How does one correctly keep the Sabbath according to SDA doctrine?

mmksparbud said:

Then give me the bible verse that says that!! Very simple. What you mean by no God no work---I do not know.

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Lack of real Bible study and the acceptance of Ellen White will cause that.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

It may or may not be findable online resources TODAY. Patricks sabbath keeping and the whole country (he was in) sabbath keeping WAS ONCE WELL KNOWN.

Like many other things, history has been largely both forgotten AND re-written.

"LOOK IT UP" , i.e. AS JESUS SAYS - seek for the truth, AND KEEP SEEKING.

do not rely on men, anywhere.

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Thank you.

mmksparbud said:

Then give me the bible verse that says that!! Very simple. What you mean by no God no work---I do not know.

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That has been done now about a dozen times. Why do you need them again?

Major1 said:

SEMATICS!

YOU as a Seventh-day Adventist have a theological position that leads YOU to conclude that “the Lord’s day’ refers to the Sabbath. However, there is nothing in the first two centuries of church history to support this view. First there is no other example from the second century church fathers where ‘the Lord’s day’ was ever used to refer to the Sabbath.

In addition to that, the Seventh-day Adventist theological position leads them to conclude that “the Lord’s day’ refers to the Sabbath, there is nothing in the first two centuries of church history to support this view---NOTHING!. There is no other example from the second century church fathers where ‘the Lord’s day’ was ever used to refer to the Sabbath. THAT IS REAL HISTORY.

Now please think! Under the LAW which you are trying to mix with grace to say that we MUST attend worship services on Saturday, in the Old Test. LAW if one even went out to gather sticks on the Sabbath in order to kindle a fire in Numbers 15:32-36, he was to be put to death.

That is what you are supporting. So then, how do you explain the act of driving your car to church to worship???? That world be breaking the Sabbath law.

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Major1 said:

That has been done now about a dozen times. Why do you need them again?

Click to expand...

If you would learn how to read anything other than what agrees with your theory you would have already read the many reports about Saturday worship before and after the 2nd century. I posted them. You obviously read nothing about St. Patrick and the early Irish church and know nothing about history itself so you will be content with your own counsel. For those who want truth-- For those who are interested in real history--(I know that is not you and you can't read more than a few words at a time so this will not interest you)--
2nd Century
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." - A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p. 77

Early Christians

"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).

"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14

"The primitive Christians did keep the
Sabbath of the Jews
;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

Early Church

"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77

Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. Paul the Apostle foretold a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.

2nd Century Christians

"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.

2nd, 3rd, 4th Centuries

"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.
2nd Century. Early Christians


"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to that purpose." Dialogue on the Lord's Day, p.189. London: 1701. By Dr. T.H. Morer (Church of England).





3rd and 4th Centuries. Orient and Most of the World


1. "The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day. . .It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival. . . . Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath; Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the Christian Church, Vol. II. Book XX, chap 3, Sec. 1 66.1137, 1138.

2. Council of Laodicea. "From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observation of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors; yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." Sunday a Sabbath, John Ley, p. 163. London: 1640.

3. "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s Day they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ." Catholic Church Council in Laodicea, 364AD, Canon 29.





5th Century. Constantinople


"The people of Constantinople and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." Socrates, Ecclesiastical History, Book 7, chap. 19.





6th Century. Rome


"About 590, Pope Gregory, in a letter to the Roman people, denounced as the prophets of Antichrist those who maintained that work ought not to be done on the seventh day." James T. Ringgold, The Law of Sunday, p. 267.





7th Century. Scotland and Ireland


"It seems to have been customary in the Celtic churches of early times, in Ireland as well as Scotland, to keep Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, as a day of rest from labour. They obeyed the fourth commandment literally upon the seventh day of the week." Professor James C. Moffatt, D.D., Professor of Church History at Princeton, The Church in Scotland, p. 140.





8th Century. India, China, Persia


"Widespread and enduring was the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath among the believers of the Church of the East and the St. Thomas Christians of India, who never were connected with Rome. It also was maintained among those bodies which broke off from Rome after the Council of Chalcedon namely, the Abyssinians, the Jacobites, the Maronites, and Armenians." Schaff-Herzog, The New Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, art. Nestorians; also Realencyclopaedie fur Protestantische Theologie und Kirche, art Nestorianer.





10th Century. Church of the East. Kurdistan


"The Nestorians eat no pork and keep the Sabbath. They believe in neither auricular confession nor purgatory." Schaff-Herzog, The New Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, art. Nestorians.





11th Century. Scotland


They held that Saturday was properly the Sabbath on which they abstained from work. Celtic Scotland, Vol. 2, p. 350.





12th Century. Wales


"There is much evidence that the Sabbath prevailed in Wales universally until A.D. 1115, when the first Roman bishop was seated at St. David's. The old Welsh Sabbath-keeping churches did not even then altogether bow the knee to Rome, but fled to their hiding places." Lewis, Seventh Day Baptists in Europe and America, Vol. 1, p. 29.





13th Century. Waldenses of France


1. "The inquisitors. . . [declare] that the sign of a Vaudois, deemed worthy of death, was that he followed Christ and sought to obey the commandments of God." History of the Inquisition of the Middle Ages, H.C. Lea, Vol. 1.

2. Revelation 12:17 & 14:12. "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.". . . "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."









