A Challenge to Christian Zionists

Dave L said:

To whom does God reattach the believers? To the rest of the unbelievers or to Christ?

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To whom ?? They're grafted back into what the church originally was, and everything that is of God, his Son, the holy spirit. By the way, he attaches the gentiles, but he reattaches the Jews who come to him - "23 And geven they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree."
Romans 11:11–24

Nige55 said:

Ever read Kings ?

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Yes indeed!

The story of Elijah, Ahab and Jezebel is one of my favorite stories of the OT ......

Did you notice "Jezebel" is mentioned 1 time in the NT?

Rev 2:20
'But I have against thee a few things:
That thou dost suffer the woman/wife Jezebel, who is calling herself a prophetess, to teach, and to lead astray, my servants to commit whoredom, and idol-sacrifices to eat;

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Thyatira and Jezebel

“And to the Messenger of the Assembly in Thyatira write!…” (Rev. 2:18).
“These things saith the Son of God, who hath His eyes like unto a flame of fire, and His feet are like fine brass; .............

The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches,.............

As we study the message to the church in Thyatira we see that the primary emphasis is upon the Jezebel spirit in that church
and the “great tribulation” into which the Lord will cast her in order to judge, break, and purify her.

Thyatira means “sweet perfume of sacrifice” and when you study this word it speaks of a perfume that sends forth its fragrance as the result of bruising, crushing, or breaking........

Most of the ingredients in the holy anointing oil with which the priesthood of Israel was anointed were made fragrant through the process of bruising and crushing. Once the spices were gathered, only as they were pierced and crushed did their fragrance go forth. It is not easy to yield to the crushing and bruising! ..........

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1Ki 19:1
And Ahab declareth to Jezebel all that Elijah did, and all how he slew all the prophets by the sword,
1Ki 21:15
And it cometh to pass, at Jezebel's hearing that Naboth hath been stoned, and is dead, that Jezebel saith unto Ahab, 'Rise, possess the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite, that he refused to give to thee for money, for Naboth is not alive but dead.'
1Ki 21:25
surely there hath none been like Ahab, who sold himself to do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah, whom Jezebel his wife hath moved,
2Ki 9:7
and thou hast smitten the house of Ahab thy lord, and I have required the blood of My servants the prophets, and the blood of all the servants of Jehovah, from the hand of Jezebel;
2Ki 9:30
When Jezebel, the queen mother, heard that Jehu had come to Jezreel, she painted her eyelids and fixed her hair and sat at a window.

Rev 18:
7 'As much as she did glorify herself and did revel, so much torment and sorrow give to her,
because in her heart she saith, 'I sit a queen, and a widow I am not, and sorrow I shall not see;'
24 and in her blood of prophets and of saints was found, and of all those who have been slain upon the land.'



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Nige55 said:

Always such contorted reasoning this, - I have a small degree of Swedish DNA. I'm not Swedish. Trying to make out that everyone on earth is Jewish due to some tiny amount of shared DNA is such an odd perspective

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Is physical DNA a criterion that God uses to identify His Chosen People?

Or is it spiritual DNA (faith and obedience)?

jgr said:

Is physical DNA a criterion that God uses to identify His Chosen People?

Or is it spiritual DNA (faith and obedience)?

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It's already written in scripture who he chose to be his chosen people. If you're asking was it faith and obedience, - no it wasn't. They had many times of wandering faith and lack of obedience, and yet they were the people he chose.

Nige55 said:

It's already written in scripture who he chose to be his chosen people. If you're asking was it faith and obedience, - no it wasn't. They had many times of wandering faith and lack of obedience, and yet they were the people he chose.

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Yes, those that Jesus chose, John 15:14-19, 1 Peter 2:9-10, are His followers and keep His Commandments. Those people who call themselves Jews today are not Jesus followers, with the exception of about .05% Messianic Jews, the remnant who will be saved. Romans 9:27

We have a nation in the holy Land now, who call themselves Jewish and their nation Israel. That for a start is wrong, their nation is Judah, as David ben Gurion originally intended to call it, but changed at the last moment. The House of Judah separated from the House of Israel soon after Solomon’s death.

This wrongful naming was undoubtedly a Satanically inspired deception, that has been very successful in fooling the world into thinking they are all of ancient Israel, today. The whole notion of a Jewish redemption, is part of the 'rapture to heaven' false theory. The Jews stay on earth, under Tribulation, while the Church sits in heaven. A totally unbiblical and false belief that will never happen.

