Unity; having difficulty

Sm412 · Jan 9, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Doesn't matter what the sin, but just for you, lets say they weren't honoring their father and mother, and were advocating not doing so was just fine...no I would not put up with that either. You chose to completely miss my point. If you are afraid to discuss this step by step, i would imagine that's because you know we are right. If you don't think so, lets debate it. If you can't handle the debate, then don't, and stop accusing us wrongly.

It depends, if I was a thief, or a murderer or the like. maybe/maybe not, either way it would be my own fault.

Go ahead, blame the messenger, we're used to it. would you like to discuss what the bible says on the issue, and why, no, we aren't at fault?

The bible says a lot of things that nobody follows due to irrelevance, infeasibility, or blatant violations of ethics. If your daughter was raped, would you force her to marry her rapist? No? Well it is right there in the bible. Of all the disregarded biblical law, why is it homosexuality that you're so rigid, inflexible, judgmental, and hateful about? Paul says it's shameful for women to speak in church, yet we let women speak in church. Why?

Sexuality is a fixed, natural, biological occurance. Gay people are gay and cannot be changed. Treating them like a thief or a murderer for it is WRONG. It is cruel and harmful. If the bible says it's sin, then those passages of the bible are wrong. Just like the passage about women marrying their rapist, or the passages about cutting off hands or stoning for transgressions. Or how about the passages condoning slavery?

By all means, keep hating your neighbor, keep judging, and keep casting that first stone.

Sm412 · Jan 9, 2019

Efforts to change sexuality are ineffective and harmful. Sexuality cannot be changed. With that said, what would you suggest gay people do? Go to Christian conversion therapy and try to "pray the gay away?" Sorry, but it doesn't work. How about just letting them be and minding your own business? What authority do you have over what people do with their lives?

Sm412 · Jan 9, 2019

By the way, the purpose of this thread was NOT debate. I didn't post this to argue with you. I posted this for tips on how to get along with you. And here you are trying to debate.

Hence why I call this a wash.

Kenny'sID · Jan 9, 2019

Sm412 said:
The bible says a lot of things that nobody follows due to irrelevance, infeasibility, or blatant violations of ethics. If your daughter was raped, would you force her to marry her rapist? No? Well it is right there in the bible.

I understand, however, that is old testament, and if you know your bible you are aware that was the old covenant so it's simply irrelevant. And a lot of things are "right there in the bible", doesn't matter if I like them or not, it's Gods word, so unless you would have me not be concerned about the word of God, not sure what you want from me?

Seem all you are really stating is you don't like Gods word, and because some of it sounds ridiculous to you, Homosexuality should be OK...I'm just not sure how that is logical.

Sm412 said:
Of all the disregarded biblical law, why is it homosexuality that you're so rigid, inflexible, judgmental, and hateful about? Paul says it's shameful for women to speak in church, yet we let women speak in church. Why?

It's up to them what they do in church, not my fault. Seriously you are just grabbing things that regardless my thoughts on them, they offer no defense for you whatsoever.

Again, if you don't like that, how does that make it any less biblical or any reason to believe Homosexuality should be ok? You really need to answer my questions so i can respond, if you skip them, I can only assume you are going to avoid them because you know it's true.

What makes you say I'm so ridged, did you not even read my points in the first post of mine you replied too? It seemed to me you were so upset you completely missed my points, and if you aren't going to so much as even consider what the opposing side set on the table, there is not much sense in trying to debate.

Please go back and see my reasoning why we are not treating homosexuals any differently than anyone who goes against Gods word and tries to make folks think any sin is ok.

You do realize God it very much against Homosexuality, right? Or do we need to start there? I only try to do as the bible teaches. Would you rather I didn't?

Kenny'sID · Jan 9, 2019

Sm412 said:
If the bible says it's sin, then those passages of the bible are wrong.

You pretty well just ended the conversation on that note.

My last post tried to get that out of you so thanks at least for being honest and saving us both a lot of needless argument.

We don't think the passages in Gods word are wrong. How did you expect people from a Christian website to react to a comment like that? You are being very unrealistic.

Sm412 · Jan 9, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
I understand, however, that is old testament, and if you know your bible you are aware that was the old covenant so it's simply irrelevant. And a lot of things are "right there in the bible", doesn't matter if I like them or not, it's Gods word, so unless you would have me not be concerned about the word of God, not sure what you want from me?

