Who got your Saved?? POLL

Who got you saved???????????????????????????????

  • God and me -- yes, I also did my part

    Votes: 11 35.5%
  • Me alone I made the right decision -- apparently smarter than my neighbor

    Votes: 1 3.2%
  • God did it all -- thank God I was not involved!

    Votes: 19 61.3%

  • Total voters
    31

FredVB

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FredVB said:
I am not sure of certainty of scripture basis for various of the Calvinist points. But in particular the irresistible grace of God with which people are saved, that is claimed, has no basis in scriptures that I ever find. So I don't have basis to reinterpret what is shown from the second epistle of Peter that God is not willing that any should perish, but would that all come to repentance with which there is salvation. That any don't is their own fault with their choices. Yahweh gives grace for the ability to respond with repentant faith for salvation, but this grace isn't shown anywhere to be irresistible.

We are told do things, and to choose, for God, in the scriptures. If God just unconditionally elected any of us, there would not be the need for all the passages with emphasis to choose. We should choose, and should choose rightly, but saying we don't really choose and it is all God's doing, when God yet says choose, in the Bible, is really secondguessing God.

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Fred

I can understand what you are saying...

You may find this helpful, if you open in thread in "ask a calvinist" I would be more than happy to interact with you.

TULIP and Reformed Theology: Irresistible Grace

No one deny's a choice is needed there is a thread that is digging in to that.

How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

Can you say something for what you say in those threads, here? I get a bit tired of how involving CF is with discussing anything and having those in disagreement going on with me discussing it, for whatever it would be about. If you do show what you say in the threads mentioned, it may still interest me. I just want to know ahead of going to it.

I will just say here I am never claiming fallen human nature chooses Christ. Follow this, please, if you will. Yahweh's grace is made available, with grace given, with one learning of the needed revealed truth, this repentant faith may be the response, it just isn't irresistible grace though, some respond this way, the others are just resisting that, and will run out of opportunities, though Yahweh's will was not for any to perish, but Yahweh is just.

Mountainmanbob said:
Question: "What does it mean that God draws us to salvation?"

Answer:
The clearest verse on God’s drawing to salvation is John 6:44 where Jesus declares that “no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part.

GotQuestions.org Home

This sounds just too irresponsible. We are supposed to be doing things that this neglects.

God does things that are initiating what we can do, that we won't do ourselves. But it is for us to repent in faith, and do things, as we are enabled. There are those not doing that, though there is provision for that.
 
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BBAS 64

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Can you say something for what you say in those threads, here? I get a bit tired of how involving CF is with discussing anything and having those in disagreement going on with me discussing it, for whatever it would be about. If you do show what you say in the threads mentioned, it may still interest me. I just want to know ahead of going to it.

I will just say here I am never claiming fallen human nature chooses Christ. Follow this, please, if you will. Yahweh's grace is made available, with grace given, with one learning of the needed revealed truth, this repentant faith may be the response, it just isn't irresistible grace though, some respond this way, the others are just resisting that, and will run out of opportunities, though Yahweh's will was not for any to perish, but Yahweh is just.



This sounds just too irresponsible. We are supposed to be doing things that this neglects.

God does things that are initiating what we can do, that we won't do ourselves. But it is for us to repent in faith, and do things, as we are enabled. There are those not doing that, though there is provision for that.


Good Day, Fred

As the link suggested "irresistible grace" is some what misunderstood do to the word irresistible.

Effectual Grace is much better in reality as Gods grace always brings about it's intention and purpose.

I do follow what you are saying... I really do, as always Thanks of the discussion.

In Him,

Bill
 
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FredVB

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BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Fred

As the link suggested "irresistible grace" is some what misunderstood do to the word irresistible.

Effectual Grace is much better in reality as Gods grace always brings about it's intention and purpose.

I do follow what you are saying... I really do, as always Thanks of the discussion.

Thanks for politely discussing it, and sharing the point from that site. I didn't want to go offsite from Christian Forums with a link, which is to a site of the pastor, who was not involved in discussion here and is not interested in taking part in discussion here, who I am not talking to. Points for discussion should be made here, links should be used in the way footnotes are for showing sources or further information.

Effectual grace amounts to saying the same thing, that God selectively gives it to some, and not most others, that those God's grace is given to are all saved, and those others are never saved and have no opportunity. I don't see that being the case at all, and I am in fact sorry that some see that being the case. I trust scriptures and they don't show that it is the case.

As for being directed to another thread, I will just respond to the post being directed to.

redleghunter said:
As Christians we know that since the Fall of mankind in Genesis 3 we are children of Adam and as such our nature is fallen.

The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 depicts a dire sinful state we are in as children of wrath.

Ephesians 2: ESV

1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.(ESV)

A dire picture contrasted by the Amazing Grace, Mercy and Love of God.

What’s interesting is the chapter begins with Paul telling his audience that they were dead in their trespasses, following satan and the spirit at work in the sons of disobedience. They lived in passions of our flesh carrying out the desires of the body and by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

But the good news Paul tells us is that God made them alive together with Christ then says this is by Grace.

How does one come to choose this Grace when even when we were dead in our trespasses it was God who made us alive?

Some say we choose God and then He makes us alive. Well the passage clearly says God makes us alive by His Grace. If this is someone’s view they will have to explain it.

Some say God equally calls all and some choose and some reject. That would be adding to the text but I would like to hear a discussion on how this happens and why some are more inclined than others to accept than reject.

Some say God calls all to the Gospel but not everyone has ears to hear and eyes to see. This is called the difference between general call and effectual call. With effectual call being those who hear with ears which hear do choose God but with a new heart which is not dead. That “The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

I’m sure there are other views and hope to see them so we can discuss them. I think we all agree unless one is a Universalist there are those who accept Christ and those who reject Him. The Bible says such or Jesus would not preach sheep and goats.

So how does someone dead in their trespasses and sins, children of satan after the ways of the flesh by nature children of wrath come to hear the Gospel and choose Christ making Him their Lord and Savior thus loving and obeying Him?

This seems just, excuse the phrase, humanly impossible.

I have already dealt with answering that, its use is a strawman argument to counter what I say, as I explain already that fallen nature does not choose proper response to Yahweh. Hearing is by the word of God. God's grace is enabling. God is not willing that any just perish, but would that all would come to repentance with which there is salvation. All will have that opportunity to some extent, there are none that were created doomed from then to just come to damnation forever with no opportunity ever for otherwise. It is not a good doctrine that would write off any from having the gospel of salvation shared with them.
 
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FredVB

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Judas Iscariot was chosen and was in Jesus's circle of disciples who went with Jesus. We can say that he was called and that grace was given to Judas. He ultimately did have something to say about it, with it being his choice. So it can be said from this that grace is neither always irresistible nor always effectual. Individuals can turn from it, though they were not saved such that they had eternal life provided to them, in Christ. That is effectual.

This that was posted explained it well.

Genesis 4:7 and Matthew 23:37 are pretty solid in regards to man having free will with God. We have an entire Bible of God lamenting over man's ... bad choices. If God predetermined some men to be saved and others to be evil, the Bible really wouldn't make any sense.
 
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