The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

FineLinen said:

Sin vs Grace

"Sin disturbed relations with God in everything and everyone, but the extent of the disturbance was not clear until God spelled it out in detail to Moses. So death, this huge abyss separating us from God, dominated the landscape from Adam to Moses. Even those who didn't sin precisely as Adam did by disobeying a specific command of God still had to experience this termination of life, this separation from God. But Adam, who got us into this, also points ahead to the One who will get us out of it.

Yet the rescuing gift is not exactly parallel to the death-dealing sin.

If one man's sin put crowds of people at the dead-end abyss of separation from God, just think what God's gift poured through one man, Jesus Christ, will do!

There's no comparison between that death-dealing sin and this generous, life-giving gift.

The verdict on that one sin was the death sentence; the verdict on the many sins that followed was this wonderful life sentence. If death got the upper hand through one man's wrongdoing, can you imagine the breathtaking recovery life makes, sovereign life, in those who grasp with both hands this wildly extravagant life-gift, this grand setting-everything-right, that the one man Jesus Christ provides?

Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death, another person did it right and got us out of it. But more than just getting us out of trouble, he got us into life!

One man said no to God and put many people in the wrong; one man said yes to God and put many in the right.

All that passing laws against sin did was produce more lawbreakers. But sin didn't, and doesn't, have a chance in competition with the aggressive forgiveness we call grace. When it's sin versus grace, grace wins hands down.

All sin can do is threaten us with death, and that's the end of it. Grace, because God is putting everything together again through the Messiah, invites us into life - a life that goes on and on and on, world without end." -The Message-

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Except for one thing you forgot!
Matthew 12:31　 For this reason I say unto you, Every sin and injurious speaking shall be forgiven to men, but speaking injuriously of the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.　

Mat 12:32　 And whosoever shall have spoken a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming one .　

he-man said:

Except for one thing you forgot!
Matthew 12:31　 For this reason I say unto you, Every sin and injurious speaking shall be forgiven to men, but speaking injuriously of the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.　

Mat 12:32　 And whosoever shall have spoken a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming one .　

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he-man said:

Matthew 12:31, And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

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What is the consequence that will not be pardoned (or “let off”, Lk.12:10) for blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Luke 12:10 doesn't say. Could it be death, whether in “this age or in the age to come” (Mt.12:32), e.g. the millennium? Perhaps an imminent or immediate death, and or divinely sanctioned capital punishment. A death that ends their opportunity for salvation by grace in their mortal life & ships them off to corrective punishment, such as in a place the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) went to? For as long as it takes. Consider the following passages of Scripture where death is the penalty for blasphemy that the blasphemers were not pardoned from:

27 Also if one person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one year old female goat for a sin offering. 28 The priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven. 29 You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the sons of Israel and for the alien who sojourns among them. 30 But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people. 31‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.’” (Numbers 15:27-31)

Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death. (Leviticus 24:16)

28 A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29)

Compare also these Scripture passages referring to death as the penalty that was not pardoned:

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spirit…why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost… Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost (Acts 5:3-6, 9-10).

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. (1 John 5:16)

But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, “Surely this iniquity shall not be pardoned you Until you die,” says the Lord GOD of hosts. (Isaiah 22:14)

20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isaiah 65:20)

Luke says it won’t be forgiven.

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The Greek word for "forgiven" has a number of different meanings. It is used of Satan in regards to Jesus in Matthew 4:11. If you translate it as "forgive" there then you get a reading of "the devil did FORGIVE Him".

Here are various meanings given for the Greek word, APHIEMI (Strongs #863):

"Usage: (a) I send away, (b) I let go, release, permit to depart, (c) I remit, forgive, (d) I permit, suffer." Strong's Greek: 863. ἀφίημι (aphiémi) -- to send away, leave alone, permit

Remit: "to cancel or refrain from inflicting // remit the penalty"
Definition of REMIT
Remit: "cancel or refrain from exacting or inflicting (a debt or punishment)."
"An example of remit is to pardon someone..."

So according to Luke 12:10 there is one sin for which a person won't be "let go" or "released" or "remitted", "pardoned", etc.. What he will not be "let go" of, or not "released" from, or not "remitted" or "pardoned" of, is not stated in Lk.12:10.

Therefore to conclude that such a sin will result in never ending punishment & the person can never be saved is to read something into the verse which is not stated. Consequently Lk.12:10 fails as a "proof text" against Biblical universalism. It's just that simple.

Mark says it won’t be forgiven in this world or the next.