Seem all you are really stating is you don't like Gods word, and because some of it sounds ridiculous to you, Homosexuality should be OK...I'm just not sure how that is logical.

It's up to them what they do in church, not my fault. Seriously you are just grabbing things that regardless my thoughts on them, they offer no defense for you whatsoever.

Again, if you don't like that, how does that make it any less biblical or any reason to believe Homosexuality should be ok? You really need to answer my questions so i can respond, if you skip them, I can only assume you are going to avoid them because you know it's true.

What makes you say I'm so ridged, did you not even read my points in the first post of mine you replied too? It seemed to me you were so upset you completely missed my points, and if you aren't going to so much as even consider what the opposing side set on the table, there is not much sense in trying to debate.

Please go back and see my reasoning why we are not treating homosexuals any differently than anyone who goes against Gods word and tries to make folks think any sin is ok.

You do realize God it very much against Homosexuality, right? Or do we need to start there? I only try to do as the bible teaches. Would you rather I didn't?

If God is against homosexuality, then why did He make people homosexual and unable to change it? A point of mine that you missed, is the unchangability of sexuality. It is fixed. Immovable. Efforts to change it are laughably ineffective and have been proven to be harmful. Homosexuality is not a choice and is a natural part of God's design. So what would you have a gay person do? Suicide? You guys already do a pretty good job of driving them to that. My other point, why can't you just leave them alone? What authority do you have to dictate and judge the private lives of law abiding citizens?

I don't need to consider the other side of the argument. It is harmful and detrimental to society.

The idea that the bible is inerrant is ridiculous. God didn't grab a piece of paper and pen it Himself. It was written my MEN. Compiled by MEN. Picked and chosen by MEN. Is man not fallible? It contains errors. Given the science we've gathered behind sexuality, the idea that it's a sinful "choice" is certainly one of those errors.

Women not speaking in church is New Testament. I'm sure you'll allow it anyway.

Sm412 · Jan 9, 2019

Like I said, go ahead and keep hating, judging, and casting that first stone. "I only try to do what the bible teaches." Yea, well, you're pretty far off the mark. Skipped right over these passages, didn't ya?

Jesus judges the world. You do not.

Jesus never said a thing about homosexuality, by the way.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Jan 9, 2019

Sm412 said:
Are you seriously comparing LGBT people to theives and murderers?

Wow! Did you read any of the posts?

It is actually someone who was sympathizing with people who call themselves LGBT that compared different groups of people who were willfully sinning (according to God's standard expressed in His Scriptures). Obviously you don't agree with God. You'll have to take that up with Him, not me. The person asked us why we don't we make as big a deal about other sin and rattled off a bunch including inappropriate content, adultery, etc. I do and most people I know do. The difference is there isn't another group that is collectively trying to fight for the right to live in their sin with church approval.

Don't believe the lies you are fed. Scripture is clear that homosexuality is a sin and if you read Romans 1, it sure sounds like a curse on people who won't accept the knowledge of the Truth. It doesn't mean those who are caught up in it are bad, any more than those caught up in another sin are bad. But, you can't condone any sin, if you are a friend of God.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Jan 9, 2019

Sm412 said:
If God is against homosexuality, then why did He make people homosexual and unable to change it? A point of mine that you missed, is the unchangability of sexuality. It is fixed. Immovable. Efforts to change it are laughably ineffective and have been proven to be harmful. Homosexuality is not a choice and is a natural part of God's design. So what would you have a gay person do? Suicide? You guys already do a pretty good job of driving them to that. My other point, why can't you just leave them alone? What authority do you have to dictate and judge the private lives of law abiding citizens?

I don't need to consider the other side of the argument. It is harmful and detrimental to society.

The idea that the bible is inerrant is ridiculous. God didn't grab a piece of paper and pen it Himself. It was written my MEN. Compiled by MEN. Picked and chosen by MEN. Is man not fallible? It contains errors. Given the science we've gathered behind sexuality, the idea that it's a sinful "choice" is certainly one of those errors.

Women not speaking in church is New Testament. I'm sure you'll allow it anyway.

Where in Scripture did God say He made people homosexual? Where in Scripture did God say that He made man to prefer man and woman to prefer woman--unless they were being cursed by Him?

