Revelation in order?

bye

bye

eby

Dr. D Bunker said:

So if a person doesn't have a prayer bump, they must carry a Koran to buy or sell.

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That is a different mark than the one you are claiming for the forehead.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

What is your claim to be the image of the beast that is going to be made?

ewq1938 said:

I just showed you how it does not fit. 5 months of torment and no killing doesn't match Ad70. It was a 4 year siege not 5 months, and people were killed. That alone proves Rev has nothing to do with AD70 and Rev speaks the most about the GT period and what happens then.

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I thought the 1st Jewish war lasted 4 yrs, up to the final destruction of Jerusalem before the the next set of Roman conquests?

First Jewish Revolt, (ad 66–70), Jewish rebellion against Roman rule in Judaea. The First Jewish Revolt was the result of a long series of clashes in which small groups of Jews offered sporadic resistance to the Romans, who in turn responded with severe countermeasures.

I am having a difficult time finding a source other than Josephus concerning day, month and year Titus and the Roman army actually started the siege of Jerusalem itself.

I can tie in the Olivet Disourse to Revelation without that info, but wonder if others can find out when exactly that was.

The third of men could be a third of the Jews either in all of Israel or just around Judea/Jerusalem:

Rev 9:15
So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of the men

Wars and rumors of war were going on in Israel all the way up to the period leading up the the 70ad destruction.

Matthew 24:
6 “And you will hear of battles and rumors of battles. See that you are not troubled;
for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Mark 13:
7 “But when you hear of battles and rumors of battles, do not be troubled;
for such things must happen, but the end is not yet.

14.......“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:
9 “But when you hear of battles and commotions/tumults, do not be terrified;
for these things must come to pass first, but the end is not immediate.”

21 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,



.

Douggg said:

That is a different mark than the one you are claiming for the forehead.

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Could the sign be related somehow to what is found below?

Exo 13:8 And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt.
Exo 13:9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.
Exo 13:10 Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance in his season from year to year.
Exo 13:11 And it shall be when the LORD shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, as he sware unto thee and to thy fathers, and shall give it thee,
Exo 13:12 That thou shalt set apart unto the LORD all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males shall be the LORD'S.
Exo 13:13 And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.
Exo 13:14 And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:
Exo 13:15 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.
Exo 13:16 And it shall be for a token upon thine hand, and for frontlets between thine eyes: for by strength of hand the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt.

.

BABerean2 said:

Could the sign be related somehow to what is found below?

Exo 13:8 And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt.
Exo 13:9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.
Exo 13:10 Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance in his season from year to year.
Exo 13:11 And it shall be when the LORD shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, as he sware unto thee and to thy fathers, and shall give it thee,
Exo 13:12 That thou shalt set apart unto the LORD all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males shall be the LORD'S.
Exo 13:13 And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.
Exo 13:14 And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:
Exo 13:15 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.
Exo 13:16 And it shall be for a token upon thine hand, and for frontlets between thine eyes: for by strength of hand the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt.

.

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I don't think so. The mark of his name, in the forehead or right hand, my guess is that it will be a tattoo type symbol (I can't think of the right word not actually a tattoo, but something similar) reflecting the beast person's coming back to life, and his claim to be God.

I think it may be a symbol like a risen angel or person.

Because the world is going to wonder after the beast, I think it is going to something people (other than the saints) will want to take. What I think they are going to see is a way to have eternal life by duplicating or drawing on the power whatever the beast person claims as his power to have come back to life.

bye

Bipolargirl said:

do you think the book of revelation is written in order?
The book of revelation is confusing to me.

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Many have misunderstood Revelation in the past but I believe the Spirit is making it clear to the Church today what will come to pass. Yes, it is written down in chronological order...

Dr. D Bunker said:

Now let me show you something most people are unaware of. Understanding the proper meaning of the word ALL depends whether or not the article is used along with it, and the King James Version does Verse 16 no justice. When the article THE is used it implies something specific. Verse 16 "all" the individual classes of people in the REGION.

This is word for word in the Greek interlinear. The KJV has omitted the article 6 times, so I'm posting the link to the interlinear so you don't think I'm making this up.

