FredVB
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- Mar 11, 2010
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FredVB said:I am not sure of certainty of scripture basis for various of the Calvinist points. But in particular the irresistible grace of God with which people are saved, that is claimed, has no basis in scriptures that I ever find. So I don't have basis to reinterpret what is shown from the second epistle of Peter that God is not willing that any should perish, but would that all come to repentance with which there is salvation. That any don't is their own fault with their choices. Yahweh gives grace for the ability to respond with repentant faith for salvation, but this grace isn't shown anywhere to be irresistible.
We are told do things, and to choose, for God, in the scriptures. If God just unconditionally elected any of us, there would not be the need for all the passages with emphasis to choose. We should choose, and should choose rightly, but saying we don't really choose and it is all God's doing, when God yet says choose, in the Bible, is really secondguessing God.
BBAS 64 said:Good Day, Fred
I can understand what you are saying...
You may find this helpful, if you open in thread in "ask a calvinist" I would be more than happy to interact with you.
TULIP and Reformed Theology: Irresistible Grace
No one deny's a choice is needed there is a thread that is digging in to that.
How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?
Can you say something for what you say in those threads, here? I get a bit tired of how involving CF is with discussing anything and having those in disagreement going on with me discussing it, for whatever it would be about. If you do show what you say in the threads mentioned, it may still interest me. I just want to know ahead of going to it.
I will just say here I am never claiming fallen human nature chooses Christ. Follow this, please, if you will. Yahweh's grace is made available, with grace given, with one learning of the needed revealed truth, this repentant faith may be the response, it just isn't irresistible grace though, some respond this way, the others are just resisting that, and will run out of opportunities, though Yahweh's will was not for any to perish, but Yahweh is just.
Mountainmanbob said:Question: "What does it mean that God draws us to salvation?"
Answer: The clearest verse on God’s drawing to salvation is John 6:44 where Jesus declares that “no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part.
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This sounds just too irresponsible. We are supposed to be doing things that this neglects.
God does things that are initiating what we can do, that we won't do ourselves. But it is for us to repent in faith, and do things, as we are enabled. There are those not doing that, though there is provision for that.
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