15th Century. Norway


1. "We are informed that some people in different districts of the kingdom, have adopted and observed Saturdaykeeping. It is severely forbidden - in holy church canon - one and all to observe days excepting those which the holy Pope, archbishop, or the bishops command. Saturdaykeeping must under no circumstances be permitted hereafter further than the church canon commands. Therefore, we counsel all the friends of God throughout all Norway who want to be obedient towards the holy church to let this evil of Saturdaykeeping alone; and the rest we forbid under penalty of severe church punishment to keep Saturday holy." Catholic Provincial Council at Bergen. 1435 Dip. Norveg., 7, 397.

2. Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws."





16th Century. Council of Trent


1. "On the 18th of January, 1563, the Council of Trent ruled that Tradition is greater than Scripture, after a powerful speech by the Archbishop of Reggio, in which he said that the fact that the Church had changed the Fourth Commandment clearly proved that Tradition was greater than Scripture." H.J. Holtzman, Kanon und Tradition, 1859 edition, p. 263.

2. Matthew 15:3, 6-9. Jesus replied "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?", " Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

3. Holland and Germany: Babara of Thiers, who was executed in 1529, declared: "God has commanded us to rest on the seventh day." Martyrology of the Churches of Christ, commonly called Baptists, during the era of the Reformation, from the Dutch of T.J. Van Braght, London 1850, 1, pp. 113-4.

4. Russia: "The accused [Sabbathkeepers] were summoned; they openly acknowledged the new faith, and defended the same. The most eminent of them, the secretary of state, Kuritzyn, Ivan Maximow, Kassian, archimandrite of the Jury Monastery of Novgorod, were condemned to death, and burned publicly in cages, at Moscow, Dec. 27, 1503."(Council, Moscow, 1503). H. Sternberf, Geschichte der Juden (Leipzig, 1873), pp. 1117-122.

5. Sweden: "This zeal for Saturdaykeeping continued for a long time; even little things which might strengthen the practice of keeping Saturday were punished." Bishop Anjou, Svenska Kirkans Historia efter Motet i Upsala.

6. Europe: About the year 1520 many of these Sabbathkeepers found shelter on the estate of Lord Leonhardt of Lichtensein, "as the princes of Lichtenstein held to the observance of the true Sabbath." History of the Sabbath, J.N. Andrews, p. 649, ed.

7. India: "The famous Jesuit, Francis Xavier, called for the Inquisition, which was set up in Goa, India, in 1560, to check the 'Jewish wickedness' (Sabbathkeeping)." Adeney, The Greek and Eastern Churches, p. 527-528.

8. Abyssinia: "It is not therefore, in imitation of the Jews, but in obedience to Christ and His holy apostles, that we observe that day." (Abyssinian legate at court of Lisbon, 1534). Geddes' Church History of Ethiopia, pp. 87-8.





17th Century


1. England: "Here in England are about nine or ten churches that keep the Sabbath, besides many scattered disciples, who have been eminently preserved." Stennet's letters, 1668 and 1670. Cox. Sab., 1, 268.

2. Dr. Peter Chamberlain: Dr. Peter Chamberlain was physician to King James and Queen Katherine. The inscription on the monument over his grave says Dr. Chamberlain was "a Christian, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, being baptized about the year 1648, and keeping the seventh day for the Sabbath above thirty-two years."

3. America: "Stephen Mumford, the first Sabbathkeeper in America came from London in 1664." History of the Seventh Day Baptist General Conference by Jas. Bailey, pp. 237-238.

4. England: "It will surely be far safer to observe the seventh day, according to the express commandment of God, than on the authority of mere human conjecture to adopt the first." John Milton, Sab. Lit, 2, 46-54.





18th Century


1. Rumania (1760): "Joseph II's edict of tolerance did not apply to the Sabbatarians, some of whom again lost all of their possessions." Jahrgang 2, 254.

2. Bohemia and Moravia: "The condition of the Sabbatarians [from 1635 to 1867] was dreadful. Their books and writings had to be delivered to the Karlsburg Consistory to become the spoil of flames." Adolf Dux, Aus Ungarn, pp. 2889-291. Leipzig, 18880.

3. America: "But before Zinzendorf and the Moravians at Bethlehem thus began the observance of the Sabbath and prospered, there was a small body of German Sabbathkeepers in Pennsylvania." Rupp's History of Religious Denominations in the United States, pp. 109-123.





19th Century to Present


1. America: The Seventh-day Adventist movement was formed around 1844.

2. Orient: "In many of the Oriental churches the Sabbath (Saturday) was still observed like Sunday, while in the West a large number, by way of opposition to Jewish institutions, held a fast on that day." George Park Fisher, History of the Christian Church, (New York: Scribner, 1900), 1 18; quoted in Bible Students' Source Book (Washington D. C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1962), 866

3. China: "The Taipings when asked why they observed the seventh day Sabbath, replied that it was, first, because the Bible taught it, and second, because their ancestors observed it as a day of worship." A Critical History of the Sabbath and the Sunday.

4. Sweden: "We will now endeavor to show that the sanctification of the Sabbath has its foundation and its origin in a law which God at creation itself established for the whole world, and as a consequence thereof is binding on all men in all ages." May 30, 1863, p. 169. Evangelisten (The Evangelist) Stockholm, May 30 to August 15, 1863 (organ of the Swedish Baptist Church).