So, the problem you have is you don't believe Scripture. So, you have no standard. Your standard moves with public opinion and false science. So, you don't really have a way to know whether God is speaking to you or a demon is speaking to you, because you don't have a standard to determine it by. Your standard is what seems right to you. Twice in the Proverbs, God says: "There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." You side with the world on issues, yet Scripture says that "The Spirit and the world are at enmity with each other." So, if you are siding with the world, whose side are you really on? According to Scripture, you aren't on God's side. You just need to know that. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Who are you going to serve?

Sm412 · Jan 9, 2019

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
Where in Scripture did God say He made people homosexual? Where in Scripture did God say that He made man to prefer man and woman to prefer woman--unless they were being cursed by Him?

So, the problem you have is you don't believe Scripture. So, you have no standard. Your standard moves with public opinion and false science. So, you don't really have a way to know whether God is speaking to you or a demon is speaking to you, because you don't have a standard to determine it by. Your standard is what seems right to you. Twice in the Proverbs, God says: "There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." You side with the world on issues, yet Scripture says that "The Spirit and the world are at enmity with each other." So, if you are siding with the world, whose side are you really on? According to Scripture, you aren't on God's side. You just need to know that. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Who are you going to serve?

Romans 1 was written by PAUL. Is Paul the Lord? Is Paul infallible? Is Paul Jesus Christ?

It is you who isn't on God's side. You hate and you persecute, which is forbidden by scripture. Re-examine your life.

False science? Are you a scientist? Have you examined study on sexuality, or are you just going off Paul's opinion?

I side with the well-being of human beings, which is ON THE SIDE OF THE LORD. Your oppression harms them. Your oppression has driven countless to depression and suicide, ripped apart families, and caused people who DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE GAY BUT SIMPLY NATURALLY WERE to be shunned by society. Shame on you.

Again, I'd like to know what your solution is. Go ahead, solve the gay problem, should you be so wise. What are they to do?

Lastly, two things: You have failed to address my other points in the OP and instead fixated on the gays. Typical of a conservative. How about the racial oppression supported by the southern (mostly Christian) community throughout the history of the US. What's your answer to that? Also, this post WAS NOT a debate. It was an effort to learn to somehow unify with swine like you.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Jan 10, 2019

Sm412 said:
So homosexuality is a curse now? You're a lunatic. God made man, and some men are naturally gay, meaning they were made that way. You fundamentally misunderstand sexuality. If scripture can't hold up to science on sexuality, evolution, or the age of the earth, what is it really worth?

Nobody has answered my question: what do you suggest gay people do? Being that changing sexuality is impossible and attempts to do so are harmful, what's your solution? What should they do?

(staff edit)

I am a Christian. Just reading your response, I have to question if you are.

First, you sling nasty insults--clearly not concerned about the words you use. If God doesn't listen to you, read what you write and you will see for yourself why.

Second, you reject Scripture and instead choose to believe man-made lies over Scriptural Truth. That is not the mark of someone who loves God. That is a mark of people who reject God. If you reject Scripture, you don't have any real grounds to genuinely believe in Jesus Christ.

Whether you like it or not, Romans 1:18-32 is very clear. "God gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves...." (Rom 1:24) "For this cause, God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet and even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient...." (Rom 1:26-28)

It is only impossible to truly change the sex God created you with, though modern science adds to the confusion by making artificial adjustments. However, it is completely possible for someone to come to God in spirit and truth and have their false perceptions of their sexuality changed. It has happened. It is only scientific lie that says it is normal for a male to prefer a male and a woman to prefer a woman. Nobody was created by God that way. And, nobody who comes to God has to stay that way.

So what should they do? Submit to God and resist the devil and he will flee!

Johnny4ChristJesus · Jan 10, 2019

Sm412 said:
Romans 1 was written by PAUL. Is Paul the Lord? Is Paul infallible? Is Paul Jesus Christ?

It is you who isn't on God's side. You hate and you persecute, which is forbidden by scripture. Re-examine your life.

False science? Are you a scientist? Have you examined study on sexuality, or are you just going off Paul's opinion?

I side with the well-being of human beings, which is ON THE SIDE OF THE LORD. Your oppression harms them. Your oppression has driven countless to depression and suicide, ripped apart families, and caused people who DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE GAY BUT SIMPLY NATURALLY WERE to be shunned by society. Shame on you.

