Fallacies of Preterism

yeb

Dr. D Bunker said:

A good post but I want to show you my viewpoint.

That's where I disagree. 2 Thes. 2 has nothing to do with the body of believers. There's some horrendous things said in there and they apply to MUSLIMS.

Unbelievers can fall away because that's not what the word APOSTASY implies. Falling away is a bad translation of the word apostasia. Apostasy and the son of perdition have nothing to do with Christians or the church. First, APOSTASY!

Apostasy is not being lukewarm or backslidden, it has nothing to do with the spiritual condition of a church or the lack of devotion of an individual. It is not false doctrine or heresy.
This word apostasy is unique since this is the only place it's translated 'falling away,' and a poor translation of the word. It comes from a word meaning a 'divorce' or to defect, and to abandon something. It's also a rebellion.

The only other place the word is used is in Acts 21:21 where it's translated forsake.

Notice how the other religions define apostasy and how those definitions are similar. It's only the Christian definition that's different, and incorrect!

This is the web definition of apostasy.

Apostasy - (noun) 1. The act of abandoning a party or cause.
2. The state of having rejected your religious beliefs, political party, cause or sports team in favor of opposing beliefs, causes or teams.
3. A defection, renunciation, disaffiliation, abandonment or revolt from a previous association.
4. (Islamic definition) Rejection in word or deed of one's former religion.
5. (Christian definition) To fall away from the truth.

To prove both the son of perdition and Apostasy have nothing to do with Christians, you have to look at verse 13.

From verse 3b down to verse 12 the church is not implied at all. BUT WE in V.13 indicates Paul was distinguishing between Christians and the man of sin and his followers which are MUSLIMS.

The word BUT is a conjunction that shows opposition and distinction from a previous statement. When Paul said, "but we" he was inferring CHRISTIANS as opposed to the followers of the man of sin.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The temple...
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The word 'God' is the SAME word used for a false god or goddess. THEOS.

The word used for 'temple' is the same word that’s used for a heathen temple or shrine. NAOS.

I noticed from the interlinear that the KJV translators also dropped the word ‘the’ in “temple of (the) God.” The word God/god is used four times in verse 4. The interlinear shows GOD capitalized twice and twice it is not. Another major KJV blunder. The Greek interlinear uses the word God in verse 4 twice and god twice.

When the word god is NOT capitalized, it shows it like this...n_ Acc Sg m. (noun, accusative case, singular, masculine) That means when god isn't capitalized,

Verse 4 is better interpreted like this…
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called god, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the heathen temple (Dome of the Rock) OF THE god (Allah), shewing himself that he is God.

Click to expand...

Col_4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.


2Ti_4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

.

@Dr. D Bunker before I address your previous post I need to first point out the irrelevance the Muslims had, who did not even exist within the importance of Paul's letter to the Thessalonians. So the concerns to the Church in Thessalonica is not Islam that would come on the scene 600 years later in Mecca.

The term son is just that, that is he is a son just like Judas Isacriot and the point being that he is a son destined to destruction just like Judas was.

Since God gives the son(s) of destruction a strong delusion to believe a lie, those very sons who could not continue in truth, is antecedent dependent on previous versus that implies that they originally knew and had received the truth but ended up departing (fell away) from it and in this respect forsaking the Blood Covenant of God.

So the Temple of God when it becomes desecrated by the sons of perdition becomes a lesser temple that you pointed out in the absence of capitalisation. Their spiritual temple becomes the temple of doom because they remove the proper spiritual Daily Sacrifice and to institute an Abomination that results in destruction.

These sons of perdition abandoned, that is forsakened the Blood Covenant of God by loving not the truth, meaning they did not continue in the truth and in this respect they are now counted as unrighteous by God, whereas before the implied antecedent has them as once sons who were considered righteous by the blood of the lamb.

So the means by which they nullify their justification by the blood of the Lamb of God is because they did not continue in true Apostolic worship and reverted to abominations which no longer places them as subjects justified by the blood of Christ.

Internal abominable practices makes them recipients of the following versus -

Hebrews 6:4-8
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

The land being the congregation whose ecclesiastical leaders (christs/anointed) become delusional by procureing a false form of worship that counts them as falling away, meaning departing from the truth and from true Apostolic worship.