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Perhaps you meant Matthew. But Matthew 12:31-32 does not use the Greek word for "world", which is KOSMOS, but a form of the Greek word AION, meaning "age" or eon".
Those who commit the sin of Spirit blasphemy won't be "let off" or "released" or "remitted" from the due penalty or consequence for that sin. That consequence is what I detailed in my previous post to you, namely a "death" that sends people to "hell" until they are saved. That penalty or consequence for Spirit blasphemy will not only apply in this "age" but also in the millennial age to come:

Isa.65:20 Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a
mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

So death from this world obviously doesn’t pay for this sin if it is not forgiven in the next world.

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Lk.12:10 & Mt.12:31-32 say nothing about anyone "pay[ing] for this sin". The verse isn't talking about being "forgiven" for this sin, but of a person who commits the sin not being "let go" or "released", which implies some consequences or penalty. What those consequences are, or what that penalty is, is not stated.

As my previous post showed, certain blasphemers in the Scriptures suffered death, either by stoning, or by other means. Whether or not they could ever be "forgiven" by God is not stated. But they were not to be "pardoned" or "let go" or "released" from the consequences or penalty which was required, e.g. being stoned to death.

We shouldn't ignore the Biblical context & references to blasphemy & the consequence of death when interpreting Jesus' words in Lk.12:10. He was speaking to Jews whose Scriptures were the Old Testament.

"When Jesus speaks of pardoning or forgiving a sin, he has in mind something utterly different from an attitude of forgiveness, which in God never ceases; he has in mind instead a release from some obligation, or a canceling of some debt, or a setting aside of some prescribed punishment. It is very close to our idea of forgiving a debt or pardoning a criminal. If a debt is unforgiven, then it must be paid; and once it is paid, it no longer exists. Similarly, if a criminal is unpardoned, then the criminal must serve his or her sentence; and once the sentence is served, there is no longer any need for a pardon. An unforgivable or unpardonable sin, therefore, need not be an uncorrectable sin at all; it is simply one that God cannot deal with adequately in the absence of an appropriate punishment."

"...when Jesus speaks of forgiveness in the present context, he has in mind, as we noted above, the canceling of some obligation, debt, or prescribed punishment."

Tom Talbott

Just what does it mean to say that God will never forgive or pardon a given sin

ClementofA said:

What is the consequence that will not be pardoned (or “let off”, Lk.12:10) for blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Luke 12:10 doesn't say. Could it be death, whether in “this age or in the age to come” (Mt.12:32), e.g. the millennium? Perhaps an imminent or immediate death, and or divinely sanctioned capital punishment. A death that ends their opportunity for salvation by grace in their mortal life & ships them off to corrective punishment, such as in a place the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) went to? For as long as it takes. Consider the following passages of Scripture where death is the penalty for blasphemy that the blasphemers were not pardoned from:

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Psalms 119:175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.

Isaiah 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Isaiah 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

"and their blossom shall go up as dust; before the wind; either their children, or whatever was excellent or valuable with them; so Jarchi interprets it of their grandeur, pomp, and glory; it seems to express an utter destruction of them, root and branch, [GILL] as in Mal 4:1"

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble:


Mark 3:29　 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Acts of the Apostles 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

1 Timothy 1:20　 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto the adversary, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Mat 12:31　 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.　

Mat 12:32　 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the age to come.　

FineLinen said:

Dear St. Paul: Please be advised he-boy posts you forgot something. How can an individual of your stature forget anything relating to Abba?

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Psa 94:12　 Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;　

Psa 94:13　 That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.　

Psa 94:14　 For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.　

Both "People" and "fallen Angels" are cast into The Same "Lake Of Fire" in these passages:


And the devil that deceived them was cast into The Lake Of Fire And Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, And Shall Be Tormented Day And Night For Ever And Ever.

• Revelation 20:10




And whosoever was not found written in the book of life Was Cast Into The Lake Of Fire.
• Revelation 20:15




Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If Anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He Shall Be Tormented With Fire And Brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

• Revelation 14:9-11

FineLinen said:

Dear Jude: I have a couple of questions for you.

1. What is theion?

2. What is the root of theion?

3. Is the Source of ta panta, the Goal of ta panta?

"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, in Him the all ends.."

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The same "Lake Of Fire" is both for "People" who are not found in the book of life And "the Devil, the false prophet and the beast."

They all go to The Same "Lake Of Fire".



Just read the text straight forwardly for what it says plainly.

FineLinen said:

John R Gavazzoni

Editors Note:

(The following was written by John R Gavazzoni as one of several explanations by members of a Christian internet forum sent to a brother in Christ who had asked if anyone could help him understand the meaning of the lake of fire and brimstone.)

Hi Doug, Please consider the following very general attempt to answer your question. I believe the association of fire with purification in both old and new testaments is easily traceable. I won't list proof texts, but they do abound, and probably others will take the time to present those in detail. In the old testament the prophetic analogy of silver being purified by fire is classically representative of the purification theme of the Bible.

