The righteousness of God in His decre that evil take place.

Presbyterian Continuist

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They first have to be aware there is a choice. Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. That is the responsibility of His followers, of those few of the will of God within Christianity
I have absolutely no issue with that. Paul said it in Romans:
"But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?" (Romans 10:14).

There was a Puritan divine named John Flavel, who preached a series of sermons about the voice of God being in the preaching of the gospel. It was very instructive. He said that when the voice of the Holy Spirit is combined with the preaching, the call of God is irresistible.

He says that a preacher can preach the gospel 99 times with nothing happening in the way of conversions. Then on the 100th time, the Holy Spirit speaks through the sermon and scores get saved at once.

This shows me that just sharing the gospel and quoting the Bible on its own does not give saving faith. The voice of the Holy Spirit needs to be in it for that to happen, and therefore, when we go to share the gospel with sinners, we need to pray earnestly that God will speak through what we say to them. We may mouth the words, but God does the real speaking.

When God does the speaking through us (and it is not automatic), then the sinner understands the gospel in a new way, and then can make an intelligent choice based on the knowledge that has come to him through the combination of you sharing the gospel and the Holy Spirit speaking through you.

I wonder if you have had that experience. You may have spoken to many people about the gospel with no response, then suddenly, one day, the person says, "I understand!" and agrees to come to church with you to hear more and perhaps receive Christ. This is the difference between sharing the gospel in our own strength, and then sharing it with the Holy Spirit involved.
 
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His student

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The voice of the Holy Spirit needs to be in it for that to happen, and therefore, when we go to share the gospel with sinners, we need to pray earnestly that God will speak through what we say to them. We may mouth the words, but God does the real speaking.
Unlike many Reformed believers - I have never felt any real need to be dogmatic about exactly what "regeneration" means or exactly how it is meted out or accomplished.

Some think of it as an instantaneous act of God and some think of it more as a process. So called Calvinists see it as the former and so called Arminians as the later.

The important thing is to realize that God must open the eyes of the blind in a special act of some kind or they will not respond to the gospel - indeed they cannot do so.

While many Calvinists are overly dogmatic as to exactly how and when this happens - most Arminians deny that this is a special act of grace which is not applied to all men - which is the true biblical doctrine. The reason being is the doctrine of election which stems from the proper understanding of God's grace.
 
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timothyu

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I have absolutely no issue with that. Paul said it in Romans:
"But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?" (Romans 10:14).

True but misused. But Jesus said the focus was not on Him but on the Gospel of the Kingdom. He was just here to bring it to fruition. Certainly He is our King but knowing that is totally useless unless we know King of what and what it stands for in comparison to the empires and will of man.

Knowing Jesus is not enough. even the adversary knows Jesus. Knowing the Kingdom is what Jesus wanted for us and the Adversary does not, simply because there is no power or place for him or his human minion s in it. Put on a make the Kingdom Great Again hat and watch the ridicule at conventions of either side in man's world. lol
 
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Oldmantook

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God cannot deny Himself. He is "bound" by His Word.
His Word states that he desires to save all men. His Word states that he desires that none should perish. His Word states that his will is to reconcile all things to himself. As you stated he is bound by his word. Yet you lack an explanation of why all of these aforementioned things that he is bound by, fail to happen since he is sovereign. Still waiting for your answer.
 
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Oldmantook

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No one is saying God fails to accomplish His will except Oldmantook.
Apparently you fail to notice what his Word states regarding his will. You ought to read it once in a while to remind yourself. God's stated desire is to save all men (1 Tim 2:3-4), not wishing that any should perish (2 Pet. 3:9) and to reconcile all things to himself (Col 1:20). Does God accomplish all of these things? What say you?
 
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Oldmantook

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Does He fail or is He simply setting the example of not doing what man would do, seek gain at the expense of others. Giving us choice allows us to not be under the foot of God for His gain. What God would like for us He will not force upon us. He is not a child playing with dolls.
If God is sovereign, which he is, how can he fail to accomplish his stated will? Since God is sovereign it is not difficult at all for him to enforce his will upon us. If God allows us to choose, then his will that all should be saved is nullified by our choices. I don't believe God's sovereign will can be nullified and thwarted by our will.
 
