Demons - real or not?

mcarans said:

An article on whether demons are superstition or real. What do you think? Are they real?

Demons - real or not? : cruciformity

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Jesus thought that they were real!

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Not far off -
notice what He Says: "when you DID IT....." (obedience to Yahweh, to TORAH, for this is what YAHWEH says in TORAH TO DO) A choice to obey Yahweh, to serve Yahweh instead of serving selfishly (doing the exact same things - helping the poor)
instead of serving demons (as the whole world does, refusing to repent).

The love Yahweh commands is the choice of your will to obey Him always, without ever seeking not to obey Him. DO His Word, joyously and obediently ALL THE TIME, forever.

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It doesn't say that they obeyed His Word though, only that they saw Him in need and provided for Him. Plus, it doesn't show that they necessarily believed or worshipped God - only that they did love.

It is important to not dismiss Matthew 7:21-23 too. Beliefs are only as good as the fruits they produce. There are many who "believe in" and "worship" God - though doing it wrongly, who would have been better off to have never taken His name in the first place.

Serving Zion said:

It doesn't say that they obeyed His Word though, only that they saw Him in need and provided for Him.

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See Romans 2.

Those who DO what is right, without having TORAH, are JUSTIFIED.
Those who DO NOT what is right, even having TORAH, are UN-JUSTIFIED.

Those who DO what is right SHOW thereby that YAHWEH WROTE TORAH ON THEIR HEARTS.

Francis Drake said:

Of all the people I have cast demons out of, 99% have been baptised in the Spirit for a long time.

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I am speaking very precisely while you are throwing around a lot of Christianese.

If indeed they were actually possessed, then the Holy Spirit was not dwelling within them.

No demon can dwell within a person if the Holy Spirit is dwelling within that person. But a demon can imitate an outward appearance of "baptized in the Holy Spirit," and fool the gullible.

Cis.jd said:

This is where I disagree. You see, I don't believe in a God who just sends people to hell because they don't believe or worship in him. Why because that is childish.

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Explain why that is childish.

Why would you create people in the first place and then tell them they have free will yet they have to give you a form of attention or they will suffer the worst unimaginable experience for all eternity?

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Scripture denies free will. Being constrained to a single choice--to obey or not to obey--with consequences imposed for making the wrong choice is not "free will."

That is God to you? I don't believe God to be irrational. I believe him to be intelligent, understanding, mature, and actually has humanity towards others. You can't say the same by what you say here.
I think Hell is for those like Hitler, Dahmer, Pol Pot, Isis Members, and whoever serial killer/murder/tyrant.. But for people who are geographically born in another place; people who grew up differently? No.

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You've said two different things there. "But for people who are geographically born in another place; people who grew up differently" is not the same thing as "they don't believe or worship in him."

In our age, we have a better understanding of things thanks to science and we know there are mental conditions that people have whether it be addictions, depression, or whatever imbalances. Some of them don't have a choice as you probably think.. and because of that I don't think God is evil that he isn't going to show any understanding or compassion towards that by just sending them to hell.

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That's a different thing from making the choice of disobedience.

Also, there is a difference between sinners. You think Hitler and some teen who smoked weed are the same form of sinners? We are all sinners, even the most kindest person you know is a sinner, but just because we are sinners doesn't mean we are evil.

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There are people who would choose to be obedient and those who would choose not to be obedient. One of the things I have learned over the years and being in different places--such as places where I could do evil with absolute assurance of no earthly consequences--is that there is no sin that is not tempting to a man if it is easy enough and cheap enough, with no consequences.

That person who disbelieves God and sins only a little because of earthly consequences would become like Hitler if given eternity and allowed to be disobedient without heavenly consequences.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

See Romans 2.

Those who DO what is right, without having TORAH, are JUSTIFIED.
Those who DO NOT what is right, even having TORAH, are UN-JUSTIFIED.

Those who DO what is right SHOW thereby that YAHWEH WROTE TORAH ON THEIR HEARTS.

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I agree. Still, the final judgement is not about them believing or worshipping God.

Serving Zion said:

I agree. Still, the final judgement is not about them believing or worshipping God.

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What do you mean? What then is the final judgment you are referring to and what is it for, and how does it compare to this thread ?

RDKirk said:

Explain why that is childish.

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It's insecure.

Scripture denies free will. Being constrained to a single choice--to obey or not to obey--with consequences imposed for making the wrong choice is not "free will."

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So we don't have freewill? All these atrocities humans have done for ages such as the Dark Ages, the Salem Witch Trials, The Holocaust.. or just basic things such as what you and I are doing now. This is all not out of choices?

You've said two different things there. "But for people who are geographically born in another place; people who grew up differently" is not the same thing as "they don't believe or worship in him."