I can historically pin this contorted form of worship to creating a Temple goddess and calling her the mother of God and brainwashing future generations to venerate and to deify this figure as a redeemer and a an intercessor to God through prayers and fasting by her many subjects.

This would fit with the following -

Daniel 11:30
therefore he (christ/anointed leader) shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

The them that foresake the Holy Covenant are not Muslims but are those sons of perdition who originally had the knowledge of the truth, that is Christ's blood justifies and Christ only worship and praying to, to then depart from the truth and to serve a lie, owing to the Mariology Gospel of Mother of God intercessor and redeemer.

Follow it in context with -

31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. (Mother of God) 32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong,

Jesus was speaking of those once Justified by Christ who departed from the truth and God allowed them to continue in serving a lie so that they will be condemned to destruction by God.

How sad! Because God wants them destroyed.

ToServe said:

@Dr. D Bunker before I address your previous post I need to first point out the irrelevance the Muslims had, who did not even exist within the importance of Paul's letter to the Thessalonians. So the concerns to the Church in Thessalonica is not Islam that would come on the scene 600 years later in Mecca.

The term son is just that, that is he is a son just like Judas Isacriot and the point being that he is a son destined to destruction just like Judas was.

Since God gives the son(s) of destruction a strong delusion to believe a lie, those very sons who could not continue in truth, is antecedent dependent on previous versus that implies that they originally knew and had received the truth but ended up departing (fell away) from it and in this respect forsaking the Blood Covenant of God.

So the Temple of God when it becomes desecrated by the sons of perdition becomes a lesser temple that you pointed out in the absence of capitalisation. Their spiritual temple becomes the temple of doom because they remove the proper spiritual Daily Sacrifice and to institute an Abomination that results in destruction.

These sons of perdition abandoned, that is forsakened the Blood Covenant of God by loving not the truth, meaning they did not continue in the truth and in this respect they are now counted as unrighteous by God, whereas before the implied antecedent has them as once sons who were considered righteous by the blood of the lamb.

So the means by which they nullify their justification by the blood of the Lamb of God is because they did not continue in true Apostolic worship and reverted to abominations which no longer places them as subjects justified by the blood of Christ.

Internal abominable practices makes them recipients of the following versus -

Hebrews 6:4-8
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

The land being the congregation whose ecclesiastical leaders (christs/anointed) become delusional by procureing a false form of worship that counts them as falling away, meaning departing from the truth and from true Apostolic worship.

I can historically pin this contorted form of worship to creating a Temple goddess and calling her the mother of God and brainwashing future generations to venerate and to deify this figure as a redeemer and a an intercessor to God through prayers and fasting of her many subjects.

This would fit with the following -

Daniel 11:30
therefore he (christ/anointed leader) shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

The them that foresake the Holy Covenant are not Muslims but are those sons of perdition who originally had the knowledge of the truth, that is Christ's blood justifies and Christ only worship and praying to, to then depart from the truth and to serve a lie, owing to the Mariology Gospel of Mother of God intercessor and redeemer.

Follow it in context with -

31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. (Mother of God) 32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong,

Jesus was speaking of those once Justified by Christ who departed from the truth and God allowed them to continue in serving a lie so that they will be condemned to destruction by God.

How sad! Because God wants them destroyed.

Click to expand...

Bingo!

In 431AD the church in the West, that was half the size of the Assyrian Church of the East was ostracized and falsely labeled Nestorian. Those of the church in the west conspired against the Assyrian Church of the East (Men of Nineveh) so that the many sons of perdition led by the false christs (religious leaders) and false prophets (ministers) foresaked the Holy Covenant by flatteries in the council of Ephesus 431AD and in centuries that followed.

Then several hundred years afterwards, after they had concocted a title The Mother of The God in 431AD, they came up with the suicidal temple desecration Mariology gospel that polluted the sanctuary of strength (The Temple of God), and took away the daily sacrifice.

Daniel 11:30-32 has the Handy Work of God, The Assyrian Church of the East (Men of Nineveh) not being cast out of Christ's Holy City Jerusalem, as the people that do know their God who shall be strong in faith. (DANIEL 11:32)

Jesus words "The Men of Nineveh will come to condemn this New Testament Generation" have come true today, within the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:8 where Christ through his Handy Work Holy City will consume with the breath of his mouth those sons of perdition who continue to serve a lie and to continue in their Mariology gospel that has desecrated the Temple of God to a temple goddess that is enshrined and elevated as the justifier before God.