5. The following is a quote from a Catholic magazine, The Catholic Mirror: "The Catholic Church for over 1,000 years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day [of worship] from Saturday to Sunday. . . . In the Old Testament, reference is made 126 times to the Sabbath, and all these texts conspire harmoniously in voicing the will of God commanding the seventh day to be kept, because God Himself first kept it, making it obligatory on all as 'a perpetual covenant.' Nor can we imagine any one foolhardy enough to question the identity of Saturday with the Sabbath or seventh day, seeing that the people of Israel have been keeping Saturday from the giving of the law 2514 BC to the present . . . Examining the New Testament from cover to cover critically, we find the Sabbath referred to 61 times. We find, too, that the Savior invariably selected the Sabbath (Saturday) to teach in the synagogues and work miracles. The four Gospels refer to the Sabbath (Saturday) 51 times. . . . Hence the conclusion is inevitable . . . that of those who follow the Bible as their guide, the Israelites and the Seventh-day Adventists, have the exclusive weight of evidence on their side, whilst the biblical Protestant has not a word in self-defense for his substitution of Sunday for Saturday. . . . They have ignored and condemned their teacher, the Bible . . . and they have adopted a day [instituted and] kept by the Catholic Church." Official publication of Cardinal Gibbons and the Papacy in the United States, published in Baltimore, Maryland, September 1893.

We gratefully acknowledge J.F. Coltheart, who personally consulted old manuscripts and the original sources of many of these quotations in the libraries and museums of Europe and also in Constantinople and the East.

mmksparbud said:

If you would learn how to read anything other than what agrees with your theory

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This is key to why tradition wins the hearts and minds of mankind, and doesn't let them go, the very idea of tradition clamps down tight and won't let them believe what does not agree with their theories, even though they are manmade theories and not Godmade theories. By blocking them from seeking to know the truth, by blocking from searching the truth out, the very rules of tradition even when contrary to God's Word, the rules that are not in Scripture, but made to protect from believing Scripture, the rules are made to protect tradition, regardless of the facts, by preventing access to the facts, in the mind and heart at least - since the Scripture, God's Word, can still be read, but doesn't help, as it is read without belief, as is written of Israel when they fell also, when the truth did not benefit them because , not of facts they did not know, but because knowing even hearing Yahweh was not accompanied with faith, but with unbelief.

mmksparbud said:

If you would learn how to read anything other than what agrees with your theory you would have already read the many reports about Saturday worship before and after the 2nd century. I posted them. You obviously read nothing about St. Patrick and the early Irish church and know nothing about history itself so you will be content with your own counsel. For those who want truth-- For those who are interested in real history--(I know that is not you and you can't read more than a few words at a time so this will not interest you)--
2nd Century
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." - A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p. 77

Early Christians

"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).

"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14

"The primitive Christians did keep the
Sabbath of the Jews
;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

Early Church

"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77

Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. Paul the Apostle foretold a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.

2nd Century Christians

"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.

2nd, 3rd, 4th Centuries

"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.
2nd Century. Early Christians


"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to that purpose." Dialogue on the Lord's Day, p.189. London: 1701. By Dr. T.H. Morer (Church of England).





3rd and 4th Centuries. Orient and Most of the World


1. "The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day. . .It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival. . . . Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath; Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the Christian Church, Vol. II. Book XX, chap 3, Sec. 1 66.1137, 1138.

2. Council of Laodicea. "From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observation of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors; yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." Sunday a Sabbath, John Ley, p. 163. London: 1640.

3. "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s Day they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ." Catholic Church Council in Laodicea, 364AD, Canon 29.





5th Century. Constantinople


"The people of Constantinople and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." Socrates, Ecclesiastical History, Book 7, chap. 19.





6th Century. Rome


"About 590, Pope Gregory, in a letter to the Roman people, denounced as the prophets of Antichrist those who maintained that work ought not to be done on the seventh day." James T. Ringgold, The Law of Sunday, p. 267.





7th Century. Scotland and Ireland


"It seems to have been customary in the Celtic churches of early times, in Ireland as well as Scotland, to keep Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, as a day of rest from labour. They obeyed the fourth commandment literally upon the seventh day of the week." Professor James C. Moffatt, D.D., Professor of Church History at Princeton, The Church in Scotland, p. 140.





8th Century. India, China, Persia


"Widespread and enduring was the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath among the believers of the Church of the East and the St. Thomas Christians of India, who never were connected with Rome. It also was maintained among those bodies which broke off from Rome after the Council of Chalcedon namely, the Abyssinians, the Jacobites, the Maronites, and Armenians." Schaff-Herzog, The New Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, art. Nestorians; also Realencyclopaedie fur Protestantische Theologie und Kirche, art Nestorianer.





10th Century. Church of the East. Kurdistan


"The Nestorians eat no pork and keep the Sabbath. They believe in neither auricular confession nor purgatory." Schaff-Herzog, The New Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, art. Nestorians.





11th Century. Scotland


They held that Saturday was properly the Sabbath on which they abstained from work. Celtic Scotland, Vol. 2, p. 350.





12th Century. Wales


"There is much evidence that the Sabbath prevailed in Wales universally until A.D. 1115, when the first Roman bishop was seated at St. David's. The old Welsh Sabbath-keeping churches did not even then altogether bow the knee to Rome, but fled to their hiding places." Lewis, Seventh Day Baptists in Europe and America, Vol. 1, p. 29.





13th Century. Waldenses of France


1. "The inquisitors. . . [declare] that the sign of a Vaudois, deemed worthy of death, was that he followed Christ and sought to obey the commandments of God." History of the Inquisition of the Middle Ages, H.C. Lea, Vol. 1.

2. Revelation 12:17 & 14:12. "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.". . . "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."









15th Century. Norway


1. "We are informed that some people in different districts of the kingdom, have adopted and observed Saturdaykeeping. It is severely forbidden - in holy church canon - one and all to observe days excepting those which the holy Pope, archbishop, or the bishops command. Saturdaykeeping must under no circumstances be permitted hereafter further than the church canon commands. Therefore, we counsel all the friends of God throughout all Norway who want to be obedient towards the holy church to let this evil of Saturdaykeeping alone; and the rest we forbid under penalty of severe church punishment to keep Saturday holy." Catholic Provincial Council at Bergen. 1435 Dip. Norveg., 7, 397.

2. Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws."





16th Century. Council of Trent


1. "On the 18th of January, 1563, the Council of Trent ruled that Tradition is greater than Scripture, after a powerful speech by the Archbishop of Reggio, in which he said that the fact that the Church had changed the Fourth Commandment clearly proved that Tradition was greater than Scripture." H.J. Holtzman, Kanon und Tradition, 1859 edition, p. 263.

2. Matthew 15:3, 6-9. Jesus replied "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?", " Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

3. Holland and Germany: Babara of Thiers, who was executed in 1529, declared: "God has commanded us to rest on the seventh day." Martyrology of the Churches of Christ, commonly called Baptists, during the era of the Reformation, from the Dutch of T.J. Van Braght, London 1850, 1, pp. 113-4.

4. Russia: "The accused [Sabbathkeepers] were summoned; they openly acknowledged the new faith, and defended the same. The most eminent of them, the secretary of state, Kuritzyn, Ivan Maximow, Kassian, archimandrite of the Jury Monastery of Novgorod, were condemned to death, and burned publicly in cages, at Moscow, Dec. 27, 1503."(Council, Moscow, 1503). H. Sternberf, Geschichte der Juden (Leipzig, 1873), pp. 1117-122.

5. Sweden: "This zeal for Saturdaykeeping continued for a long time; even little things which might strengthen the practice of keeping Saturday were punished." Bishop Anjou, Svenska Kirkans Historia efter Motet i Upsala.

6. Europe: About the year 1520 many of these Sabbathkeepers found shelter on the estate of Lord Leonhardt of Lichtensein, "as the princes of Lichtenstein held to the observance of the true Sabbath." History of the Sabbath, J.N. Andrews, p. 649, ed.

7. India: "The famous Jesuit, Francis Xavier, called for the Inquisition, which was set up in Goa, India, in 1560, to check the 'Jewish wickedness' (Sabbathkeeping)." Adeney, The Greek and Eastern Churches, p. 527-528.

8. Abyssinia: "It is not therefore, in imitation of the Jews, but in obedience to Christ and His holy apostles, that we observe that day." (Abyssinian legate at court of Lisbon, 1534). Geddes' Church History of Ethiopia, pp. 87-8.





17th Century


1. England: "Here in England are about nine or ten churches that keep the Sabbath, besides many scattered disciples, who have been eminently preserved." Stennet's letters, 1668 and 1670. Cox. Sab., 1, 268.

2. Dr. Peter Chamberlain: Dr. Peter Chamberlain was physician to King James and Queen Katherine. The inscription on the monument over his grave says Dr. Chamberlain was "a Christian, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, being baptized about the year 1648, and keeping the seventh day for the Sabbath above thirty-two years."

3. America: "Stephen Mumford, the first Sabbathkeeper in America came from London in 1664." History of the Seventh Day Baptist General Conference by Jas. Bailey, pp. 237-238.

4. England: "It will surely be far safer to observe the seventh day, according to the express commandment of God, than on the authority of mere human conjecture to adopt the first." John Milton, Sab. Lit, 2, 46-54.





18th Century


1. Rumania (1760): "Joseph II's edict of tolerance did not apply to the Sabbatarians, some of whom again lost all of their possessions." Jahrgang 2, 254.

2. Bohemia and Moravia: "The condition of the Sabbatarians [from 1635 to 1867] was dreadful. Their books and writings had to be delivered to the Karlsburg Consistory to become the spoil of flames." Adolf Dux, Aus Ungarn, pp. 2889-291. Leipzig, 18880.

3. America: "But before Zinzendorf and the Moravians at Bethlehem thus began the observance of the Sabbath and prospered, there was a small body of German Sabbathkeepers in Pennsylvania." Rupp's History of Religious Denominations in the United States, pp. 109-123.





19th Century to Present


1. America: The Seventh-day Adventist movement was formed around 1844.

2. Orient: "In many of the Oriental churches the Sabbath (Saturday) was still observed like Sunday, while in the West a large number, by way of opposition to Jewish institutions, held a fast on that day." George Park Fisher, History of the Christian Church, (New York: Scribner, 1900), 1 18; quoted in Bible Students' Source Book (Washington D. C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1962), 866

3. China: "The Taipings when asked why they observed the seventh day Sabbath, replied that it was, first, because the Bible taught it, and second, because their ancestors observed it as a day of worship." A Critical History of the Sabbath and the Sunday.

4. Sweden: "We will now endeavor to show that the sanctification of the Sabbath has its foundation and its origin in a law which God at creation itself established for the whole world, and as a consequence thereof is binding on all men in all ages." May 30, 1863, p. 169. Evangelisten (The Evangelist) Stockholm, May 30 to August 15, 1863 (organ of the Swedish Baptist Church).