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timothyu

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f God is sovereign, which he is, how can he fail to accomplish his stated will? Since God is sovereign it is not difficult at all for him to enforce his will upon us. If God allows us to choose, then his will that all should be saved is nullified by our choices. I don't believe God's sovereign will can be nullified and thwarted by our will.

He didn't say His will was all will be saved, but should be. He has done everything to convince man to chose His will over the will of man. But stupid is as stupid does when it comes to mankind.
By what we have been taught and by what we see as our reality it is difficult for man to clear his mind of that which the world has taught us in order to see a Kingdom and will alien to our own. The choice has to be ours or we are no different than the trees that grow according to the will of God.
 
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Oldmantook

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He didn't say His will was all will be saved, but should be. He has done everything to convince man to chose His will over the will of man. But stupid is as stupid does when it comes to mankind.
By what we have been taught and by what we see as our reality it is difficult for man to clear his mind of that which the world has taught us in order to see a Kingdom and will alien to our own. The choice has to be ours or we are no different than the trees that grow according to the will of God.
This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:3-4
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself. Jn 12:32
As you can see, He did indeed say all will be saved - not should be saved.
 
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Roidecoeur78

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Apparently you fail to notice what his Word states regarding his will.
Apparently, cafeteria Christianity will save those that focus only on the verses they prefer. Here are some more verses, for those that think they're reading God's word but are only cherry-picking what they want to hear to deceive themselves:
"everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man"Matt7:26 and complete will be his destruction.
"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption"2Pet2:12
"And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." 2Peter3:7
" It is a fearful thing to fall into the Hands of the Living God." Heb 10:31
"for our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29"


This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:3-4
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself. Jn 12:32
As you can see, He did indeed say all will be saved - not should be saved.

Universalism is a pleasant and hopeful concept, but is not scripturally sound based off of a couple verses which are easily seen to be contingent upon 100 other verses not coming to pass according to God's will; neither is Univeralism allowed to be preached on Christian forums. That all will be drawn, at some point in their lives, does not negate the many that fall away into delusion and error Heb6:4, the many that will show up saying "lord, lord" and be told to go away into the flamesMatt7:22, the men that are without excuse Rom 1:20, those rejected like EsauHeb12:17, the 3 out of four soils that are unfit for growing the Word Matt13:4; and the evidence goes on and on for anyone that reads the Holy bible once in a while, just to remind themselves.

Again, for those that can hear, God did not desire for Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but He allowed it because their disobedience was in the realm of possibility. If it were not possible to go wrong, He would not have warned against it. You might 'desire' a purple eight-legged unicorn for your birthday, that doesn't mean you're going to get it. The difference between what is desired and what must be manifested is according to His will, not Oldmantook's will. Where most people have a hard time is understanding the mystery of how anyone can disobey a sovereign God, as in, why does He warn us of what will happen when we do the things He already knows we will do, since He has willed all that has ever, is ever, and will ever occur; it is not information accessible to, or comprehended by, a finite consciousness Rom9:19-21. That could be why acknowledged and confessed sins are fore given up to the second birth; they were destined beforehand, for humans to experience and suffer the consequences of, so that some might be turned away from them, with grace, and salvaged from the grips of sin. That doesn't equate to everyone receiving and retaining the offer, since not even all of those that do receive and retain it for a while end up enduring the trials and temptations.

It's kind of like how so many people misuse and misconstrue the verse, "with God all things are possible" to their own vain desires and intentions. It doesn't actually mean that any absurdly imaginable thing is possible (like real, in the flesh purple unicorns), but that all things that are possible, and that are done, are so only in, by, and through Him. Though His absolute will might desire for all to be saved, His permissive will allows for most choosing their own destruction.