ToServe said:

31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. (Mother of God) 32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong,

Click to expand...

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.



.

BABerean2 said:

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

.

Click to expand...

Pray your flight not be in winter or a sabbath.............

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
"winter" occurs 16 times in 15 verses in the NKJV.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matthew 24:20

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.

20 and pray ye that your flight may not be in winter,<5494> nor on a sabbath;
Mark 13:18
and pray ye that your flight may not be in winter.
John 10:22-22
And the dedication<1456> in Jerusalem came, and it was winter<5494>
and Jesus was walking in the Temple, in the porch of Solomon,

Amo 3:15
I will destroy the winter house along with the summer house;
The houses of ivory shall perish,
And the great houses shall have an end,”
Says the LORD.

Luk 13:
34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!
35 “See! Your house is left to you desolate........

Rev 18:
10 “standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying,
‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty City! For in one hour your judgment has come.’
12 “merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood,
every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble;

...................

John 10:22 (YLT)

The Unbelief of the Jews

22And the dedication in Jerusalem came, and it was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the porch of Solomon, 24the Jews, therefore, came round about him, and said to him, ‘Till when our soul dost thou hold in suspense? if thou art the Christ, tell us freely.’ 25Jesus answered them, ‘I told you, and ye do not believe; the works that I do in the name of my Father, these testify concerning me; 26but ye do not believe, for ye are not of my sheep, 27according as I said to you: My sheep my voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow me, 28and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish — to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand; 29my Father, who hath given to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of the hand of my Father; 30I and the Father are one.’

31Therefore, again, did the Jews take up stones that they may stone him; 32Jesus answered them, ‘Many good works did I shew you from my Father; because of which work of them do ye stone me?’ 33The Jews answered him, saying, ‘For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.’
34Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods? 35if them he did call gods unto whom the word of God came, (and the Writing is not able to be broken,) 36of him whom the Father did sanctify, and send to the world, do ye say — Thou speakest evil, because I said, Son of God I am? 37if I do not the works of my Father, do not believe me; 38and if I do, even if me ye may not believe, the works believe, that ye may know and may believe that in me [is] the Father, and I in Him.’
39Therefore were they seeking again to seize him, and he went forth out of their hand,

.

bye

Dr. D Bunker said:

I'll have to go over Daniel 11 with you later. It's a very detailed passage, one that I'm sure you won't agree with me.

Click to expand...

Please start a separate thread on that or pick one out of the plethora of ones already on CF that suits your fancy [do a search on CF or Google]..........Thanks

https://www.google.com/search?q=dan...na0KHdBnBZMQrQIoBDAAegQIABAM&biw=1366&bih=626
"daniel 11 christianforums"

Where is the abomination of desolation of Daniel, Matt and Mark shown in Revelation



.

ToServe said:

Man of Sin is indicative in the plural sense of the term, as in many people of sin. The rendering of the term Anthropos in the Greek is a gender neuter and implies people in general usage of the term and not a man in the singular sense.

The Man of Sin is further identified as the Son of Perdition. The only other usage of the term Son of Perdition mentioned in scripture is to identify Judas Iscariot. Judas was originally a son, yet had a falling out from the Messiah. When we read Paul's entire letter to the Thessalonians in context to a son who once had received the knowledge of the truth but later had pleasure in unrighteousness in order for the righteous Judge to condemn, then the falling away must solely be inclusive of once believers and of the body of Christ.

The term Son of Perdition is never meant to be applied to unbelievers, because unbelievers do not have access to the Holy Spirit Temple construct of God.

Since now we can easily discern that Paul was speaking of a spiritual Temple having solely believers who received the knowledge of the truth, then to revert to serving a lie and as a result desecrating the Holy Spirit Temple of God within the context of Apostasy (Falling Away).

Unbelievers cannot fall away because they are already in a fallen state and they do not have access to the Temple of God in order for them to be able to desecrate it by standing within it by their abominations, where abominations are the false form of worship.