5. The following is a quote from a Catholic magazine, The Catholic Mirror: "The Catholic Church for over 1,000 years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day [of worship] from Saturday to Sunday. . . . In the Old Testament, reference is made 126 times to the Sabbath, and all these texts conspire harmoniously in voicing the will of God commanding the seventh day to be kept, because God Himself first kept it, making it obligatory on all as 'a perpetual covenant.' Nor can we imagine any one foolhardy enough to question the identity of Saturday with the Sabbath or seventh day, seeing that the people of Israel have been keeping Saturday from the giving of the law 2514 BC to the present . . . Examining the New Testament from cover to cover critically, we find the Sabbath referred to 61 times. We find, too, that the Savior invariably selected the Sabbath (Saturday) to teach in the synagogues and work miracles. The four Gospels refer to the Sabbath (Saturday) 51 times. . . . Hence the conclusion is inevitable . . . that of those who follow the Bible as their guide, the Israelites and the Seventh-day Adventists, have the exclusive weight of evidence on their side, whilst the biblical Protestant has not a word in self-defense for his substitution of Sunday for Saturday. . . . They have ignored and condemned their teacher, the Bible . . . and they have adopted a day [instituted and] kept by the Catholic Church." Official publication of Cardinal Gibbons and the Papacy in the United States, published in Baltimore, Maryland, September 1893.

We gratefully acknowledge J.F. Coltheart, who personally consulted old manuscripts and the original sources of many of these quotations in the libraries and museums of Europe and also in Constantinople and the East.

Click to expand...

YOU are 100% correct and I as well have said to you that I for one will not take my time to read a copied and pasted log of denominational opinions that are longer than my arm.

You can direct your response to someone else other than me for a response my friend.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

This is key to why tradition wins the hearts and minds of mankind, and doesn't let them go, the very idea of tradition clamps down tight and won't let them believe what does not agree with their theories, even though they are manmade theories and not Godmade theories. By blocking them from seeking to know the truth, by blocking from searching the truth out, the very rules of tradition even when contrary to God's Word, the rules that are not in Scripture, but made to protect from believing Scripture, the rules are made to protect tradition, regardless of the facts, by preventing access to the facts, in the mind and heart at least - since the Scripture, God's Word, can still be read, but doesn't help, as it is read without belief, as is written of Israel when they fell also, when the truth did not benefit them because , not of facts they did not know, but because knowing even hearing Yahweh was not accompanied with faith, but with unbelief.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

mmksparbud said:
"If you would learn how to read anything other than what agrees with your theory."

I for one READ the Bible as it is the Word of God without excuse. A theory is a hypothesis intended to explain observed facts, so the Bible is not a theory.

I do not need to read what Mr. Miller and Mrs. White said the Bible says at all.

Then to understand the Word of God, one must be born again.

Major1 said:

Agreed.

mmksparbud said:
"If you would learn how to read anything other than what agrees with your theory."

I for one READ the Bible as it is the Word of God without excuse. A theory is a hypothesis intended to explain observed facts, so the Bible is not a theory.

I do not need to read what Mr. Miller and Mrs. White said the Bible says at all.

Then to understand the Word of God, one must be born again.

Click to expand...

You are the only one posting her writings. I know you are not interested in the truth of history--but it was you that said there was nothing to prove that anyone after the 2nd century kept Sabbath. So I posted the truth about that lie. The bible is not a theory--your opinions are another matter. But as you said--to understand the word of God one must be born again, and want to know the truth of what God says and not the dictates of the Catholic church and traditions of men.

mmksparbud said:

You are the only one posting her writings. I know you are not interested in the truth of history--but it was you that said there was nothing to prove that anyone after the 2nd century kept Sabbath. So I posted the truth about that lie. The bible is not a theory--your opinions are another matter. But as you said--to understand the word of God one must be born again, and want to know the truth of what God says and not the dictates of the Catholic church and traditions of men.

Click to expand...

I don't blame you for putting distance between her and you. I would too if I were YOU.

NO ONE lied to you about the Sabbath being kept after the 2nd Century. Maybe you just did not understand what was said.

The writings of the early Christians make it clear that Christians abandoned the Jewish custom of worship on the Sabbath (seventh day) and instead held the first day, which they called the Lord's Day, to be the sacred day of worship. One of the simplest explanations on the subject comes from Tertullian, around 200 AD:

But why is it, you ask, that we gather on the Lord's Day to celebrate our solemnities? Because that was the way the Apostles also did.

-- De Fuga in Persecutione, XIV: 11

This was not an innovation of the second century AD, as a full century earlier, (101 AD,) we find Ignatius saying:

Those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's day on which our life was sprung by him and his death.

-- Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter 9

And just in case there is any confusion as to the identity of the Lord's Day, we can turn to Justin Martyr. (140 AD)

And on the day which is called Sunday there is an assembly in the same place of all who live in cities or in country districts; and the records of the apostles, or the writings of the prophets, are read as long as we have time.


Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the day on which God, when he changed the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.

-- Apologies 1:67

And again from Justin Martyr, we see that Christians did not keep the Jewish holy days:

We neither accord with the Jews in their peculiarities in regard to food nor in their sacred days.

-- Apologies Sec. 21

So yes, it's clear from the historical record that the first-century Christians, such as Ignatius, had organized worship meetings on the Lord's Day (Sunday), and that they did not consider observance of the Jewish Sabbath important, it having been fulfilled by Christ with the rest of the Law of Moses.

I do hope this helps your understanding so that you can be more carful when you use the word "liar".

Major1 said:

I don't blame you for putting distance between her and you. I would too if I were YOU.

NO ONE lied to you about the Sabbath being kept after the 2nd Century. Maybe you just did not understand what was said.

The writings of the early Christians make it clear that Christians abandoned the Jewish custom of worship on the Sabbath (seventh day) and instead held the first day, which they called the Lord's Day, to be the sacred day of worship. One of the simplest explanations on the subject comes from Tertullian, around 200 AD:

But why is it, you ask, that we gather on the Lord's Day to celebrate our solemnities? Because that was the way the Apostles also did.