I would say that, typically true of him, Paul, gets to the heart of the matter when he writes about every man's work being tried by fire, yet the man, himself, being saved. John, whose theology parallels Paul's more explicit style, with a more implicit style of his own, makes it a point to call the lake in question not only the lake of fire, but also of brimstone, which is an old word for sulfur. With sulfur being a common agent of ceremonial purification in temples of worship in ancient times, I think the association is obvious in the Book of Revelation.

Now, to specifically address the possibility that John means to convey destruction rather than purification, let me say that neither scripture nor science recognizes the destruction of anything in the sense of annihilation, that is, of anything being reduced to a state of absolute nothingness. Destruction does not render anything nonexistent, but rather incapable of carrying out its function, as in the destruction of a tank in warfare. The mass of metal is still there, but it can't function as a tank any longer.

Even if you were to vaporize the tank completely, yet, it's intrinsic elements would still exist in other forms. Contrary to conventional theology, all things were not created from nothing, and none of the things that have been created will ever face nonexistence, and by that I mean nonexistence in any form. All created things are subject to change, change in form, but not subject to losing their intrinsic existence.

So, what we have in the process of purification by fire is, first, a separation of the object of purification from all that defiles it, all that is foreign to it's intrinsic constitution, and then the removal of the corrupting element(s). But, as all analogies and parables fall short, in some way, of fully representing the truth they are meant to convey, so is the case here. (I think Bible teachers speak of parables not walking on all fours).

In the case of death and Hades being cast into the lake of fire and a separating of these foreign elements of corruption from the persons who are subjected to the divine flame, it is clear that the persons are saved; they are delivered from the corruption to which they were subjected, but other scripture indicates that death, that last (ultimate) enemy is not merely discarded, but is swallowed up in victory.

I think the Holy Spirit very specifically inspired Paul to write of swallowing up and not mere discarding and certainly not annihilation. When something is swallowed it undergoes a quite remarkable process whereby it becomes, physically speaking, part and parcel of the swallower himself. It is transformed into blood, bone and tissue and has become integral to the person's body. The Book of Hebrews uses the analogy of shaking. Everything that can be shaken will be removed by that shaking, but what then?

This brings us to the depth and extent of reconciliation in the economy of God. Certainly, God has reconciled the alienated person to Himself in Christ, that is undeniable in the scripture, but beyond that, God does not defeat death and the place/Hades [the capacity and potential] of death, by merely removing them. He takes alienation, enmity and hostility themselves and reconstitutes them back into the grace out of which they first proceeded. In a word, God defeats his enemies by transforming them into friends.

At the heart of the message of the Book of Revelation is majestic statement of Him who sits upon the throne, "Behold, I make ALL THINGS new." God loses nothing. The loss of anything does not compute when it comes to God. He created good and evil, the prophet said, and in the end, all things return to God that "He might be all in all."

What a God,

John R. Gavazzoni

A further reading on the subject can be found at the following site.The Lake of Fire - J. Preston Eby
Also for further reading on the subject please click here.The Other Side of the Lake of Fire

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Just read the Scripture Bible text straight forwardly for what it says plainly.

FineLinen said:

Dear Jude: That will simply not do my friend. Jesus Christ spoke "plainly" and His disciples said "how can these things be?"

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The Straightforward Plain Reading Of The Text is good enough for me.

FineLinen said:

John R Gavazzoni
Editors NoteThe following was written by John R Gavazzoni as one of several explanations by members of a Christian internet forum sent to a brother in Christ who had asked if anyone could help him understand the meaning of the lake of fire and brimstone.)Hi Doug, Please consider the following very general attempt to answer your question. I believe the association of fire with purification in both old and new testaments is easily traceable. I won't list proof texts, but they do abound, and probably others will take the time to present those in detail. In the old testament the prophetic analogy of silver being purified by fire is classically representative of the purification theme of the Bible.
I would say that, typically true of him, Paul, gets to the heart of the matter when he writes about every man's work being tried by fire, yet the man, himself, being saved. John, whose theology parallels Paul's more explicit style, with a more implicit style of his own, makes it a point to call the lake in question not only the lake of fire, but also of brimstone, which is an old word for sulfur. With sulfur being a common agent of ceremonial purification in temples of worship in ancient times, I think the association is obvious in the Book of Revelation.
Now, to specifically address the possibility that John means to convey destruction rather than purification, let me say that neither scripture nor science recognizes the destruction of anything in the sense of annihilation, that is, of anything being reduced to a state of absolute nothingness. Destruction does not render anything nonexistent, but rather incapable of carrying out its function, as in the destruction of a tank in warfare. The mass of metal is still there, but it can't function as a tank any longer.

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Huh?
Genesis 3:19　 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Isaiah 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Deuteronomy 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

Psalms 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalms 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Isaiah 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour [swallow up] the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Hebrews 6:8　 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

But those who trust in the Lord will find eternal rest!
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.