the destruction of the physical temple in 70 AD. The Christian community in Jerusalem was able to read the signs and escaped to Pella.

Conversely, the physical second coming of Christ at Final Judgement at the end of Earth. Time will come without warning it will surprise the whole of humanity. They will have no idea what is approaching and will be eating drinking dancing merrymaking when suddenly out of the clear blue sky? And Heaven beyond emerges fire from Heaven, revelation 20:9.

Accordingly, the Olivet discourse appears to be discussing 2 separate events. The destruction of the temple in 70. AD. And then moves on to final judgment at the end of earth time.
 
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I've been wanting to study that (and follow the line). From what I recall, the office of the priesthood was taken from the house of Eli for their disobedience - but I'm not clear about the line of priests in the entirety.

We know who the High Priest is now, though :)
According to Samaritan sources a civil war broke out between the sons of Ithamar (Eli) and the sons of Phinehas {a son of Eleazar…} which resulted in the division of those who followed Eli and those who followed High Priest Uzzi ben Bukki at Mount Gerizim Bethel (a third group followed neither)...

under Eli and his sons that the Ark was lost to Israel in a battle with the Philistines at Aphek:

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  • Shechem in Manasseh (north)
    • Mt. Gerizim & Mt. Ebal
    • Joseph's bones burial
    • Uzzi ben Bukki ben Eleazar (cp. Eliezer / Eleazar, younger son of Moses)
    • burned down under Abimelech c.1100 BC
    • associated with Kohath
      • charged with managing the Ark & interior cultic objects
  • Shiloh in Ephraim (south)
    • birthplace of Joshua, Jeroboam
    • Eli ben Ithamar & Samuel
      • Ahijah who supported Jeroboam vs. Rehoboam son of Solomon
      • E-source of Torah (according to JEDP documentary hypothesis)
    • associated with Gershon (cp. Gershom, elder son of Moses) & Merari (father of Moshe)
    • charged with managing the Tabernacle & exterior cultic objects

Abimelech desecrated Shechem around 1125-1100 BC, whereas Priest Eli lived around 1100-1050 BC, contemporary with Samuel & Saul. So, it would seem that in the wake of the devastation, Shechem suffered loss of status & influence. The Ark was "transferred" to Shiloh and entrusted to those to whom it had never been Divinely entrusted.

So, the Philistine capture of the Ark at Aphek c.1025 BC could be construed as God's Judgement, taking the Ark away from those to whom He had never charged it in the first place???
 
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