Is God Unjust to Save Some?

BNR32FAN · Jan 9, 2019

grasping the after wind said:
Well that is kind of what I was asking . I wasn't trying to insinuate you were making up a definition if that is how you saw my question I am sorry for the clumsy way I put it. Is that definition that you copired and pasted from your phone the one you would find most apt? If so then we will slightly disagree on the inclusion of "and fair" in the definition. My quarrel with the inclusion is more in terms of the meaning of the word "fair" than anything else, as in modern usage that word means something altogether different than it would have years ago when I would have found the definition of just you provided to be much more apt. When fair meant something more like equitable than equally distributed, I would have been more likely to accept it as being something included in the idea of being just. Still I will stick to my idea that just means giving others what they deserve and fair means giving others equal treatment regardless of what they deserve. We can agree to disagree on that but there is no sense in us spending our time telling each other how right we are and how wrong the other one is about the definition of just.

No offense taken friend. I’m also am often too quick with my replies and sometimes forget that a person’s demeanor can often be misinterpreted in text. Sometimes I forget to add things like brother or friend to convey the manner in which I’m addressing someone. I understand your point but to me it contradicts John 3:16 that a loving God who loves the world would not give everyone a chance to be saved. According to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 God wants everyone to repent and be saved and to come to the fullness of truth furthermore He wants no one to perish. It is my understanding that according to Calvinism no one can turn to God unless they are chosen by God. So how does this idea not render God as being responsible for the ungodly?

BNR32FAN · Jan 9, 2019

Tree of Life said:
It may make sense to you, but it does not make sense to me and many others. I deny that it is common sense. And since you cannot support it with Scripture I don't see why I should take it as anything more than your opinion.

Before we go to the scriptures I’d like to say I don’t see why you can’t simply address what I stated. Let’s just make it simple with one question, according to Calvinism can someone become a believer if they are not chosen by God?

Tree of Life · Jan 9, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Before we go to the scriptures I’d like to say I don’t see why you can’t simply address what I stated. Let’s just make it simple with one question, according to Calvinism can someone become a believer if they are not chosen by God?

No they cannot. Not in a saving sense, anyway. Scripture talks about several different kinds of belief (consider the parable of the soils for example). But no one can come to saving faith unless they are chosen and enabled by God.

BNR32FAN · Jan 9, 2019

Hammster said:
The assumption here is that all are His children. Scripture doesn’t support that.

“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Right

G1849

Lemma:

ἐξουσία

Transliteration:

exousía

Pronounce:

ex-oo-see'-ah

Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine

Language:

greek

Description:

1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases a) leave or permission

2) physical and mental power a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises

3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)

4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed) a) universally

1) authority over mankind b) specifically

1) the power of judicial decisions

2) of authority to manage domestic affairs c) metonymically

1) a thing subject to authority or rule a) jurisdiction

2) one who possesses authority a) a ruler, a human magistrate b) the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates d) a sign of the husband's authority over his wife

1) the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself e) the sign of regal authority, a crown

Grammar:

from ἔξεστι (in the sense of ability); privilege, i.e. (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely, magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence:--authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

BNR32FAN · Jan 9, 2019

Tree of Life said:
No they cannot. Not in a saving sense, anyway. Scripture talks about several different kinds of belief (consider the parable of the soils for example). But no one can come to saving faith unless they are chosen and enabled by God.

Which gospel is that quote in I’m having trouble finding it.

BNR32FAN · Jan 9, 2019

Hammster said:
Who are you responding to?

It was directed to tree of life

BNR32FAN · Jan 9, 2019

Tree of Life said:
No they cannot. Not in a saving sense, anyway. Scripture talks about several different kinds of belief (consider the parable of the soils for example). But no one can come to saving faith unless they are chosen and enabled by God.

What are your thoughts on post#64?

Hammster · Jan 9, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Right

G1849

Lemma:

ἐξουσία

Transliteration:

exousía

Pronounce:

ex-oo-see'-ah

Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine

Language:

greek

Description:

1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases a) leave or permission

2) physical and mental power a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises

3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)

4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed) a) universally

1) authority over mankind b) specifically

1) the power of judicial decisions

2) of authority to manage domestic affairs c) metonymically

1) a thing subject to authority or rule a) jurisdiction

2) one who possesses authority a) a ruler, a human magistrate b) the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates d) a sign of the husband's authority over his wife

1) the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself e) the sign of regal authority, a crown

Grammar:

from ἔξεστι (in the sense of ability); privilege, i.e. (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely, magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence:--authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

It’s funny how synergists like v 12, but seem to omit v 13 in these discussions.

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:13

BNR32FAN · Jan 9, 2019

Hammster said:
It’s funny how synergists like v 12, but seem to omit v 13 in these discussions.

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:13

I have no problem with verse 13. They are not born of desires of the flesh nor desires of man but are born of God. The phrase “not by the will/desire of man” means they’re not born of the desires of other men. They’re born of God by their own desire. The desires of man is referring to others not themselves. Verse 12 has just told us God has given them the right, authority, power, ability to choose. So if they have been given the authority and ability to choose how would it not be by their own desire? If they didn’t desire to become children of God they had the authority and ability to choose not to.

Hammster · Jan 9, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I have no problem with verse 13. They are not born of desires of the flesh nor desires of man but are born of God. The phrase “not by the will/desire of man” means they’re not born of the desires of other men. They’re born of God by their own desire. The desires of man is referring to others not themselves. Verse 12 has just told us God has given them the right, authority, power, ability to choose. So if they have been given the authority and ability to choose how would it not be by their own desire? If they didn’t desire to become children of God they had the authority and ability to choose not to.