Notice that the true Daily Sacrifice owing to the Living Stones (1 Peter 2:5, Romans 12:1 ) is removed and replaced by abominations, which most certainly points to a predominantly false form of worship in the latter days and by the major Christian institutions. Jesus rellayed this message by saying that many faise christs (institutional religious heads) and false prophets (false institutional ministers) will rise to deceive the masses and to reign in condemnation upon those who served their lie.

Zechariah 14:1-3 depicts a spiritual battle ensuing towards the latter times where Christ allows the Tares to infiltrate his Holy City Jerusalem within its very walls (congregations), then he goes out to fight with those faise christs and false prophets on the Great Day of Battle of God Almighty to purge his Holy City Jerusalem by the breath of his mouth and by the brilliance of his coming as Paul phrases it in 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Jesus purges his Holy City of those Tares (sons of perdition), who serve a lie (false worship)

Then in Zechariah 14:1-3 Jesus expells the many Tares (sons of perdition) to go off into spiritual captivity of the mind by serving a lie (Strong Delusion) (2 Thessalonians 2:11) and therefore be expelled from his Holy City forever. As for the faithful Living Stones, Jesus does not remove them from his Holy City and they get to stay (Zechariah 14:2).

Notice that the Holy City Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:1-3 is in perfect harmony as a second witness to 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, whereby half who represent the Tares (sons of perdition) are exiled from his City and the remaining half are not exiled.

If we so scrutinize the Full Preterist 70AD narrative, we can finally destroy the Preterist 70AD narrative claim of a physical brick and mortar city being the actual Jerusalem of God.

We therefore, beyond a reasonable doubt with the full exegetical testimony of scripture, identify the Abomination of Desolation as taking place in a post Pentecost Holy Spirit Temple of God, by the many sons and daughters of perdition, who had originally practised at one time in the New Testament Age the true form of worship (The Daily Sacrifice), then later replaced it with Abominations at the time the Gentile nations of Zechariah 14:1-3 coming to full numbers within the Holy City Jerusalem.

The false christs (religious heads) and the false prophets (religious ministers) are those inducted within the religious institutions to propagate the Falling Away from the original Apostolic faith over time, just like like a slow cooker that warms the food ever so slightly, so in similar like the people within their congregations know no better to get out while they can, because it has been done over generations unbeknownst to future generations and this is the workings of many false christs and the many false prophets that Jesus warned his future Church about. This is where Jesus points us to prophet Daniel to highlight to us that it is the Antichrist false christs and false prophets within his very Church serving as Tares over the entire New Testament generation who should be avoided at all cost, even at the expense of leaving your belongings and home behind.

Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 is speaking of a purge within Christ's very numbers of his Body of believers in the latter times and when the Gentiles come to be fully numbered, that is accounted for.

The Full Preterist 70AD narrative dies here within this post

Click to expand...

There shall in the end one final Antichrist, who will receive worship as being the true Messiah, a false Christ!

eby

Dr. D Bunker said:

What does it matter, it all debunks Preterism.

Click to expand...

Yes, as the Church as always see the full blown version of it as heresy!

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Please start a separate thread on that or pick one out of the plethora of ones already on CF that suits your fancy [do a search on CF or Google]..........Thanks

https://www.google.com/search?q=dan...na0KHdBnBZMQrQIoBDAAegQIABAM&biw=1366&bih=626
"daniel 11 christianforums"

Where is the abomination of desolation of Daniel, Matt and Mark shown in Revelation

Click to expand...

Dr. D Bunker said:

What does it matter, it all debunks Preterism.

Click to expand...

If that is so, start a thread on it..........don't be scared...........we will try to be gentle with you........



.

LittleLambofJesus said:

If that is so, start a thread on it..........don't be scared...........we will try to be gentle with you........



.

Click to expand...

All those holding to it need to show from history when Jesus came back, and when the saints in Him physically resurrected!

YeshuaFan said:

All those holding to it need to show from history when Jesus came back, and when the saints in Him physically resurrected!

Click to expand...

Right now, I am working on 70ad Jerusalem and Rome being in Revelation.
Then I will get to that ........

And I just found another important link thanks to another member.

Revelation in order?

Dr. D Bunker said: ↑
I guess other than just 'saying so' you'll never answer the question, Where is Rome found in ONE verse of end-time prophecy!"