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The article in Greek has a different meaning than in English. But the Greek says:

καὶ ποιεῖ (and it makes) πάντας (all OR everyone), τοὺς μικροὺς καὶ τοὺς μεγάλους (the small and the great OR both small and great), καὶ τοὺς πλουσίους καὶ τοὺς πτωχούς, καὶ τοὺςἐλευθέρους καὶ τοὺς δούλους (and the rich and the poor and the free and the slaves OR both rich and poor, both free and slave), ἵνα δῶσιν αὐτοῖς χάραγμα (to be marked OR to receive a mark) ἐπὶ τῆς χειρὸς αὐτῶν τῆς δεξιᾶς (on the/their right hand) ἢ ἐπὶ τὸ μέτωπον αὐτῶν (or on the/their forehead).

The NIV, ESV, and CSB all do a good job of translating this.

Dr. D Bunker said:

Vines, ..."Used with the article, it means the whole of one object (ge/earth/region). In the plural it signifies the totality of the persons or things referred to."

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Vine's is not entirely reliable. In Matthew 3:5, for example, πᾶσα with the article does not actually mean all of Judaea. In Mark 1:37, the plural does not signify the totality of all people.

Dr. D Bunker said:

The number of the verses in the Koran according to the scholars: Ibn-i Abbas (ra): 6616, Nafi (ra): 6217, Shayba (ra): 6214, Scholars of Egypt (ra): 6226, Zamahshari (ra) (the genius Eloquence Scholar of the Arabic language and literature); 6666. Bediuzzaman, mujaddid (the reformer) of the13.century, also has the opinion of 6666 verses. Isn't that a pretty good indication Islam is evil!

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That's a really, really, lousy argument. The number 6666 is very far from "six hundred, sixty, and six." And they didn't have Hindu-Arabic numerals back in those days.

Dr. D Bunker said:

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This is the word 'pas/all' (in a limited sense) and the word 'ge'/region). All of one region!

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No, it means all (or a great majority) of people in the whole earth. The word γῆ (gē) only refers to a specific country/region when (a) context makes that clear, or (b) the specific country/region is named.

If the verse meant what you say, it would say something like "all of a certain region," putting τις (tis) in front of the noun.

Your whole theory is without foundation, I'm afraid.

bye

bye

LittleLambofJesus said:

Sure it does.
There is a general consensus that Luke 21 is showing the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem.

Luke 21:24 and Revelation 11:2 and Revelation 13:10 go together like white on rice .......Do others just not want to see Revelation as 70ad Jerusalem for some reason?

This is still part of the Temple/Jerusalem discourse BEFORE 70AD

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10


Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 12:2
and the Court/fold, without of the Sanctuary, be casting-out! out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
and the holy City they shall be treading forty two months.

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The Destruction of Jerusalem

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, ................
.Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

........the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.
After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves,
or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ;
whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.[Deuteronomy 28:68]

Deuteronomy 28:
15 If, however, you do not obey Yahweh thy Elohim by carefully following all His commandments and statutes I am giving you today,
all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

68 “And Yahweh will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.'
And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.”;

Click to expand...

Nothing before verse 15 in Matthew (same with Luke) has anything to do with the book of Rev. (BoR), God gives us forerunners and He also gives us events that are like unto a future event as per 70 AD. That is why Jesu had to warn the Disciples so forcefully in Matthew 24:4-6, about the 70 AD event, he knew it would look just like he Zech. 14 Second Coming Event !! Thus he wanted t make sure any man claiming to be the Messiah was discounted by them.

If the Jews had of accepted Jesus as their Messiah would we have ever had a Church Age ? You ever thought about that ? Not saying God didn't know because He did, but God has a contingent for everything, if the Jews had accepted Jesus the 70 AD event, IMHO, would have ushered in the Millennial Kingdom. But of course God knowing all prophesied that a "STRANGE PEOPLE" would find him (Gentile Church) and that Israel would rebel, and become as Dead Men's Bones (Ezekiel 37).

Isaiah 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name. 2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

So 70 AD is like the Tribulation period for a reason. Just like the Little Horn arises from the Old Roman Empire (Fourth Beast) for a reason, just like the Statue goes from the Legs of Iron to the Feet of Iron/Clay/10 Toes. Take out the Church Age and everything is a SEAMLESS CONTINUUM, even the 70th Week would fit if the Jews had of accepted Christ, of course it would have still been a Gap from 30-33 AD to 7O AD, because the Prophecy was three prophecies, not one.

But without the Church Age inserted, if the Jews had of accepted Jesus like he wanted them to.

Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Jesus of course wanted the Jewish peoples to accept him, I think if they had he would have returned in 70 AD, but of course God knew that would not happen.

Thus all events on each side of the "Church Age" are sorta INTERLOCKING LINCOLN LOGS so to speak. The Four Beasts FITS TOGETHER without the Church Age, the Statue FITS TOGETHER without the Church Age, the 70 AD Event is just like the coming Anti-Christ/Tribulation Event.

So there is a reason they look alike, SAME BEAST but with a Little Horn Beast added in, same city Jerusalem, same sin of mankind, trying to rule themselves without God !!

Revealing Times said:

Nothing before verse 15 in Matthew (same with Luke) has anything to do with the book of Rev. (BoR), God gives us forerunners and He also gives us events that are like unto a future event as per 70 AD.!

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That is of course your opinion which I and many other Christians disagree with......

Do we have to wait on the Jews to build another Temple and Sanctuary before Revelation 11 is fulfilled? That is the Jews's worry, not mine.
I could harmonize most of Revelation just using Luke's Jerusalem/Temple discourses. [

LUKE 19, LUKE 21, LUKE 23, REVELATION JERUSALEM 70AD

Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.

24 And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

The Court in Revelation 11:2
The Court in Revelation 11:2

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833>[water lavar/Altar of Sacrifice], without of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
and the holy City they shall be treading<3961> (5692) forty two months.

.Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the Saints

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The Destruction of Jerusalem

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, .................
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

........the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.
After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves,
or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ;
whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.[Deuteronomy 28:68]



.

friend of said:

What about Revelation 13:3 ??

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

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The Wound was Rome, we had no Beast after Rome for nigh 2000 years, the gates of hell can not overcome the Church, the Church turned Rome from a Beast into a Conveyor belt of Christendom !! There can be no Beast without Israel either,(the bible is about Israel) and God saw Israel as Dead Men's Bones until 1948 when He breathed life back into those bones.

So the WOUND is of one of the Seven Heads, just like Rev. 13 says, then the Anti-Christ Conquering Jerusalem/Israel HEALS the Wound of the Seven Headed Beast, a figurative Beast. In other words there was Egypt over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region (MSR), then Assyria was over Israel and the MSR, and then Babylon was over Israel and the MSR, followed by Persia, Greece and Rome, all over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region. Then there was NO BEAST over Israel, because there was no Israel to Beast over, thus the MORTAL WOUND of the Figurative Beast.

Then 2000 years later Israel was reborn, as was the Fourth Beast via the European Union, now all we are waiting on is the Assyrian (Turk, Isaiah ch. 10) born in Greece (Dan. 8), who comes to power in the E.U. (Dan. 7). When that happens then the Beast will be REVIVED/HEALED just as Rev. 13:1-3 says, if we read it properly, it's about a BEAST with 7 Heads, thus the Leopard, Bear and Lion are all mentioned on purpose, so we know who these Beasts are.

Rev. 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns (The 6 that is PAST and the coming Anti-Christ and 10 Kings), and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard (Greece), and his feet were as the feet of a bear(Persia), and his mouth as the mouth of a lion(Babylon): and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death(Rome); and his deadly wound was healed (Anti-Christ CONQUERS Israel) and all the world wondered after the beast.

The previous 6 Beasts were Kingdoms, the LAST BEAST Head will be a MAN just like Rev. 13 says, he has the NUMBER of a Man 666. Rev. 17 tells us it's a Man also, there are 7 Mountains which equal 7 Kingdoms who arise, the last one is juxtaposed against 5 Kings who fell ONE which was still in power but would eventually fall as a power (Rome Mortal Wound) AND the coming Little Horn/Anti-Christ which will be the only BEAST KINGDOM to have the King that Arises also be the King that FALLS !! Which is why we get the 5 Kings that FALL in the first place, we are supposed to understand this Last Beast will be a MAN.........a one man show so to speak. When he is defeated he will be cast stright int hell as the Beast, just like Daniel and Revelation says !!

Dan. 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So THE BEAST is a MAN........Kingdoms are not cast into hell, men and Demons are. The above proves the BEAST is a MAN, don't listen to anything else brother. People will confuse you, do the grunt work yourself or find someone that knows and heed their voice. Or just read my posts !!

Revealing Times said:

The Wound was Rome, wehad no Beast after Rome for nigh 2000 years, the gates of hell can not overcome the Church, !!

