All4Christ

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@BNR32FAN make sure to look at the grammatical structure, not just the word. In Greek, the grammar can change the meaning. It’s a critical part of understanding the meaning behind the Greek words in an interlinear Bible. Also, understand the context surrounding it and the structure of the Greek language.
 
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All4Christ

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For example, context shows that the [sons of] zebedee isn’t just “The Zebedee”. The tense of Zebedee shows that it is saying “of Zebedee”. The tense of Theos is not “of God” - it is just God. Anytime it says son of God, the word is theou (of God) not Theos. Consider the words around it to get the full context.

I’m on my phone, so it is hard to type the Greek words. Later when I am home and at a computer, I will get the Greek phrasing of the words.
 
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All4Christ

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OK, quick lesson:

In Ancient Greek, the genitive often is translated with the proposition "of" in English (or the possessive case).

A few examples:

Nation
ἔθνος (nominative) "nation" nominative, as in "γὰρ τὸ ἔθνος ἡμῶν καὶ" - for he loves our nation and it was he who built (Luke 7:5)
ἔθνους (genitive) "of nation", as in "ἐκ παντὸς ἔθνους καὶ φυλῶν" - of all nations and [all] tribes

Hephaestus
Ήφαιστος
- Hephaestus (nominative noun)
Ἡφαίστου - "of Hephaestus", as in "Ναός του Ηφαίστου" "the temple of Hephaestus"

Prophet
Ἰωνᾶ τοῦ προφήτου - "of the prophet" as in the sign of the prophet Jonah (Matthew 12:39)
Οὐκ ἔστιν προφήτης ἄτιμος εἰ - nominative for "prophet" as in "Οὐκ ἔστιν προφήτης ἄτιμος εἰ" - said to them, "a prophet" is not without honor

Zebedee
Ζεβεδαῖος
(nominative - proper name of Zebedee)
Ζεβεδαίου (genitive - "of Zebedee")
Examples: τοῦ Ζεβεδαίου the [son] of Zebedee (Matthew 4:21): Note that "son" is implied.
δύο υἱοὺς Ζεβεδαίου the sons of Zebedee (Matthew 26:37): note that this time son is written out. Both usages are common in the Bible for nouns in the genitive case (including and omitting a term prior to "of"). This happens to many other words besides "son"


All that said, let's take a look at God

θεός - Theos - Nominative for God as in "ἡμῶν ὁ θεός" - 'being interpreted is, God with us.' Matthew 1:23
θεοῦ - Genitive for "of God" as in "πνεῦμα τοῦ θεοῦ καταβαῖνον ὡσεὶ" - 'the spirit of God descending' Matthew 3:16


Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός
Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me"
Note that it is "theos" not "theou", indicating that it is the nominative.


One last note - when referencing relationships, such as "the sons of Zebedee", the words indicating the relationship are at times omitted, except for the definite article (i.e. "the" or "ho"). This occurs when it can be known by context or general knowledge. Again, context is key. The case of the noun (genitive, nominative, etc.) is also key to understanding the content.

ὁ Θεός cannot mean Son of God, as Θεός is nominative, not genitive.
 
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ewq1938

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I’m just surprised that so far I’m unable to find anything conclusive that openly states Jesus is God in the Greek text.


I already showed you Greek text that proves Jesus is God. That cannot be disputed. You replied in post 30.
 
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ewq1938

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Again the word ho is before theos.


Only in some manuscripts not in the one the KJV is based on plus it doesn't change the meaning at all if ho precedes Theos or not. The God and God is the same.
 
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hedrick

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I already showed you Greek text that proves Jesus is God. That cannot be disputed. You replied in post 30.
You've shown texts that identify Jesus and God in various ways, but the only straight "I am God" is Rev 21:7. Unfortunately that's probably not spoken by Christ. Neither of my two commentaries on the Rev think it is. The only reference I know of is John 20:28.
 
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But these verses don’t actually say Jesus is God.
I'm still waiting to a reply to my question as to whether you are a trolling Mormon or JW or someone honestly looking for answers.

Seems an awful lot like it to me. Just sayin. :idea:
 
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You've shown texts that identify Jesus and God in various ways, but the only straight "I am God" is Rev 21:7. Unfortunately that's probably not spoken by Christ.

It was spoken by Christ.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Compare to this:

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Christ is also the one to give the water of life:

Joh 4:5 Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.
Joh 4:6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.
Joh 4:7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
Joh 4:8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
Joh 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.