Click to expand...

Glad you brought that up...........
What about this verse?
[In fact, this is the first time I ever noticed John 11:48 was the 1 and only place in the Gospels "romans" is used........This is mind blowing!]

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
"romans" occurs 6 times in 6 verses in the NKJV.

Little did they know that 40yrs later, it would become reality........

John 11:48
If-ever we should be letting Him thus, all shall be believing into Him and shall be coming<ἐλεύσονται 2064> the Romans
and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place/topon <5117> and the Nation.

48 ἐὰν ἀφῶμεν αὐτὸν οὕτως, πάντες πιστεύσουσιν εἰς αὐτόν, καὶ ἐλεύσονται οἱ Ῥωμαῖοι καὶ ἀροῦσιν ἡμῶν καὶ τὸν τόπον καὶ τὸ ἔθνος.

I decided to look up where the exact form of #2064 was used and behold!
The famous 70ad Jerusalem/Temple Discourse.

Luk 21:6 -
“These things which you see—the days shall be coming/<ἐλεύσονται 2064 in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

That makes Revelation 6:6 look more and more like 70ad Jerusalem and Rome.......

This denotes the famine that came upon 70ad Jerusalem during the siege:

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denari and three choinex of barleys a denari,
and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"."

Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
and they shall be desiring/yearning to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers,

........
.

YeshuaFan said:

All those holding to it need to show from history when Jesus came back, and when the saints in Him physically resurrected!

Click to expand...

Based on the scripture found below, Christ was a partial-preterist in the Olivet Discourse.
The Second Coming lies in the future.

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)





Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　





Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　(See also Luke 19:41-44)

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　) (See Luke 23:27-31 where Jesus warned the women weeping for Him.)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::



From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

BABerean2 said:

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

.

Click to expand...

The video clip implements a historical cut and paste job, with little to no regard to eschatology, exegetical and post Pentecoste Temple of God.

The speaker's focus seems to be on carnal kingdoms that have no access to the Temple of God. Jesus would refer to the true worship within the New Testament Temple of God. Jesus did not refer to Daniel for the purpose of earthly historical references to the history of carnal kings of this world. Jesus was concerned in context to Matthew 24 to the false christs (religious leaders) and the false prophets (religious ministers) who would take reign within the Temple of God, which is the congregation of the Body of Christ, so that he is able to remove the Daily Sacrifice (True Worship) and to replace it with the Abomination that brings desolation/destruction.

The Holy Covenant refers to the Blood Covenant, for it cannot be the Old Covenant or a covenant of carnal men as suggested by the speaker of the video clip. This guy has a completely different primary and secondary discourses than Jesus Christ and should be rejected from a biblical eschatological, exegetical and post Pentecoste Temple of God point of view.

Dr. D Bunker said:

The word perdition means...

destroying, utter destruction.

That's nothing Christian but has Islam written all over it.

Click to expand...

You are ignoring that God is sending them the strong delusion to continue serving a lie, therefore they continue to apostatise as deserters of the faith, meaning to fall out from the protection of the Blood Covenant that would otherwise have justified them, as a result, they abandon their posts in the falling out from the Lord.

God would not be bothered to send a strong delusion to those (none believers) who are condemned by virtue of the absence of the Blood of the Lamb protection. The strong delusion is meant for the once believers who had the protection of the blood, but then rebelled and forsaken the Covenant in their falling out from it.

Dr. D Bunker said:

Apostasy has NOTHING to do with continuing in truth. Christianity is the only religion that has the wrong definition of apostasy. That's because Christians like to demonize their own brothers and sisters.

Click to expand...

Christianity is the context of the New Testament Blood Covenant. We cannot read the Biblical perspective with glasses coloured in Quranic text.

Dr. D Bunker said:

Apostasy A word of increasing interest found twice in the NT. (Acts 21:21; 2Thes. 2:3 It comes from the Greek apostasia a late form of apostasis, originally to desert a post or station in life. It is used of Plutarch of political revolt and is found in the OT in the sense of revolt against the Lord. (Josh. 22:22) Antiochus Epiphanes enforced an apostasia from Judaism to Hellenis

Click to expand...

