Demons - real or not?

Cement

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I belive they are real. Some call them UFO's also, but common opinion seems to state that they are really demonic entities.

They not only go around spooking people in UFOs. Sometimes they abduct people during sleep in the form of our "grey brothers from space" in what we call alien abduction phenomena. A truly horrifying experience to those who have encountered these deceiving lying spirits.
 
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Cement

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They are, but there is also a thing caused by psychological effects and just pure ignorance.. God can't be considered merciful if that is just disregarded nor can he be just if he ignores it. Matt 5:26

Yeah im sure God factors in things when judging people but im not sure how spending an millennia in purgatory is suppose to cleanse away a persons sin.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Yeah im sure God factors in things when judging people but im not sure how spending an millennia in purgatory is suppose to cleanse away a persons sin.
Hebrews 10:1-18 English Standard Version (ESV)
Christ's Sacrifice Once for All
10 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Consequently, when Christa came into the world, he said,

“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will

we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But

when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”


17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
 
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JacksBratt

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That is something i can raise an argument too and shell out the bible verses, but Purgatory isn't the debate and going "oh bible says this". It's a rational view. There are sins that are not "evil enough" to deserve hell and there are sins that just can't be "swept under the rug" thinking other wise draws an illogical belief of a "just and loving God".
This doesn't disregard or belittle Jesus' sacrifice, but it's just being real that regardless of what he did we just can't sin/hurt others and have it swept under the rug. That is unfair to the others who have suffered from your sins.
I will have to disagree with you here. There are no "great sins" or "lesser sins". No sins that are "less evil" or not "evil enough" for Hell..

Hell is for those that have "come short of the glory of God" and "all have sinned".

That simply means that all of us are damaged, tainted, stained or whatever and cannot exist in the presence of God.

For this reason, we needed the Cross. Everyone. From the little old lady that only told white lies and maybe disobeyed her dad or mom... right up to the mass murderer.

We are all sinners and cannot enter heaven.
We are all headed for eternal separation from God.

However, Christ's blood will wash away the sins of the little old lady and the mass murderer too.

There is no sin that will "send you to hell in a hand-basket" as we are all in that hand-basket already..

There is only Christ's work on the cross that lifts us up out of the hand basket and washes us clean while "blotting out" our sins.

Thus, there is no "purgatory" or place for those who are not awful sinners or just basic sinners or less evil sinners... there are just sinners.
 
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JacksBratt

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They are, but there is also a thing caused by psychological effects and just pure ignorance.. God can't be considered merciful if that is just disregarded nor can he be just if he ignores it. Matt 5:26
I understand what you are saying here. I think. People who never have the mental capacity to understand or comprehend that what they are doing is wrong. Those who do not have the maturity or capacity to be held accountable for their actions.

The catholic church, from what I understand ( feel free to correct me ) teaches that an infant or child or mentally ill person, if not "sprinkled" or "baptized" will go into "limbo".

However, King David made it clear that, when his son died as an infant... he celebrated because the child's suffering was over..and.. even though the child could not come to him... someday he would go to the child...

People who never reach a mental capacity to understand sin and are for all intents and purposes ignorant of any wrong doing and cannot comprehend sin, repentance, atonement and the general need for redemption... are not going to be condemned by our gracious and mercyful Lord and Savior. They will be in paradise.
 
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Cis.jd

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The catholic church, from what I understand ( feel free to correct me ) teaches that an infant or child or mentally ill person, if not "sprinkled" or "baptized" will go into "limbo".
i never heard limbo was only for those who are not baptized.

People who never reach a mental capacity to understand sin and are for all intents and purposes ignorant of any wrong doing and cannot comprehend sin, repentance, atonement and the general need for redemption... are not going to be condemned by our gracious and mercyful Lord and Savior. They will be in paradise.

But what about if these people have caused harm towards others? For example, a bully, who was also abused during his childhood, caused emotional and physical pain towards others at his school - some of the people he hurt where psychologically effected through out their lives. How can God logically be called a Just God if he sweeps what he did under the rug and not justify the suffering of his victims; how can God be logically a loving God if he sends this kid to hell if this kid was also psychologically damaged from his own upbringing? Hopefully you understand the rationalism in this view.
 
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Cis.jd

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I will have to disagree with you here. There are no "great sins" or "lesser sins". No sins that are "less evil" or not "evil enough" for Hell..

Hell is for those that have "come short of the glory of God" and "all have sinned".

That simply means that all of us are damaged, tainted, stained or whatever and cannot exist in the presence of God.

For this reason, we needed the Cross. Everyone. From the little old lady that only told white lies and maybe disobeyed her dad or mom... right up to the mass murderer.