Those citizens of the State of Israel have no proof of their ancestry; all the genealogy records were burned in 70 AD. Jesus said there are some Jews who say they are Jews, but are not.... Revelation 2:9 and 3:9. When the historical record of their descent is scrutinized, it can be seen that very few of those who purport to be Jewish today are really descended from Judah.

So the business of trying to extol a whole group of modern people, as special to God, is wrong. Especially as they don't acknowledge or rely on God as their Protector, the IDF and their nukes are their Sampson Option. Many prophesies tell us that God intends to Judge and punish them; to smash them like clay pots, Jeremiah 19:1-15, to burn the righteous and wicked alike; Ezekiel 21:1-7 and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27.

Nige55 said:

It's already written in scripture who he chose to be his chosen people. If you're asking was it faith and obedience, - no it wasn't. They had many times of wandering faith and lack of obedience, and yet they were the people he chose.

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Could it also be possible that Yahweh raised up the Hebrew Israelites [and later the Judean/Jewish NT High Priests/Pharisees]to show His power thru them, specifically, the fulfillment of the destruction of 70ad OC Jerusalem/Temple/Priesthood?

Notice how Pharaoh is shown being raised up to show His power thru him and to the Hebrews:

Exodus 9:16
And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
Exodus 10:1-2
And Yahweh said unto Moses, "Go! in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: …"

Paul quotes that passage here:

Romans 9:17
for the Writing saith to Pharaoh<5328> -- 'For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;'

The Pharisees are never mentioned in the OT, but when I decided to see the meaning of the greek word for "pharisee", I was pretty astonished.

Exodus 7:11
And Pharaoh however is calling to wise-men and to ones making enchantments/03784 kashaph and they are doing even they sacred scribes of Egypt in occultisms of them so.

The greek word a form of the word #5330 used for Pharaoh is also used for Pharisee

Romans 9:17
for the Writing saith to Pharaoh<Pharao<5328> --.............

Matthew 12:14
And the Pharisees<Pharisaios<5330> having gone forth, held a consultation against him, how they might destroy Him

Revelation 9:21
And not they reform out of the murders of them, nor out from their sorceries/ pharmakeia <5331> ,...........

5330. Pharisaios of Hebrew origin
(c a separatist, i.e. exclusively religious; a Pharisean, i.e. Jewish sectary:--Pharisee.
5331. pharmakeia far-mak-i'-ah from 5332;
medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):--sorcery, witchcraft.
5328. Pharao far-ah-o' of foreign origin (6547);
Pharao (i.e. Pharoh), an Egyptian king:--Pharaoh.
2447. ios ee-os' perhaps from eimi (to go) or hiemi (to send);
rust (as if emitted by metals); also venom (as emitted by serpents):--poison, rust. AV - poison 2, rust 1; 3

Mat 23:33
'Serpents! brood of vipers!
how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Best viewed full screen.............great special affects.....

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Nige55 said:

To whom ?? They're grafted back into what the church originally was, and everything that is of God, his Son, the holy spirit. By the way, he attaches the gentiles, but he reattaches the Jews who come to him - "23 And geven they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree."
Romans 11:11–24

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But the unbelievers are not biblical Israel. We are if you believe in Christ.

Nige55 said:

It's already written in scripture who he chose to be his chosen people. If you're asking was it faith and obedience, - no it wasn't. They had many times of wandering faith and lack of obedience, and yet they were the people he chose.

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Israel was always comprised of two groups of people -- the faithful and obedient, and the unfaithful and disobedient.

The latter invariably ended up prematurely dead. (Hebrews 10:28)

Which group was God's Chosen People?

Dave L said:

Scripture does not directly support any Dispensationalist claims making it false prophecy. The false claims include a 7 year tribulation (no scripture). A Pre-Trib Rapture (no scripture). A restored Roman Empire (no scripture). The promises belong to the broken off unbelievers apart from Christ (no scripture). A return to animal sacrifices in a rebuilt temple (no scripture). A physical kingdom called the millennium (no scripture) and more.

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Dispensationalists do not teach that "the promises belong to the broken off unbelievers apart frrom Christ." And they think they see a pre-trib rapture in scripture.

As to all the rest, there are indeed explicitly stated scriptures for each of them.