Again, I'd like to know what your solution is. Go ahead, solve the gay problem, should you be so wise. What are they to do?

Lastly, two things: You have failed to address my other points in the OP and instead fixated on the gays. Typical of a conservative. How about the racial oppression supported by the southern (mostly Christian) community throughout the history of the US. What's your answer to that? Also, this post WAS NOT a debate. It was an effort to learn to somehow unify with swine like you.

It is apparent you have problems. I hope you realize that your constant cursing of me can do me no harm, because you don't speak for or hear from God. You speak from your own world-bound perspective and whatever binds you. You reject Paul. Yet, Peter said that what Paul wrote should be considered Scripture. Scripture also reports that THE LORD said to Ananias of Saul/Paul: "for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear My Name before the gentiles, and kings and the children of Israel...." So God chose Paul and you reject Paul. And you don't see a problem with that.

I am not against people who participate in homosexual actions, nor am I against any other person that engages in sinful behavior. But, I owe it to them to make sure they are clear what God says about whatever sin they are engaging in, not to enable them to continue in the sin.

If they choose to reject Him, they make that choice, and suffer the consequences of rejecting Him. If they accept what God says and repent, I look forward to their deliverance and seeing them coming to God in spirit and truth and being set free!

Sm412 · Jan 10, 2019

Studies also show that homophobic men have higher rates of latent homosexuality than non-homophobic men. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of you has a Grindr.

You sure you don't like dudes? Stuff those urges waaayyyy deep down. Maybe you can get your wife drunk and she'll give up her butthole.

Sm412 · Jan 11, 2019

If there is a hell, I'll see you there.

Oh, and the transgender thing, there's this: A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. - PubMed - NCBI

But here I am with that science again.

You are the Christian equivalent of a Pharisee.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Jan 11, 2019

Sm412 said:
If there is a hell, I'll see you there.

Oh, and the transgender thing, there's this: A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. - PubMed - NCBI

But here I am with that science again.

You are the Christian equivalent of a Pharisee.

Sm412 said:
You've done nothing but attack me viciously since joining this thread, and you shame me for reacting. Suck my fat choad. How bout that?

So I see you are a fan of "praying the gay away." You are aware of the abysmal success rates and the psychological harm of such action, right? More often than not, gay Christian men who "convert" to heterosexuality get caught with male escorts, or simply continue to have gay sex secretly. Happens all the time. It's happened to many a' pastor and priest. My money says most of your success stories still smack their meat to gay inappropriate content when no one is looking.

You are clearly unaware of the science behind sexuality. It's no more a choice than race, and equally unchangeable. Hence, it is God's natural order. The scripture you quoted is Paul. I follow Jesus, not Paul. The apostles, holy as they were, were still fallible men at the end of the day.

The bible is a guide, but written by mortal men, with all of their fallibility. How can you preach the fallibility of men, to the point of needing a savior, then suggest those fallible men wrote and compiled a perfect bible. Evidence of this fallibility is clear in some of the more morally abhorrent and scientifically inaccurate stuff in the Old Testament. The idea of inerrancy and literal interpretation is absurd.

That's what this boils down to. I don't believe in the bible is inerrant or literal. I CERTAINLY don't believe Paul is inerrant, nor is Paul God. And I don't interpret literally. The earth is 4.5 billion years old, evolution is true, there was no literal Adam and Eve, and homosexuality is a perfectly natural and normal occurrence among human beings and many other species. You are denying science outright. If your scripture can't hold up to science, it either must be reinterpreted or thrown in the garbage. Pick one. Or by all means, bury your head in the sand every time a scientist speaks.

All this doesn't matter though. Jesus judges the world. You do not.

You cannot reject the Christian Scriptures and say you believe in the Christian God. You are calling God a liar when you discard His Testimony.

Since you follow a non-Christian god, your judgement means nothing.

Continued conversation with you isn't helping you and I won't continue to tolerate your abuse. If you continue to speak lies to people on this site, I will respond, because I care about Truth. But, I won't respond to your ignorant personal attacks any more, because I know for a fact that you aren't speaking for the only true and living God.

St. Helens · Jan 11, 2019

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St. Helens · Jan 13, 2019

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