John teaches in several places that regeneration precedes belief.

So there’s that.

BNR32FAN · Jan 9, 2019

Hammster said:
John teaches in several places that regeneration precedes belief.

So there’s that.

John 15:1-10 Jesus warned His faithful 11 apostles to abide/remain in Him or they would be cut off from the vine (Christ) thrown away to wither and thrown into the fire to be burned.

Strong in Him · Jan 10, 2019

Hammster said:
I’ll just stop right there. There’s nothing to support this. You are either a sheep or a goat. You don’t become one or the other.

Sure you do.
We're all sinners and without God, until we accept Jesus, become born again, one of God's children and live for him. In the OT some kings/leaders started out by following God but didn't continue - e.g Solomon - whereas others were evil and then repented - e.g Ahab.

Jesus told people to repent. He also invited them to follow him, come to him and receive eternal life. He never forced anyone; some people started to follow him and then turned away. I have also heard of people who were once Christians, have turned away and there is no evidence that they will ever turn back. Jesus told his disciples to go into the world, preach the Gospel and make disciples. If people were goats and incapable of being saved, he wouldn't have needed to say that. If other people are sheep and are destined to be saved or belong to God one day; he will save them, whether we go and preach or not.

I can find no justification for, and hate, the idea that God creates all people, in his image - and yet deliberately plans it that some of them will never know him, never be able to repent and are destined to remain godless sinners all their lives.

Hammster · Jan 10, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
John 15:1-10 Jesus warned His faithful 11 apostles to abide/remain in Him or they would be cut off from the vine (Christ) thrown away to wither and thrown into the fire to be burned.

And that has nothing to do with regeneration preceding belief.

But this does

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. - 1 John 5:1

Hammster · Jan 10, 2019

Strong in Him said:
Sure you do.
We're all sinners and without God, until we accept Jesus, become born again, one of God's children and live for him. In the OT some kings/leaders started out by following God but didn't continue - e.g Solomon - whereas others were evil and then repented - e.g Ahab.

Jesus told people to repent. He also invited them to follow him, come to him and receive eternal life. He never forced anyone; some people started to follow him and then turned away. I have also heard of people who were once Christians, have turned away and there is no evidence that they will ever turn back. Jesus told his disciples to go into the world, preach the Gospel and make disciples. If people were goats and incapable of being saved, he wouldn't have needed to say that. If other people are sheep and are destined to be saved or belong to God one day; he will save them, whether we go and preach or not.

The sheep still need saving. He still leaves the 99 to get that one.

And

And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. - John 10:16

Nothing about goats.

Let me ask you, does He say He died for sheep of goats?

Let’s stick with scripture and leave the arguments from emotion out of this.

Strong in Him · Jan 10, 2019

Hammster said:
Let’s stick with scripture and leave the arguments from emotion out of this.

OK.
Scripture says that God created all people in his image, Genesis 1:26-27; Genesis 9:6
Scripture says that there is nothing that was not created through Jesus, John 1:3
Scripture says that everything God made was very good, Genesis 1:31.
Scripture says that God breathed into Adam and put his own breath in him, Genesis 2:7
Scripture says mankind is a little lower than the heavenly beings, Psalms 8:5
Scripture says that God knows us and sees us before we are born, Psalms 139.

So Scripture says that ALL people, believers or not, were created through Jesus, by God who was very pleased with his work, put his own breath into them and regards humans as being a little lower than the angels.

Scripture says that mankind sinned, Genesis 3.
Scripture says that everyone after Adam sinned, see Noah and in fact the whole Bible.
Scripture says that ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory, Romans 3:23.
Scripture says that the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23.
Scripture says that Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8.
Scripture says that this is how we know God's love, 1 John 3:16.
Scripture says that Jesus came to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10.
Scripture says that whoever believes will have eternal life, John 3:16; John 3:36; 1 John 5:12, and can become a child of God, John 1:12.
Scripture says that Christ died for ALL, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15. Makes sense as he died for sinners and ALL are sinners.

So where does it say that some of those people who have been made by God, in his image, through Jesus; who have sinned and need a Saviour just like everyone, have been pre-selected to NOT be saved or believe?
Where does it say that God made some in his image, and declared that work to be very good but had already planned that they would never be able know their maker?
Where does it say that they would be condemned for rejecting God, when it was he who had decided that they would never be allowed to know him?

Strong in Him · Jan 10, 2019

Continued

Scripture also says that God doesn't wish anyone to perish but all to come to repentance, 2 Peter 3:9
Makes sense, as God is love, 1 John 4:8, and love always perseveres, 1 Corinthians 13:7.

BNR32FAN · Jan 10, 2019

Hammster said:
And that has nothing to do with regeneration preceding belief.

But this does

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. - 1 John 5:1

My point is that regeneration doesn’t ensure salvation. According to John 6:64 we know that the faithful apostles did believe at this time.

Hammster · Jan 10, 2019

Strong in Him said:
So where does it say that some of those people who have been made by God, in his image, through Jesus; who have sinned and need a Saviour just like everyone, have been pre-selected to NOT be saved or believe?

John 10.

Hammster · Jan 10, 2019

Strong in Him said:
Continued

Scripture also says that God doesn't wish anyone to perish but all to come to repentance, 2 Peter 3:9
Makes sense, as God is love, 1 John 4:8, and love always perseveres, 1 Corinthians 13:7.

Your context is off.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

The “you” and “any” are the elect referred to in chapter 1.

Hammster · Jan 10, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
My point is that regeneration doesn’t ensure salvation. According to John 6:64 we know that the faithful apostles did believe at this time.

He is a Good Shepherd. He loses no sheep. Thankfully. You should rest on that.

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