"who it is that saith it to thee". Do you know who said it? God the Son, Jesus was saying it to this woman.


Joh 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Joh 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.


Jesus says he gives of this living water! Not his Father but Jesus himself. In verse 4:10 Jesus says the living water is a gift from God, a clear reference that Jesus is referring to himself as God and as the one who gives the living water.


Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
 
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BNR32FAN

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After centuries of discussion, theologians came to say that the eternal Logos assumed humanity. Not just abstract humanity, but an actual human body, soul, etc, living an actual human life. Once you have the whole theological framework you can speak of Jesus as God, and people know what you mean. They know you don't mean that this human is invisible and immortal, but rather that the humanity is one part of a whole God-man, and this whole person is God.

But the NT writers didn't have this vocabulary, and even if they had, the people they were writing for wouldn't have understood. Thus the NT normally uses "Jesus" to refer specifically to this human existence. For that reason, they used more indirect language to refer to Jesus' identity with God.

I believe Jesus still to this day has the same human body He had since His resurrection. Possibly the same body as when He was born from Mary.
 
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BNR32FAN

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If you can't find sufficient evidence to support the Trinity - you just don't want to find it. The evidence does not depend on John 1 not saying "a" God. John 1 could say "a" God and the Trinity would still be all over the scriptures.

Darn tootin. :)

There are lots of them not the least of which is ""Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."

Just because the Greek word θεός, οῦ, ὁ θεός, οῦ, ὁ (#2316 in Strong's concordance) can be translated either "God" or "a God" hardly negates the scriptural evidence for the Trinity.

The same θεός, οῦ, ὁ θεός, οῦ, ὁ can be noted in virtually all of the references to God in the New Testament. Dozens of examples could be put forth to show the ridiculous nature of doing what the JW's do. But the idea of θεός, οῦ, ὁ θεός, οῦ, ὁ as found all over the book of Colossians should suffice.

"He is the image of the invisible God." (Col. 1:15) What? Is He the image of Himself or the Father? Is He the image of just any old God among billions of Gods or the One True God of the O.T.?

If we applied "a" God to all Strong's #2316 Greek words in the N.T. we'd have a never ending number of eternally existent Gods and we'd all be Mormons.

By the way - with θεός, οῦ, ὁ θεός, οῦ, ὁ as your witness - are you perchance J.W. or Mormon?

Regardless of what you imply in the OP - you seem to be arguing for the legitimacy of their position more than simply looking for corroboration on the doctrine of the Trinity as you say.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one wondering about this.

If one has enough familiarity with this forum he will hardly be naive when it comes to this kind of duplicity.

No I am not a Mormon or JW I’m a nondenominational with a tendency to lean more towards the Orthodox beliefs. If I didn’t want to find evidence to support the Trinity I wouldn’t have started this thread friend. I think you may have misread the OP or something. It appears that you are insinuating that my intention is to refute the Trinity which I have believed in all my life until yesterday when I realized the verses I usually use to defend the Trinity are inconclusive. I study my the Bible on a daily bases because if I can’t prove something with the scriptures then I choose to remain neutral on the subject. I don’t take anybody’s word for anything that I can’t prove by scripture. I won’t try to believe in something that is not conclusive in the scriptures. I have a neutral stance on a few Christian beliefs. One example would be the perpetual virginity of Mary. I can’t prove or disprove it according to the scriptures so I choose not to decide either way. Both sides of the debate have valid points. I’m hoping to find evidence supporting the Trinity so I can continue believing in it and continue teaching it. Honestly I’m a bit insulted that your insinuating that I’m a liar. I don’t think I have said anything proving JW are correct. I don’t even know what Mormons believe. I have said in a few posts that John 1 is conclusive that everything was created thru Jesus and nothing was created without Him and there is only One God. These two points alone refute JW beliefs. Jesus could not have been created if nothing was created except thru Him and Jesus could not be a created god since there is only One God. Your reference to Acts 20:28 is an excellent example. The problem I’ve been having is with ho G3588. I think I’ve been confusing the meaning of the word because of the way it is used in reference to son of someone. For example in reference to the sons of Zebedee the word “son” G5207 is not used. Instead ho is used. Luke 3:37 is a prime example of this.