To desert a post or a station in life is important to why Paul to the Thessalonians is addressing it, because it involves those who had originally received the knowledge of the Truth, but then reverted to abandoning their station in life Christ Jesus by serving a lie, whereby God allowed them to continue in, so that they who had no pleasure in truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness could be condemned and denied life in Christ Jesus.

Paul is not referring to a political revolt of unbelievers within an outside religion that is already considered a religion of the enemy, but that it is clothed deceptively in Christ's cloth, reporting to be the Post Pentecoste Temple of God, but is not what it seems. The deception is working within, for which the spiritual defences are relaxed and not firm. If it was Islam then the defences are on high alert, but if it was within the very flock that Paul hinted that wolves would come to deceive the sheep, then the letter serves its purpose to alert the congregation of the wolves amongst their own ranks who say they are Christ (anointed leaders) but are in fact Antichrist wolves (Acts 20:29).

The Book of Acts is a sequential event log diary of the Acts of the Apostles and sure enough, after the warnings of Acts 20:29 below, which is the underlying context of the term Apostasy used in the verse that immediately follows in Acts 21:21.

"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears." (Acts 20:29-31)

The Acts of the Apostles is concerned with the immediate events of the Apostles and not some future fairy tale of Muslims that are not even around at this time. The concerns here within the usage of the same term that you highlighted 'Apostasy' is towards those within Christ's very Body of Believers who abandon their posts and desert Christ by falling away from the true worship in Christ Jesus.

21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. (Acts 21:21)

The 'THEY' are the Judaisers who received the knowledge of the truth, within the New Testament Holy Spirit Temple of God, to then revert to practising Judaism 101 Moses style and teaching others to also divert from Grace by following them. This turning away happens because the 'THEY' are Christian Jews who received Christ then reverted to the improper form of Worship that was circumcision Old Covenant 101 style and this is why the letters of concern are addressing the body of Christ of those Apostates who had abandoned their posts by falling out and serving a lie, that is the false form of worship.

The letters in Acts and 2 Thessalonians 2 have nothing to do with Islam (Muslims) and this is where you are mistaken and unwilling to correct your position so that you, like the 70AD Preterists can overcome your stumbling block.

Dr. D Bunker said:

In the AV it is translated "falling away" in relation to the man of sin or antichrist. In this sense the thought is of religious revolt. Cremer states that apostasia is used in the absolute sense of "passing over to unbelief," thus a dissolution of the "union of God subsisting through Christ." Amdt adds rebellion or abandonment in the religious sense. On the nature of apostasy there are lengthy articles in both the JewEnc and the CE developing an extensive doctrine of apostasy. In the NT. 2 Thes 2:3 is part of a prophetic passage of apocalyptic character. The falling away invites conjecture about whom and from what. The event seems future and thus related to antichrist. The implication is that the apostates will welcome the man of sin. (1)

Click to expand...

It no longer is a conjecture about whom and from what the nature of the apostasy is.

The apostasy as testified by the book of Acts and Paul's letters to the Thessalonians is to warn the Church about once believers within their very ranks, who he identifies as wolves in sheep's clothing, who have deceptively replaced the true form of worship with a lie and they need to be identified so that the flock is not swept up in their lies and John identifies them as Antichrists. Paul calls them out as sons of perdition because they did not continue in truth, but reverted to ways that lead to death.

Dr. D Bunker said:

Now look at what Vine's say's... "a defection, revolt, apostasy," is used in the NT of religious apostasy; in Act 21:21, it is translated "to forsake," lit., "thou teachest apostasy from Moses." In 2Th 2:3 "the falling away" signifies apostasy from the faith. In papyri documents it is used politically of rebels.

Click to expand...

It is a revolt against Christ, which is why God gives them over to Strong Delusion to continue in their lie so that they will be condemned and denied life. The entire context in Acts 21:21 and 2 Th 2:3 is to warn the flock of those sons of perdition within Christ's body of believers who are now become wolves in sheep's clothing and working their deception on the flock and unaware to the flock, and therefore necessitating the warning coming from these letters to the flock owing to the tears of Paul for three years mentioned in Acts 20:21.