We are all sinners and cannot enter heaven.
We are all headed for eternal separation from God.

However, Christ's blood will wash away the sins of the little old lady and the mass murderer too.

There is no sin that will "send you to hell in a hand-basket" as we are all in that hand-basket already..

There is only Christ's work on the cross that lifts us up out of the hand basket and washes us clean while "blotting out" our sins.

Thus, there is no "purgatory" or place for those who are not awful sinners or just basic sinners or less evil sinners... there are just sinners.

This is where I disagree. You see, I don't believe in a God who just sends people to hell because they don't believe or worship in him. Why because that is childish. Why would you create people in the first place and then tell them they have free will yet they have to give you a form of attention or they will suffer the worst unimaginable experience for all eternity?

That is God to you? I don't believe God to be irrational. I believe him to be intelligent, understanding, mature, and actually has humanity towards others. You can't say the same by what you say here.
I think Hell is for those like Hitler, Dahmer, Pol Pot, Isis Members, and whoever serial killer/murder/tyrant.. But for people who are geographically born in another place; people who grew up differently? No.

In our age, we have a better understanding of things thanks to science and we know there are mental conditions that people have whether it be addictions, depression, or whatever imbalances. Some of them don't have a choice as you probably think.. and because of that I don't think God is evil that he isn't going to show any understanding or compassion towards that by just sending them to hell.

Also, there is a difference between sinners. You think Hitler and some teen who smoked weed are the same form of sinners? We are all sinners, even the most kindest person you know is a sinner, but just because we are sinners doesn't mean we are evil.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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just because we are sinners doesn't mean we are evil.
All mankind is evil, wicked, destined for the lake of fire, according to GOD WHO WROTE ALL SCRIPTURE.

He Created ONE WAY to escape. Only One. As is written.
 
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Cis.jd

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Believe God who inspired/breathed Scripture that says so.

An Evil God that you preach about is not the God of the Bible.


All mankind is evil, wicked, destined for the lake of fire, according to GOD WHO WROTE ALL SCRIPTURE.

He Created ONE WAY to escape. Only One. As is written.
Reason is important to the faith. You need that whenever you talk about scripture. You need to stop your fundamentalism and apply rationality to what you interpret otherwise, why would anyone want to worship the God you perceive? You illustrate an unholy God who is only God because of power but has no positive attributes to take any moral examples of. Anybody reasonable would see that in what you post.

Not all mankind deserves hell, because God isn't immature or some tyrant.
 
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Cis.jd

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Why do you seem to mix up RIGHTEOUSNESS with EVIL? (I know, but cannot post more)

There is nothing righteous in sending people to eternal torment all because "they don't worship me". God is not like that and that isn't what the Bible teaches; believing in God and being a christian isn't based on subscribing.
 
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Serving Zion

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Believe God who inspired/breathed Scripture that says so.
Actually, the parable of Matthew 25 says it is "when you did it to even the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did it to me" - love, not belief, is the criteria. Matthew 7:21-13 makes that even clearer: "many will come to me on that day, saying "look all the wonderful things I did in your name!" and I will say "depart from me, I never knew you. You are a worker of iniquity".

"The natural man does not discern the things of the spirit, for they are foolishness to him, but the spiritual man discerns all things and himself, is judged by no man."
 
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JacksBratt

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i never heard limbo was only for those who are not baptized.



But what about if these people have caused harm towards others? For example, a bully, who was also abused during his childhood, caused emotional and physical pain towards others at his school - some of the people he hurt where psychologically effected through out their lives. How can God logically be called a Just God if he sweeps what he did under the rug and not justify the suffering of his victims; how can God be logically a loving God if he sends this kid to hell if this kid was also psychologically damaged from his own upbringing? Hopefully you understand the rationalism in this view.
Everybody faces trials and tests in their lives. I was bullied. I was heart broke by a lying female. I was the object of ridicule because of my character and beliefs growing up. I know of people who were raised by abusive parents and those that were raised by perfectly socially acceptable and sane parents....

All of them made choices in their lives based on how they handled these things that affected their life. Even myself.. I made choices and I live by the consequences of those choices. I don't blame others for what I have become. Or reward them for what I am today either.
We cannot blame all the things that others have done to us for the way we turned out.

In the end... God is just. He is also gracious and merciful. It will be Him and Him alone who decides who was mentally competent to be held to the requirements for accepting salvation or being unable to comprehend it.

Only He knows the heart of every human and understands what they have endured in their days on this earth.

Again and listen carefully.... God does not "send" anyone to hell.

Anyone who is born on this earth.. is born in sin and is a sinner... everyone.. except Christ.

As a result of this... we cannot enter heaven... We are not "sent" to hell, we are refused entrance to heaven.