Luke 3:38

38 the [son] of Cainan, the [son] of Enos, the [son] of Seth, the [son] of Adam, the [son] of God.
38 τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS Ἐνώς (Enosh) G1800 N τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS Σήθ (Seth) G4589 N τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS Ἀδάμ (Adam) G76 N τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS θεοῦ (God) G2316 N-GMS

I’m sorry I’m still learning Greek and it’s still Greek to me.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Why do you think “Ho” before Theos is evidence that it is not referencing “the” God? All it means is “the” - the definitive article. So yes, the sons of Zebedee”....that would be an accurate word (ho).

But the word son or sons G5207 does not appear before Zebedee. Here’s another example in Luke 3:38.
Luke 3:38

38 the [son] of Cainan, the [son] of Enos, the [son] of Seth, the [son] of Adam, the [son] of God.

38 τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS Ἐνώς (Enosh) G1800 N τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS Σήθ (Seth) G4589 N τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS Ἀδάμ (Adam) G76 N τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS θεοῦ (God) G2316 N-GMS

Please forgive me I’m still learning Greek and how it was used. I know ho G3588 does not necessarily mean son but the, that, which, and many others. I do however see ho used even when referring exclusively to God The Father and I’m starting to notice that when referring to the Son of God in all the cases I’ve seen the word Son huiós G5207 is used. So I’m starting to see a pattern here that I didn’t notice this morning. If I can determine that in all cases referencing the Son of God use huiós G5207 then I can determine that the passages that do not have the word huiós are in reference to God regardless of ho. So that’s my goal now but it’s getting late so I’ll have to check that out tomorrow. Thanks for your help friend it is very much appreciated. God bless.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I believe Jesus still to this day has the same human body He had since His resurrection. Possibly the same body as when He was born from Mary.
First sentence correct, Scripturally.
For the rest, keep up you studies seeking the TRUTH from Yahweh.

Looks good so far as I can tell. (not that that means anything, only you seem to be going the right direction. (unlike most all the world) ) .
 
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ewq1938

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For example in reference to the sons of Zebedee the word “son” G5207 is not used. Instead ho is used.

ho is not used in the manuscripts the KJV uses. "the son of" is implied in the Greek regarding a genealogy and simply wasn't needed.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The word, rather article, ὁ is more or less the equivalent of the English article the. It doesn't imply Son of. If that were the intended meaning it should have been written as follows:

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ ἦν ὁ λόγος

Yes I’m starting to see that often when referring to people ho G3588 is often used saying “the Zebedee” not exactly saying “son of Zebedee”. I’m still learning Greek and have a long way to go. Unfortunately I can’t take classes so I’m having to teach myself. I still have more study to do on the term Son of God. So far all the cases I’ve see actually use the word huiós G5207. I think if all cases referring to Son of God use huiós then I can dismiss ho as referring to Son of God since in many cases ho is also used in verses that are only pertaining to The Father Himself. Thanks for your help friend it is very much appreciated. Have a blessed day:)
 
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BNR32FAN

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@BNR32FAN make sure to look at the grammatical structure, not just the word. In Greek, the grammar can change the meaning. It’s a critical part of understanding the meaning behind the Greek words in an interlinear Bible. Also, understand the context surrounding it and the structure of the Greek language.

Yes I’m having to teach myself and it’s a slow process. I’m basically only using the Greek interlinear and Strong’s and occasionally lexicon. I’m sure I’ll have some trials and errors along the way which is why I started this thread to correct my mistakes. It’ll take some time but I’ll eventually get there. Thanks for your help. God bless
 
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All4Christ

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But the word son or sons G5207 does not appear before Zebedee. Here’s another example in Luke 3:38.
Luke 3:38

38 the [son] of Cainan, the [son] of Enos, the [son] of Seth, the [son] of Adam, the [son] of God.

38 τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS Ἐνώς (Enosh) G1800 N τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS Σήθ (Seth) G4589 N τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS Ἀδάμ (Adam) G76 N τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS θεοῦ (God) G2316 N-GMS

Please forgive me I’m still learning Greek and how it was used. I know ho G3588 does not necessarily mean son but the, that, which, and many others. I do however see ho used even when referring exclusively to God The Father and I’m starting to notice that when referring to the Son of God in all the cases I’ve seen the word Son huiós G5207 is used. So I’m starting to see a pattern here that I didn’t notice this morning. If I can determine that in all cases referencing the Son of God use huiós G5207 then I can determine that the passages that do not have the word huiós are in reference to God regardless of ho. So that’s my goal now but it’s getting late so I’ll have to check that out tomorrow. Thanks for your help friend it is very much appreciated. God bless.
It’s good that you are still working on learning Greek. Another suggestion: The omission of son isn’t unique to the word son. It is fairly common in any relational phrase. Look at the case of the word to determine if it is possible for it to have an omitted word in front (genitive vs dative for example - in the case of God, Theos vs Theou)