Dr. D Bunker said:

"The secret power of lawlessness; the lawless one; whom the Lord Jesus will destroy; counterfeit signs, miracles, and wonders; every sort of evil that deceives those who "are perishing"; who refuse to love the truth and so be saved; and delight in wickedness; and God sends them powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie! "

Click to expand...

It is secret power of lawlessness because it worked undetected and deceptively within the very Body of Christ and this is how these false spiritual counterfeit signs, miracles and wonders are being used by the enemy within, in order to deceive the flock. Muslims without the Christian body cannot work secretly and without detection in dispensing these false spiritual signs and wonders, in order to deceive the flock, for the only way in context to Paul's days this could have to happen is if the wolves are within the Body of Believers, operating secretly without being detected and hence the letters are there, for the sole purpose of warning the flock of these hideous apostates who are operating secretly with different agendas that contend with and to undermine the Apostles teachings.

John even writes in 1 John 2:19-22 in exposing these apostates -

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

The term Antichrist is closely related to the terms Man (Anthropos) of Sin and Son of Perdition. These are all indicating that these individuals were amongst their very own numbers reporting to be for Christ, yet had a totally different agenda that was diametrically opposed to the Apostolic teachings and ways.

Dr. D Bunker said:

Does the passage sound like the Church? Why would God send His own Christians powerful delusion? This passage is talking about Muslims not Christians.

Click to expand...

Absolutely it sounds like Antichrists within the Body of believers operating as the many wolves in sheep's clothing.

God would send them a powerful delusion to believe a lie so that they would be condemned, because otherwise if they had continued in truth they would be saved. The unbelievers are already condemned and God does not need to send them a powerful delusion because they are goners anyhow.

Muslims have no context in the Acts of the Apostles and certainly the exegetical challenge you have is in contorting scripture to bridge a 600 years advent of Islam into the mix, when the urgency of the letters was to the Church which was already dealing with the secret power of lawlessness (sons of perdition) in their time and as a result they were in their many letters identifying them as sons of perdition, man (peoples) of sin and antichrists who operated within their very own numbers (1 John 2:19-22)

Dr. D Bunker said:

The temple in 2 Thes. 2 isn't a spiritual temple. It's a physical heathen shrine!

Click to expand...

If it is a heathen shrine then the urgency of the letters, that is not only Paul's letters but the entire Apostles letters were concerned of a secret power of lawlessness operating deceptively within the Heathen Temple. This does not make any sense and since you now know very well that the deception was working within the Church and not without and this is why it was so effective in working secretly without detection until the letters of the Apostles had exposed them and had kicked them out of their congregations, as they had identified them as the many sons of perdition, man (Anthropos/peoples) of sin, Judas Iscariots.

I now look at your comment below and I can only say that the Apostles were the first to be guilty of your accusation, right?

Your Quote below:
"Christianity is the only religion that has the wrong definition of apostasy. That's because Christians like to demonize their own brothers and sisters."

Dr. D Bunker said:

You use the words in Hebrews 6, "who have fallen away,"

That's NOT the word apostasia! That's the word, "parapiptō" The apostasy of 2 Thes. 2 is an EVENT! Not just a condition.

Click to expand...

Your protracted projection to a 600 year, in the future Islamic caliphate is preposterous indeed! Is it is not apparent to you and others by now?

I question your agenda (political/religious/?)?

bye

ToServe said:

The video clip implements a historical cut and paste job, with little to no regard to eschatology, exegetical and post Pentecoste Temple of God.

The speaker's focus seems to be on carnal kingdoms that have no access to the Temple of God. Jesus would refer to the true worship within the New Testament Temple of God. Jesus did not refer to Daniel for the purpose of earthly historical references to the history of carnal kings of this world. Jesus was concerned in context to Matthew 24 to the false christs (religious leaders) and the false prophets (religious ministers) who would take reign within the Temple of God, which is the congregation of the Body of Christ, so that he is able to remove the Daily Sacrifice (True Worship) and to replace it with the Abomination that brings desolation/destruction.

The Holy Covenant refers to the Blood Covenant, for it cannot be the Old Covenant or a covenant of carnal men as suggested by the speaker of the video clip. This guy has a completely different primary and secondary discourses than Jesus Christ and should be rejected from a biblical eschatological, exegetical and post Pentecoste Temple of God point of view.

Click to expand...

Mat 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

.