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I can't believe you didn't understand that. If you were born in NK, how high is the chance that you know anything about Christianity or even what is in the Bible? How about the middle east, china, India, or any location in where there is a dominant population of different religions. Most likely you inherit the beliefs taught to you.

There are people who would choose to be obedient and those who would choose not to be obedient. One of the things I have learned over the years and being in different places--such as places where I could do evil with absolute assurance of no earthly consequences--is that there is no sin that is not tempting to a man if it is easy enough and cheap enough, with no consequences.

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What does this have to do with the after life?

That person who disbelieves God and sins only a little because of earthly consequences would become like Hitler if given eternity and allowed to be disobedient without heavenly consequences.

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You missed the point of what i am saying there.

mcarans said:

An article on whether demons are superstition or real. What do you think? Are they real?

Demons - real or not? : cruciformity

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Absolutely, 100% yes.
But what they actually are....I don't know. They could be evil spirits of the Nephilim. They could be negative thoughts. They could be bad genes. They could be like bacteria or a virus....I have no idea.
But by experience, I know they are as real as anything and must be dealt with.

Blessings

JacksBratt said:

Again, nobody is "sent" to hell. All are sinners, born in sin and cannot exist in the presence of God.

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So where are they sent then? There are only 2 destinations after you die, nothing in between, right? So where do these sinners go? They can't go to heaven if they still have sin, because sin can't enter there. There sins are not evil enough to go hell. So what happens?

Nothing is going to "send you to hell in a hand basket". The entire world population is in that hand basket from the get go..

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Pre-Jesus, yes. But now, no. Jesus' sacrifice freed us from this destination. Before Jesus, even the good could not enter heaven but now anybody can nevertheless the sins can't just be swept under the rug. That is logic and reasoning of Catholics, Orthodox, a few older Protestants, and even the Jews. We can argue all day on the scripture stuff, but it is just a rational thought.

Accept Christ, admit you are a sinner and doomed to face eternal separation from God or deny Him and stay in your comfy little hand basket.

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The Salem Witch composed of very religious and devout Christians who accepted Christ. They went to church every sunday, they were baptized, all of that... but they were uneducated and could not understand the verses they were reading and due to that they brutally murdered innocent people under the belief that they were witches/demons.

Do you think that these uneducated villagers went to heaven instantly after they died because of their acceptance of Christ? or did they go straight to hell nevermind their actions was just due to them being stupid the entire time?

No, I believe you are wrong... There are millions of very kind and generous people... who will find themselves in hell. That is due to one thing and one thing only... they deny Christ. They are trying or thinking that heaven is for the nice, kind and generous.

There will also be those that we humans find irritating, selfish, arrogant, repugnant and socially delinquent... who will be given a pardon by Christ due to one thing and one thing only... They accepted the gift of salvation and did everything in their human power to be more like Christ. For they knew that they were sinners and came to the foot of the cross to admit it.

We see the outward actions of people. We cannot see their heart and what obstacles and hurdles that they face in their mind and their life and have to overcome just to face each day.

This is, of course, extreme examples.. opposites on the spectrum. But, I'm sure you know someone who is the nicest and kindest and most respectable and selfless person you know. However..... they are atheist or just deny Christ and His work..

Well, they are not going to heaven. Sorry.. but that is the plain and honest truth.

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See above it's the same response. The God you portray is just like Allah. If you believe God is the source of morality how are you ever going to sound rational to a non-believer with the God you've illustrated? The Gospel means "the good news" yet here you are telling them there is this God that exists and you have to worship him otherwise he will send you to a place in where you will experience unimaginable suffering till you die? Then you make a case about God and morals, how does that make sense to someone who doesn't know Jesus?

Again, God sends nobody to hell. And, yes, God will be the one to judge whether they had the mental capacity to comprehend their sin and can be held accountable. He is merciful and the personification of love itself.. Nobody will be held to something that was outside of their human abilities.

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So no one goes to hell? I thought earlier the non-believers don't enter heaven, so i guess they don't enter hell. Where do they go?

Here on earth, man has laws. Here on earth men will be held to these laws and their respective punishments.

God, on the other hand, has one line... you are either accepting of Christ... or you deny Him. Easy peasy.

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Matthew 7:22-23
Mark 10:17-31

yeshuaslavejeff said:

What do you mean?

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I mean that beliefs have no value in and of themselves, but the beliefs we have are contributing factors in our decisions, that cause us to think, act and speak - and it is the thinking, acting and speaking that we are judged for, not the beliefs.

Therefore I have said "beliefs are only as good as the fruit they produce" - meaning that having a belief, though being a valid belief, might not necessarily produce the fruits vital for salvation. We can see that when we look at some of the Christians who have valid beliefs and they do a form of worship, but who do not show forth Christian fruits. Somewhere, their belief system has failed to produce the fruits of the spirit - and yet, there are those who do not understand Christianity well enough that they can confess belief in it all - and they don't worship, yet they are showing the fruits of the spirit.