In the case of omission of Son, it could be translated similar to

Adam, of God [first human created with no biological parent - which interestingly is evidence of Jesus being God, since Jesus created all and this is saying that Adam was created by God]
Jesus, of Joseph
James, of Joseph

In the case of the genealogy, that relationship is easy to see - so it is a common place to omit huios.
 
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mark kennedy

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I’m kind of embarrassed to say this but I’m actually having trouble finding actual conclusive Greek text that without a doubt proves that Jesus is God. I am a Trinitarian but recently in a debate with Jehovah’s Witnesses when I began searching for conclusive evidence that Jesus is God in the Greek text I can’t seem to find anything. I’ve done a little searching and haven’t found anything that cannot be refuted. Typically I would quote John 1 but after some research I’ve come to realize that the word “a” is not used in Greek. The problem is the Bible version Jehovah’s Witness use says in John 1 the Word was with God and the Word was a god.(lower case g) When I compared this to other verses in the English translation that have the word a then I look at the Greek text the word a is not there. For example John 1:6 starts with “there came a man sent from God” the Greek text says “came man sent from God”. So I can’t really use John 1 as a conclusive argument. The best I’ve come up with so far is there is only One God. So I’m wondering if anyone can help me find conclusive evidence that Jesus is God. Thanks & God bless.
When you talk to a Jehovah's Witness first of all, use a King James Bible, they will accept it. The only reason they translate, actually paraphrase the passage in John 1 is that it lacks a definite article, with that context it doesn't need that and they don't know that most of the time. I struggled with the incarnation for years, but what finally settled the matter for me was Jesus testimony before the High Priest. Before getting into something like that I would lead them to Hebrews 1, the early verses and simply ask them, how could all those things be true of anyone other then God?

It's been my experience if they think you know the Bible the conversation will end quickly so I wouldn't recommend dumping a truck load of references, most of them never study this stuff. A more important issue with JWs is the resurrection of everyone, soul sleep is perhaps their most dangerous threat to the gospel message. It looks like the thread was well underway before I got here and from what I've seen you got some pretty choice advice. But if you ever want to get more details of certain passages there is nothing I like better then a good exposition.

Just one more thing, whenever you witness to someone always bring up the gospel, that Jesus died for our sins. How they react to that one will tell you plenty about their theology.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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All4Christ

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Yes I’m starting to see that often when referring to people ho G3588 is often used saying “the Zebedee” not exactly saying “son of Zebedee”. I’m still learning Greek and have a long way to go. Unfortunately I can’t take classes so I’m having to teach myself. I still have more study to do on the term Son of God. So far all the cases I’ve see actually use the word huiós G5207. I think if all cases referring to Son of God use huiós then I can dismiss ho as referring to Son of God since in many cases ho is also used in verses that are only pertaining to The Father Himself. Thanks for your help friend it is very much appreciated. Have a blessed day:)
One more suggestion- if you see

τοῦ Θεοῦ - that means “of God”. That’s one of the cases where a word can be omitted. If it doesn’t end in that, there most likely is not an omission of words. That’s important when looking for any case where huios isn’t used. (I don’t know off the top of my head if it is ever omitted with “Son of God” when referring to Jesus - generally speaking, I think huios is included for those cases, but I’m not sure. If you consider the noun tense I posted above, that may help for unclear passages.)
 
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BNR32FAN

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It’s good that you are still working on learning Greek. Another suggestion: The omission of son isn’t unique to the word son. It is fairly common in any relational phrase. Look at the case of the word to determine if it is possible for it to have an omitted word in front (genitive vs dative for example - in the case of God, Theos vs Theou)

In the case of omission of Son, it could be translated similar to

Adam, of God [first human created with no biological parent - which interestingly is evidence of Jesus being God, since Jesus created all and this is saying that Adam was created by God]
Jesus, of Joseph
James, of Joseph

In the case of the genealogy, that relationship is easy to see - so it is a common place to omit huios.

I can’t thank you enough friend your information has been really useful. :)
 
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