His Word states that he desires to save all men. His Word states that he desires that none should perish. His Word states that his will is to reconcile all things to himself. As you stated he is bound by his word. Yet you lack an explanation of why all of these aforementioned things that he is bound by, fail to happen since he is sovereign.
If you knew the living Word is Jesus the Christ, written and living in the hearts of the truly saved, then you would not be using the written word as an idol, which is merely an image of dead ink on dead paper that will not save anyone (John 5:39). This really seems like someone is clinging to a couple verses out of sheer terror, in the hopes they will be saved on that day by saying "see, look here, I have these two verses that say you gotta let me in!". Be sure to show those verses to everyone outside the city "the dogs--the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie." Rev15:22
 
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His student

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His Word states that he desires to save all men. His Word states that he desires that none should perish. His Word states that his will is to reconcile all things to himself. As you stated he is bound by his word. Yet you lack an explanation of why all of these aforementioned things that he is bound by, fail to happen since he is sovereign. Still waiting for your answer.
I have answered twice now. You simply won't listen. This is getting silly.

Here is the third time printed out again from the second time from post number 59.

"To the contrary. I have explained it thoroughly.

God can "will" that all men be saved and yet not all will be saved. It is just as a judge or a general can "will" that their loved one who is a murderer or a spy not be put to death.

At the same time he is bound by a higher law than his compassion for the one before him. He makes a choice according to the higher bar of justice and his oath of office.

The judge can cry his eyes out for eternity or lament his verdict even as he hands it down. That will not make his verdict unjust nor must it indicate some contradiction in his personality.

If you don't know the difference between the "wills" of God you need to hit the books.

By the way - the dichotomies between God's love and His judgement, His wrath and His grace, predestination and free will, the presence of both good and evil in a world where God is omnipotent - and a host of others --- do not simply disappear by railing against Reformed theologian's attempt to explain it.

The difference between the folks who scoff at the Reformed view concerning these things and those Reformed theologians is simply that Reformed believers tackle the dichotomies head on and some people put their hands over their eyes and ears and pretend that it's all been solved by them not acknowledging the dichotomies still exist.

By the way also - Have you not heard that God has or will reconcile all things to Himself in Christ. (2 Cor. 5:18 & 20; Col. 1:20)

God is not only fully able to accomplish what He has stated will happen - He is bound by His Word to accomplish them."

I won't suffer your stubbornness much longer. Your particular line of reasoning is wrong and several have pointed it out to you.

One more time ---- go and study again about the wills of God in any good systematic theology book. Then return and perhaps take another avenue of argument if you feel you must.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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His Word states that he desires to save all men. His Word states that he desires that none should perish. His Word states that his will is to reconcile all things to himself. As you stated he is bound by his word. Yet you lack an explanation of why all of these aforementioned things that he is bound by, fail to happen since he is sovereign. Still waiting for your answer.
free will.
CHOOSE TODAY who you will serve.
 
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LightLoveHope

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It was God’s good pleasure to “crush” the innocent man Jesus – and that for good reason. But it came to pass through the altogether sinful actions of evil men. The scriptures couldn’t be more clear that it was God who decreed that Jesus die at the hands of those evil men.

It is easy to turn Gods ways into a kind of game, where God could make everyone enter the Kingdom and He just chooses those He wants at random.

The question really is what is Gods intent in the Kingdom?
We are to be like Him, reigning on His throne, as His friend, where our opinion and choices are part of Gods will.

Jesus had to show forgiveness and love to sinful man, to give them a way back to heaven.
It was the evil of men He had to bare, not because the Father forced Him to, but as the expression of love which is who they are. And by bearing this evil, this sentence of torture and death, and forgiving it, we too could be forgiven. It was this love and sacrifice that is the healing of our souls, and brings us into the Kingdom.

Gods intent to condemn children to eternal torment, before they reach the age of consent is puzzling to me. If life in itself is a blessing given to man, which will be destroyed in the lake of fire, then children and all those who do not know the King, have been blessed to rise no more.