-- De Fuga in Persecutione, XIV: 11

This was not an innovation of the second century AD, as a full century earlier, (101 AD,) we find Ignatius saying:

Those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's day on which our life was sprung by him and his death.

-- Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter 9

And just in case there is any confusion as to the identity of the Lord's Day, we can turn to Justin Martyr. (140 AD)

And on the day which is called Sunday there is an assembly in the same place of all who live in cities or in country districts; and the records of the apostles, or the writings of the prophets, are read as long as we have time.


Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the day on which God, when he changed the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.

-- Apologies 1:67

And again from Justin Martyr, we see that Christians did not keep the Jewish holy days:

We neither accord with the Jews in their peculiarities in regard to food nor in their sacred days.

-- Apologies Sec. 21

So yes, it's clear from the historical record that the first-century Christians, such as Ignatius, had organized worship meetings on the Lord's Day (Sunday), and that they did not consider observance of the Jewish Sabbath important, it having been fulfilled by Christ with the rest of the Law of Moses.

I do hope this helps your understanding so that you can be more carful when you use the word "liar".

Click to expand...

I certainly am not putting distance between me and her. I just try to stick to the bible and actual history to avoid people like you erroneously stating that my believes are based on her writings. Actually, I am grateful you brought her up, it proves my point. The difference between you and me--and you and her for that matter, is that we are not afraid of the bible truth nor of actual history. NON OF THE SOURCES QUOTED WERE WRITTEN BY SDA'S---all 7th day Sabbath keeping denominations know these facts---that is why they are Sabbath keepers. You never did answer the question of how these people, who never heard of EGW or SDA;s, came to their believes. See, they were not afraid of actual truth nor of actual history. I have read the literature put out by the Catholics and all other Sunday keeping faiths. I am not afraid to read articles, often whole books, by other faiths. Truth is never based on fear of being proven wrong. That is vanity. They are those such as these:

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Yes, all Catholics observed Sunday--it is very clear! Thank you for pointing that out!

If you are under the impression that the Catholics keep Sunday because of biblical grounds--you are mistaken. This is from the Catholics themselves--again--not from SDA's.
The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine by: Peter Geiermann, C. SS. R. (published by: B. Herder Book Co. -1946)


3. The Third Commandment:

Q. What is the Third Commandment?

A. The Third Commandment is: Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

Q. Which is the Sabbath Day?

A. Saturday is the Sabbath Day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?

A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.

Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her.

Q. What does the Third Commandment command?

A. The Third Commandment commands us to sanctify Sunday as the Lord’s Day.

Q. What does the Third Commandment forbid?

A. The Third Commandment forbids (1) The omission of prayer and divine worship; (2) All unnecessary servile work; (3) Whatever hinders the keeping of the Lord’s Day holy.

Q. Is the desecration of the Lord’s Day a grievous matter?

A. The desecration of the Lord’s Day is a grievous matter in itself, though it admits of light matter."



“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday.
Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church
.” Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

"Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope."
Our Sunday Visitor
, February 5th, 1950.


. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174
"All of us believe many things in regard to religion that we do not find in the Bible. For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the Church outside the Bible." The Catholic Virginian, "To Tell You The Truth,” Vol. 22, No. 49 (Oct. 3, 1947).

"... you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.

Major1 said:

Agreed.

mmksparbud said:
"If you would learn how to read anything other than what agrees with your theory."

I for one READ the Bible as it is the Word of God without excuse. A theory is a hypothesis intended to explain observed facts, so the Bible is not a theory.

I do not need to read what Mr. Miller and Mrs. White said the Bible says at all.

Then to understand the Word of God, one must be born again.

Click to expand...

mmksparbud said:

You are the only one posting her writings.

Click to expand...

Excellent point! Those who perseverate on Ellen White as their response to every post, every thread, every topic are choosing a failing "solution".

mmksparbud said:

I know you are not interested in the truth of history--but it was you that said there was nothing to prove that anyone after the 2nd century kept Sabbath. So I posted the truth about that lie. The bible is not a theory--your opinions are another matter. But as you said--to understand the word of God one must be born again, and want to know the truth of what God says and not the dictates of the Catholic church and traditions of men.

Click to expand...

What is interesting is that anyone claiming that Christians ceased to keep the Sabbath after the 1st century are basically shooting their own argument against God's Bible Sabbath in the foot according to Acts 20.

But be careful because folks not at all interested in the "details" of a discussion thread are usually still interested in a bend-wrench kind of "spin" on what you post.

Major1 said:

Agreed.

mmksparbud said:
"If you would learn how to read anything other than what agrees with your theory."

I for one READ the Bible as it is the Word of God without excuse. A theory is a hypothesis intended to explain observed facts, so the Bible is not a theory.

I do not need to read what Mr. Miller and Mrs. White said the Bible says at all.

Then to understand the Word of God, one must be born again.

Click to expand...

mmksparbud said:

You are the only one posting her writings.

Click to expand...

Excellent point! Those who perseverate on Ellen White as their response to every post, every thread, every topic are choosing a failing "solution".

I always make my case from the Bible so that those who are massively confused to imagine that the case can only be made by quoting Ellen White - are disabused.

mmksparbud said:

I know you are not interested in the truth of history--but it was you that said there was nothing to prove that anyone after the 2nd century kept Sabbath. So I posted the truth about that lie. The bible is not a theory--your opinions are another matter. But as you said--to understand the word of God one must be born again, and want to know the truth of what God says and not the dictates of the Catholic church and traditions of men.

Click to expand...

What is interesting is that anyone claiming that Christians ceased to keep the Sabbath after the 1st century are basically shooting their own argument against God's Bible Sabbath in the foot according to Acts 20.