Biblewriter said:

Dispensationalists do not teach that "the promises belong to the broken off unbelievers apart frrom Christ." And they think they see a pre-trib rapture in scripture.

As to all the rest, there are indeed explicitly stated scriptures for each of them.

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Dispensationalism does not have direct quotes for most of its end time claims. Plenty of reverse engineering of already fulfilled prophecies, but nothing direct to back their claims = false prophecy.

Dave L said:

Dispensationalism does not have direct quotes for most of its end time claims. Plenty of reverse engineering of already fulfilled prophecies, but nothing direct to back their claims = false prophecy.

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This is simply, absolutely, and completely, false.

Biblewriter said:

This is simply, absolutely, and completely, false.

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Put up direct quotes for a 7 tribulation, or a pre-trib rapture, for starters.

jgr said:

Israel was always comprised of two groups of people -- the faithful and obedient, and the unfaithful and disobedient.

The latter invariably ended up prematurely dead. (Hebrews 10:28)

Which group was God's Chosen People?

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God did not make the division at the time (you're adding to scripture if you claim he did), they were still his people throughout Kings when they repeatedly turned away (as a nation) and came back to him.
Amos 3:1-2 deals very clearly with all of the posts above - ""You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."
I.E. - They can still be his chosen people, whilst being punished !
Let's also be careful that in lamenting Israel with disobedience and unfaithfulness, - WE fall into those traps on a regular basis. Whenever we succumb to temptation, sin, sinful thoughts or actions, - we too are being disobedient. So let's be careful not to cast the first stone.

Dave L said:

But the unbelievers are not biblical Israel. We are if you believe in Christ.

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If you want to omit every single biblical reference to the actual land of Israel, and returning to the land. The two are absolutely intertwined.
"For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land"
Ezekiel 36:24-28
This is exactly what has, and is happening.

keras said:

Yes, those that Jesus chose, John 15:14-19, 1 Peter 2:9-10, are His followers and keep His Commandments.

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What, like the sabbath ? ;-) Just kidding.
You're started on the wrong foot, - who God chose to be his own possession
(Psalm 135:4) when he formed the nations is pertinent when discussing God's chosen people.
Jesus declaring those who will follow him (his then current, and future disciples) is an entirely different thread.

Nige55 said:

If you want to omit every single biblical reference to the actual land of Israel, and returning to the land. The two are absolutely intertwined.
"For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land"
Ezekiel 36:24-28
This is exactly what has, and is happening.

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If you consider Jesus over Darby, the restoration of Israel takes place in the resurrection of believers (biblical Israel) on the last day. And becomes completely fulfilled in the New Heavens and Earth. And keep in mind, all God's promises are Yes in Jesus. Not yes to those he removed from Israel.

Dave L said:

Put up direct quotes for a 7 tribulation, or a pre-trib rapture, for starters.

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I am not going to argue with you. For in the past, you have already simply refused to admit it when I have posted scriptures which explicitly stated exactly what you deny that the scriptures teach.

But in answer to your question, the seven years is indeed directly stated as "week," although that period is not called "the tribulation." And both the very oldest surviving Christian commentary (of any significant length) and the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on scripture (as opposed to a commentary on a scriptural subject) (again both) clearly taught that this week remained to be fulfilled in the future. So forget the common claim that this is some kind of a recent "invention."

And the timing of the rapture is not stated in any scripture, anywhere in the Bible. So all positions on its timing are based on interpretation. I have already stated this, and clearly stated it, repeatedly. And am not going to debate it with you, other than to point out that your position on its timing is just as much interpretation as is mine.

Biblewriter said:

I am not going to argue with you. For in the past, you have already simply refused to admit it when I have posted scriptures which explicitly stated exactly what you deny that the scriptures teach.

But in answer to your question, the seven years is indeed directly stated as "week," although that period is not called "the tribulation." And both the very oldest surviving Christian commentary (of any significant length) and the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on scripture (as opposed to a commentary on a scriptural subject) (again both) clearly taught that this week remained to be fulfilled in the future. So forget the common claim that this is some kind of a recent "invention."

And the timing of the rapture is not stated in any scripture, anywhere in the Bible. So all positions on its timing are based on interpretation. I have already stated this, and clearly stated it, repeatedly. And am not going to debate it with you, other than to point out that your position on its timing is just as much interpretation as is mine.

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I understand the key figures in Dispensationalism cannot produce direct quotes for their false prophecies either.