This changes the argument about how could God intend evil men to stay doomed to hell. I have heard some argue that to be eternal with God we must also be eternal in torment to be just. My argument would also go further, that man without God is a disfunctional husk without the heart, so putting sinful man in heaven would just create chaos.

If a sinner is lost without hope, how can a sinner be guilty? Because the nature of sin is separation from God, which can only be bridged through Christ transforming us through faith.
Is it better to give all a chance, than to destroy all for the sake of the elect?

God appears also to be saying, judging the church would harm the elect as they grow, so this grey world must continue so the right lessons are learnt in freedom and with free will working with the Holy Spirit.
 
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timothyu

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this grey world must continue so the right lessons are learnt in freedom and with free will working with the Holy Spirit.

We must learn to reject ourselves, the flesh of a fleshy universe which dominates a dual nature in order to inherit a completely different realm. What works here does not fit there. Yet what works there can be lived here also.
 
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bling

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There's nothing to be grateful to them for or get up set with them about. They're sinners just like me. They did nothing that I wouldn't likely have done in the same setting.

I am grateful to God for not leaving me (and hopefully Adam and Eve) in our fallen and alienated condition related to His holiness.

Speaking from the natural - I would rather that God found another way to display good vs. evil than this way which includes negative experiences for me. But God had apparently decided the best way to display it in the long run was the way He did it in the garden, is doing it throughout history, and will do it until He makes all things new.

I do like the fact that I have become more like God than the original parents were in their very beginnings - in that I know good from evil.

I've always kinda wondered if God would have eventually taught them the knowledge of good and evil in a different way if they had asked Him what it was all about instead of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I'm not following exactly what point you are trying to make. :scratch:
You said: “- I would rather that God found another way to display good vs. evil…”

It is not for “display purposes”, Adam and Eve and all mature adults cannot fulfill their earthly objective without sinning. (Sin has purpose for the nonbeliever).

Look at the set up: God provides just one way for Adam and Eve to do right or wrong (really not good and evil). What will be present to A&E and the rest of us is the fact we cannot fulfill our earthly objective without first sinning. If the tree of good and evil had knowledge of how to spit 10 ft. it would not be a temptation to Eve, but knowledge was. Eve desired (lusted after) knowledge, so it is not like the serpent talked her into something she did not want to do.

Knowledge is not bad in and of itself, the knowledge of good and evil just provides us with a ton more ways to sin, so even with the same “nature” as Adam and Eve, we will sin.

This messed up world is also the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective.
 
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His student

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You said: “- I would rather that God found another way to display good vs. evii.” It is not for “display purposes”, Adam and Eve and all mature adults cannot fulfill their earthly objective without sinning. (Sin has purpose for the nonbeliever).
Everything God has done in creation - both in the Heavenlies and in our universe - is to display His glory. If you don't realize that by now you need to go back to square one in your theology.

The Word of God (in whom all things consist) has always had and always will have as His prime objective the displaying of the attributes of His Father in order to (as God says it) "magnify" God's glory.

In this case it is God's innate knowledge of good and evil that is being displayed.

I wish there had been another way to accomplish the task other than this present age with all it's pain and suffering due to sin.

But apparently - God finds this to be a necessary price to pay, as it were, in order to get on with agendas in a future world.
 
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timothyu

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I wish there had been another way to accomplish the task other than this present age with all it's pain and suffering due to sin.

Imagine the Middle ages when even the Church hunted you down. Is there ever a time that isn't bad , simply because of the will of man?
 
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Oldmantook

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free will.
CHOOSE TODAY who you will serve.
Is not man's free will ultimately subject to God's will - which is sovereign? God allows free will but ultimately all without exception, are subject to his will.
 
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reigning on His throne
HE ALONE REIGNS SOVEREIGN. No one else, not even HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON SITS ON HIS THRONE WITH HIM.

In a Kingdom, there may be many priests in the kingdom, as the Ekklesia are called,
but not many kings, as often mis-thought.
 
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