However, all it takes is acceptance of Christ's work on the cross... He will then vouch for you at your judgement and you will be pardoned for all of your sins... not just the little ones... nobody will be refused salvation because the were a murderer... if they accepted Christ before their death.

There is nothing on this earth or in heaven that anyone can do to "earn" passage into heaven... No human is capable of paying the price for our unrighteousness, for it is death.

The only ones who will be pardoned without conscious acceptance of Christ, are those that are mentally incapable of understanding and comprehending their guilt and what is necessary for repentance and redemption.

There is no "limbo". It is a myth.
 
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JacksBratt

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This is where I disagree. You see, I don't believe in a God who just sends people to hell because they don't believe or worship in him. Why because that is childish. Why would you create people in the first place and then tell them they have free will yet they have to give you a form of attention or they will suffer the worst unimaginable experience for all eternity?

Again, nobody is "sent" to hell. All are sinners, born in sin and cannot exist in the presence of God.

Nothing is going to "send you to hell in a hand basket". The entire world population is in that hand basket from the get go..

There is only two options... being removed from said hand basket.. or. stay on the road to hell. Accept Christ, admit you are a sinner and doomed to face eternal separation from God or deny Him and stay in your comfy little hand basket.

That is God to you? I don't believe God to be irrational. I believe him to be intelligent, understanding, mature, and actually has humanity towards others. You can't say the same by what you say here.

I believe that God is totally rational.. totally merciful, totally forgiving and totally just.

Nobody, at the end of all time, will ever say that God gave them a raw deal or was not fair to them...

All will be humbled when God lays bare their actions and they will have no argument when He judges them and finds them guilty....

However, those that have accepted Christ.. although found guilty and falling short... will be washed clean and seen as white as snow. They will spend eternity in the presence of their creator.

It's not complicated...

I think Hell is for those like Hitler, Dahmer, Pol Pot, Isis Members, and whoever serial killer/murder/tyrant.. But for people who are geographically born in another place; people who grew up differently? No.

No, I believe you are wrong... There are millions of very kind and generous people... who will find themselves in hell. That is due to one thing and one thing only... they deny Christ. They are trying or thinking that heaven is for the nice, kind and generous.

There will also be those that we humans find irritating, selfish, arrogant, repugnant and socially delinquent... who will be given a pardon by Christ due to one thing and one thing only... They accepted the gift of salvation and did everything in their human power to be more like Christ.
For they knew that they were sinners and came to the foot of the cross to admit it.

We see the outward actions of people. We cannot see their heart and what obstacles and hurdles that they face in their mind and their life and have to overcome just to face each day.

This is, of course, extreme examples.. opposites on the spectrum. But, I'm sure you know someone who is the nicest and kindest and most respectable and selfless person you know. However..... they are atheist or just deny Christ and His work..

Well, they are not going to heaven. Sorry.. but that is the plain and honest truth.

In our age, we have a better understanding of things thanks to science and we know there are mental conditions that people have whether it be addictions, depression, or whatever imbalances. Some of them don't have a choice as you probably think.. and because of that I don't think God is evil that he isn't going to show any understanding or compassion towards that by just sending them to hell.

Again, God sends nobody to hell. And, yes, God will be the one to judge whether they had the mental capacity to comprehend their sin and can be held accountable. He is merciful and the personification of love itself.. Nobody will be held to something that was outside of their human abilities.

Also, there is a difference between sinners. You think Hitler and some teen who smoked weed are the same form of sinners? We are all sinners, even the most kindest person you know is a sinner, but just because we are sinners doesn't mean we are evil.

Here on earth, man has laws. Here on earth men will be held to these laws and their respective punishments.

God, on the other hand, has one line... you are either accepting of Christ... or you deny Him. Easy peasy.

I think that there is evidence, in scripture, for levels of punishment in Hell. I also, personally would like to think this is true.

However, there are only two kinds of people in a coffin.... those with salvation, heading for eternal life with their creator... and those who denied, refused and did not believe..they will be heading to eternal death..

Both are sinners.. no matter what level of evil or wrongs that they committed.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Actually, the parable of Matthew 25 says it is "when you did it to even the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did it to me" - love, not belief, is the criteria.
Not far off -
notice what He Says: "when you DID IT....." (obedience to Yahweh, to TORAH, for this is what YAHWEH says in TORAH TO DO) A choice to obey Yahweh, to serve Yahweh instead of serving selfishly (doing the exact same things - helping the poor)
instead of serving demons (as the whole world does, refusing to repent).

The love Yahweh commands is the choice of your will to obey Him always, without ever seeking not to obey Him. DO His Word, joyously and obediently ALL THE TIME, forever.
 
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