But be careful because folks not at all interested in the "details" of a discussion thread are usually still interested in a bend-wrench kind of "spin" on what you post.

Major1 said:

I don't blame you for putting distance between her and you. I would too if I were YOU.
.

Click to expand...

hmmm my efforts to disabuse not always entirely successful.

BobRyan said:

Excellent point! Those who perseverate on Ellen White as their response to every post, every thread, every topic are choosing a failing "solution".



What is interesting is that anyone claiming that Christians ceased to keep the Sabbath after the 1st century are basically shooting their own argument against God's Bible Sabbath in the foot according to Acts 20.

But be careful because folks not at all interested in the "details" of a discussion thread are usually still interested in a bend-wrench kind of "spin" on what you post.

Click to expand...

You said...….
"But be careful because folks not at all interested in the "details" of a discussion thread are usually still interested in a bend-wrench kind of "spin" on what you post. "

I am FOFL!!!!

mmksparbud said:

If you are under the impression that the Catholics keep Sunday because of biblical grounds--you are mistaken. This is from the Catholics themselves--again--not from SDA's.
The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine by: Peter Geiermann, C. SS. R. (published by: B. Herder Book Co. -1946)


3. The Third Commandment:

Q. What is the Third Commandment?

A. The Third Commandment is: Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

Q. Which is the Sabbath Day?

A. Saturday is the Sabbath Day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?

A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.

Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her.

Q. What does the Third Commandment command?

A. The Third Commandment commands us to sanctify Sunday as the Lord’s Day.

Q. What does the Third Commandment forbid?

A. The Third Commandment forbids (1) The omission of prayer and divine worship; (2) All unnecessary servile work; (3) Whatever hinders the keeping of the Lord’s Day holy.

Q. Is the desecration of the Lord’s Day a grievous matter?

A. The desecration of the Lord’s Day is a grievous matter in itself, though it admits of light matter."



“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday.
Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church
.” Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

"Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope."
Our Sunday Visitor
, February 5th, 1950.


. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174
"All of us believe many things in regard to religion that we do not find in the Bible. For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the Church outside the Bible." The Catholic Virginian, "To Tell You The Truth,” Vol. 22, No. 49 (Oct. 3, 1947).

"... you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.

Click to expand...

The strongest support for Sunday worship comes from outside the Bible. We can conclude from the writings of the early Church Fathers beyond reasonable doubt that the apostles universally practiced worship on the first day of the week in the churches.

The real question should be------
Are disciples of Jesus, under the New Covenant, required to keep the requirements of the Mosaic law?

The answer is either yes or no.

Of course, in principle, it is possible that Christians are required to keep parts of the Law of Moses and not required to keep others, but we would need specific passages which indicate which of the Mosaic commands we are required to keep.

The conclusion is that we are no longer under the Law of Moses and are not required to keep these laws. The entire tenor and message of Galatians and Colossians is that Christians are not under the Law of Moses and those who require disciples to obey these laws in order to be saved are themselves condemned!!!!

This is made clear in a number of passages, such as Galatians 1:6-9, Galatians 3:1-5 (Did you receive the spirit by observing the Law?), Galatians 3:19-25 (we are no longer under the supervision of the law) Galatians 5:7-12, Colossians 2:13-23, (having canceled the written code… Do not let anyone judge you with regard to a Sabbath…).

The bottom line is that IF you feel convicted that attending worship services on Saturday is something you have to do, THEN BY ALL MEANS DO IT!!!!!!

But Biblically speaking you can not and should not judge others because they feel the very same way about Sunday worship.

All of this banter back and forth on which day to worship is actually a complete waste of time IMO!

BobRyan said:

Excellent point! Those who perseverate on Ellen White as their response to every post, every thread, every topic are choosing a failing "solution".



What is interesting is that anyone claiming that Christians ceased to keep the Sabbath after the 1st century are basically shooting their own argument against God's Bible Sabbath in the foot according to Acts 20.

But be careful because folks not at all interested in the "details" of a discussion thread are usually still interested in a bend-wrench kind of "spin" on what you post.

Click to expand...

AS I said to your friend, all of this conversation about which day to worship is a waste of time IMO.

IF YOU and he spent as much time witnessing to the lost instead of spending all your time on assorted web sites pushing the teachings of Mr. Miller and Mrs. White, you would certainly be doing more for the cause of Christ than arguing over an non essential to salvation.

Now the truth is real simple. IF YOU want to attend church services on Saturday then DO IT!!!!! I do not care one little bit!!!

But the bottom line is that there is no biblical evidence for the churches meeting on the Sabbath–absolutely none, although there is some evidence from Church History that some churches met on both Saturday and Sunday.

To say that Sunday worship is wrong or un-Biblical is itself just plain wrong.
YOU personally may think that and wish that but it is not Biblically true.

How do I know? Because it is an indisputable fact that the church under the apostles had their principle meeting on Sunday. ANY person who claims that Peter and Paul and James were sinning or broke the commandments of God when they had the church meet on Sunday is being far beyond the realm of truthful.

Is there any historical or biblical evidence that the apostles taught Saturday worship? The answer is simple. No, there is not.

So again I say to you with no disrespect that all of this banter is for NOTHING!

Major1 said:

The strongest support for Sunday worship comes from outside the Bible. We can conclude from the writings of the early Church Fathers beyond reasonable doubt that the apostles universally practiced worship on the first day of the week in the churches.

The real question should be------
Are disciples of Jesus, under the New Covenant, required to keep the requirements of the Mosaic law?

The answer is either yes or no.