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The Great City in Revelation is 70ad Jerusalem sacked by the Roman/Gentiles army.
The Great City of Rome got sacked about 400 yrs later.by the Vandals........
Both sacks are similar and according to pictures I saw,
the Romans took the Jewish Menorah,
then the Vandals took it from the Romans after sacking their city.
[There may be an OT prophecy on those events]

Posted on this other thread:

N.T. Wright - Challenging his theology

Siege of Jerusalem (70 CE) - Wikipedia

The siege ended on 30 August 70 CE[3] with the burning and destruction of its Second Temple, and the Romans entered and sacked the Lower City.

The destruction of both the first and second temples is still mourned annually as the Jewish fast Tisha B'Av.
===================================
Jeremiah 51:8
Babylon has suddenly fallen and been destroyed. Wail for her!
Take balm for her pain; Perhaps she may be healed.
Revelation 14:8
And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great,
the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".

The Arch of Titus, celebrating the Roman sack of Jerusalem and the Temple, still stands in Rome. The conquest of the city was complete on 8 September 70 CE.




=======================================

Then some 400 centuries later, God took down the Roman Empire and the invaders took off with the Menorah.

Sack of Rome (410) - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_(410)
The Roman army meanwhile became increasingly barbarian and disloyal to the Empire. A more severe sack of Rome by the Vandals followed in 455, and the Western Roman Empire finally collapsed in 476 when the Germanic Odovacer removed the last Western Roman Emperor, Romulus Augustulus, and declared himself King of Italy.

This picture shows a Menorah being taken during the sacking of Rome.

Sack of Rome (455) - Wikipedia
What Caused The Fall of the Roman Empire?

,

ewq1938 said:

No, scripture says it's a mountain. It's an area of land where there was a very bad war but the people there survive and the kingdom(s) within that area of land recover. This thing about a man dying from a head wound is fiction based on bad exegesis of Rev 13 (and 17).

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

ὄρος
oros
or'-os
Probably a from an obsolete word ὄρω orō (to rise or “rear”; perhaps akin to G142; compare G3733); a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain): - hill, mount (-ain).

In order to understand what these are we have to know what a mountain in prophecy symbolizes:


Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Barnes:

And as it were a great mountain - A mountain is a natural symbol of strength, and hence becomes a symbol of a strong and powerful kingdom; for mountains arc not only places of strength in themselves, but they anciently answered the purposes of fortified places, and were the seats of power. Hence, they are properly symbols of strong nations. “The stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth,” Dan_2:35. Compare Zec_4:7; Jer_51:25. We naturally, then, apply this part of the symbol to some strong and mighty nation - not a nation, necessarily, that issued from a mountainous region but a nation that in strength resembled a mountain.


Clarke:

Revelation 8:8

Mountain, in prophetic language, signifies a kingdom; Jer_51:25, Jer_51:27, Jer_51:30, Jer_51:58. Great disorders,


So a mountain can be a kingdom or a place of strength. This beast is composed of 7 mountains but has ten kings and kingdoms within. This means a mountain is either a single kingdom or is more than one kingdom within a single mountain being that there are ten kingdoms fitting into these 7 mountains so some mountains must have more than one kingdom. Mountains then would be areas of the world where a kingdom or more exist. Everything about this beast suggests a global reign and the world is divided into 7 continents so it makes sense to think of the world divided into ten kingdoms that span the 7 continents or mountains of the Earth.

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A Mountain represents a Kingdom/POWER. So the 7 Mountains are the 7 Heads of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece (the 5 who HAD FALLEN) and the one who WAS (Rome) and the one who was YET TO COME (Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast). They are also 7 Kings, 5 have fallen etc. etc. reduces them from Kingdoms to KINGS WHO FALL...........Now God can show us the last King's demise. He will be cast into hell as the LAST BEAST HEAD. A Power (Mountain) that arises above the plains is a Kingdom, they all arise with an original King and they all FALL with ONE KING at the helm also. Only the Last Beast both ARISES & FALLS as a Beast !! He is cast straight into hell.

Douggg said:

Where's the woman in Revelation 13 ?

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The False Prophet takes over for the Harlot (False Religion) and directs ALL MEN to Worship the Beast or die !! That is why the Kings kill off the Harlot which means Islam will be destroyed, along with all other FALSE RELIGIONS save the Beasts false religion whom the God/Jesus will destroy.