Because, ultimately, it is love that produces the fruits of the spirit, not beliefs!

yeshuaslavejeff said:

What then is the final judgment you are referring to and what is it for,

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"When the son of man returns, the holy angels with Him, then He will gather all the nations before Him, and will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep: the goats on His left and the sheep on His right". He will say to those on His right "come with me, inherit the kingdom that has been prepared for you since the foundation of the world" and to those on His left, He will say "depart from me, ye cursed, into the everlasting fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels." -- "The righteous will go into everlasting life, the wicked into everlasting destruction". (Matthew 25:31-46).

yeshuaslavejeff said:

and how does it compare to this thread ?

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I agree with the sentence that @Cis.jd said in post #129, that you quoted in post #130. God is not necessarily just to send a person to hell for having not believed in Him or worshipped Him.

JacksBratt said:

Everybody faces trials and tests in their lives. I was bullied. I was heart broke by a lying female. I was the object of ridicule because of my character and beliefs growing up. I know of people who were raised by abusive parents and those that were raised by perfectly socially acceptable and sane parents....

All of them made choices in their lives based on how they handled these things that affected their life. Even myself.. I made choices and I live by the consequences of those choices. I don't blame others for what I have become. Or reward them for what I am today either.
We cannot blame all the things that others have done to us for the way we turned out.

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But that is you. This is not the same for everybody and there are crimes people have committed towards others that the effects it had on their lives are different. It's just not right that it is swept under the rug otherwise God can't be called just.

Again and listen carefully.... God does not "send" anyone to hell.
Anyone who is born on this earth.. is born in sin and is a sinner... everyone.. except Christ.
As a result of this... we cannot enter heaven... We are not "sent" to hell, we are refused entrance to heaven.
However, all it takes is acceptance of Christ's work on the cross... He will then vouch for you at your judgement and you will be pardoned for all of your sins... not just the little ones... nobody will be refused salvation because the were a murderer... if they accepted Christ before their death.

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So how do you think this judgement goes? Jesus will report the stuff you did, and then God will "it's ok, go ahead" and whatever pain or big faults you have done to somebody is just swept under the rug?

The only ones who will be pardoned without conscious acceptance of Christ, are those that are mentally incapable of understanding and comprehending their guilt and what is necessary for repentance and redemption.

There is no "limbo". It is a myth.

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How about those who didn't accept christ because of false portrayals that his christians gave about him, like "Worship this God or you will go to hell"?

Serving Zion said:

God is not necessarily just to send a person to hell for having not believed in Him or worshipped Him.

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Do you think Yahweh can ever do anything unjust, unrighteous, sinful, or not perfectly ?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Do you think Yahweh can ever do anything unjust, unrighteous, sinful, or not perfectly ?

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Go ahead.

He cannot. He would not be Sovereign Perfect Creator if He did.
Jesus would not be Savior and Messiah if He did.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

He cannot. He would not be Sovereign Perfect Creator is He did.
Jesus would not be Savior and Messiah if He did.

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It's really just stating the obvious though.. was there a point you wanted to make upon those facts?

Serving Zion said:

It's really just stating the obvious though.. was there a point you wanted to make upon those facts?

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Simply like requested - IF you think God can do anything unjust, you don't know Him, nor about Him.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Simply like requested - IF you think God can do anything unjust, you don't know Him, nor about Him.

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.. hmmm, ok then. I wouldn't want you to think that way about me!

RDKirk said:

I am speaking very precisely while you are throwing around a lot of Christianese.

If indeed they were actually possessed, then the Holy Spirit was not dwelling within them.

No demon can dwell within a person if the Holy Spirit is dwelling within that person. But a demon can imitate an outward appearance of "baptized in the Holy Spirit," and fool the gullible.

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No, it is you who are thoughtlessly regurgitating traditional Christianese. (And BTW I never mentioned the word "possessed" when it comes to demons.)

We are commanded by Jesus to cast demons out as a matter of course.-
Mark16v15And He said to them, “Having gone into all the world, proclaim the gospel to all the creation. 16The one having believed and having been baptized will be saved, but the one having disbelieved will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those having believed: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

The unregenerate have no interest in having demons cast out, either because they don't believe in such things, or they love the power and aggression the demons give them.

Thus I have never ever cast a demon out of an unbeliever, but always believers, and virtually all spirit filled because those not filled with the spirit tend to be disinterested in real spirituality.

To me as far as Christians are concerned you have a right to ask is a demon having an effect on me? You don't have a right to ask are there demons? The Bible says there are.

You have a right to ask various questions about other things too. As in why was Jesus raised from the dead? When was Jesus raised from the dead?

You don't have a right to ask was Jesus raised from the dead? As a Christian and I'm speaking about being a Christian now you don't have a right to ask that last question. If you're a Christians that's what you believe just like other things in the Bible.