Of course, in principle, it is possible that Christians are required to keep parts of the Law of Moses and not required to keep others, but we would need specific passages which indicate which of the Mosaic commands we are required to keep.

The conclusion is that we are no longer under the Law of Moses and are not required to keep these laws. The entire tenor and message of Galatians and Colossians is that Christians are not under the Law of Moses and those who require disciples to obey these laws in order to be saved are themselves condemned!!!!

This is made clear in a number of passages, such as Galatians 1:6-9, Galatians 3:1-5 (Did you receive the spirit by observing the Law?), Galatians 3:19-25 (we are no longer under the supervision of the law) Galatians 5:7-12, Colossians 2:13-23, (having canceled the written code… Do not let anyone judge you with regard to a Sabbath…).

The bottom line is that IF you feel convicted that attending worship services on Saturday is something you have to do, THEN BY ALL MEANS DO IT!!!!!!

But Biblically speaking you can not and should not judge others because they feel the very same way about Sunday worship.

All of this banter back and forth on which day to worship is actually a complete waste of time IMO!

Click to expand...

Nobody was saying that anyone has to do anything. You are free to worship whenever you want. No one will ever have to answer to any SDA about their faith--we will all answer to only one--Jesus--our High Priest. If you do not wish to "banter"--then do not answer and do not ask questions--esp. do not ask questions to which you are not wanting to find out the answer to!!

God only wrote one law with His own hand on stone and placed those laws in the Ark, which represents His throne. He dictated the ceremonial laws involving priestly sacrifices to Moses who wrote them down and they were placed outside the ark.
It is obvious that the ceremonies involving animal sacrifices were done away with at the cross as Jesus was the fulfillment of those--hence they are done away with at the cross. He is our Lamb and our High Priest. Very simple.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Jesus was quoting Deut.

Deu_4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Deu_6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deu_10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Jesus didn't say there were only 2 commandments---He said on these 2 HANG ALL. The first 4 pertain to our duty to God, the last 6 our duty to man.

mmksparbud said:

I certainly am not putting distance between me and her. I just try to stick to the bible and actual history to avoid people like you erroneously stating that my believes are based on her writings. Actually, I am grateful you brought her up, it proves my point. The difference between you and me--and you and her for that matter, is that we are not afraid of the bible truth nor of actual history. NON OF THE SOURCES QUOTED WERE WRITTEN BY SDA'S---all 7th day Sabbath keeping denominations know these facts---that is why they are Sabbath keepers. You never did answer the question of how these people, who never heard of EGW or SDA;s, came to their believes. See, they were not afraid of actual truth nor of actual history. I have read the literature put out by the Catholics and all other Sunday keeping faiths. I am not afraid to read articles, often whole books, by other faiths. Truth is never based on fear of being proven wrong. That is vanity. They are those such as these:

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Yes, all Catholics observed Sunday--it is very clear! Thank you for pointing that out!

Click to expand...

You said,
"You never did answer the question of how these people, who never heard of EGW or SDA;s, came to their believes. See, they were not afraid of actual truth nor of actual history."

INCORRECT, Again. I answered your question. You just did not like the answer.

Real history says that Adventist meetings and devotees of William Miller, was convinced that Christ would return on October 22, 1844. When Christ did not return, a non-event that would become known as The Great Disappointment, most people abandoned Adventism.

But in the resulting confusion, Ellen White claimed to have received visions that were soon accepted as God-given revelation by the church. The small Adventist movement that remained was split by many rifts and much infighting, but Ellen was believed to have a gift that could reunite and guide the movement. Her dreams and visions continued and she quickly became a leader among them.

Shortly after James and Ellen married, they studied a tract written by Joseph Bates titled Seventh-day Sabbath and became convinced that they were to keep Saturday as the sabbath. Six months later, Ellen had a vision in which she saw the law of God with a halo of light surrounding the fourth commandment. She and her husband took this as proof that their newfound understanding was correct. They elevated this to a doctrine of first importance.
The False Teachers: Ellen G. White - Tim Challies

Major1 said:

You said,
"You never did answer the question of how these people, who never heard of EGW or SDA;s, came to their believes. See, they were not afraid of actual truth nor of actual history."

INCORRECT, Again. I answered your question. You just did not like the answer.

Real history says that Adventist meetings and devotees of William Miller, was convinced that Christ would return on October 22, 1844. When Christ did not return, a non-event that would become known as The Great Disappointment, most people abandoned Adventism.

But in the resulting confusion, Ellen White claimed to have received visions that were soon accepted as God-given revelation by the church. The small Adventist movement that remained was split by many rifts and much infighting, but Ellen was believed to have a gift that could reunite and guide the movement. Her dreams and visions continued and she quickly became a leader among them.

Shortly after James and Ellen married, they studied a tract written by Joseph Bates titled Seventh-day Sabbath and became convinced that they were to keep Saturday as the sabbath. Six months later, Ellen had a vision in which she saw the law of God with a halo of light surrounding the fourth commandment. She and her husband took this as proof that their newfound understanding was correct. They elevated this to a doctrine of first importance.
The False Teachers: Ellen G. White - Tim Challies

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How could the disciples and those before and after the 2nd century have heard it from EGW when she wasn't even born yet? You were shown the many historical writings about the early churches including the early church of Ireland (non of them written by any SDA--there were none then) that met on Saturday but you refuse to read them or acknowledge the reality of history to spout you own version of it. Again, thank you for quoting EGW, but you are the only one doing so.

mmksparbud said:

How could the disciples and those before and after the 2nd century have heard it from EGW

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Agreed. "Real life" is a difficult concept for some Points of View these days.