Question about eternal damnation

FineLinen · Jan 9, 2019

Ronald said:
You just don't get it. It' like talking to a wall. Actually, I would bet that you are a liberal Democrat - that would explain it.

Dear Ronald: Do not bet your young life on it! The "wall" can be breached by showing me that St. Paul was discombobulated in the cherished purpose of the Father in relationship to the ages to come for a start. If you would perhaps be more comfortable with the scope of malista and monos/ monon we will start there.

Perhaps the scope of the all things being reconciled in Jesus Christ would be more comfortable with you?

Where shall we begin, Ronald? Or, shall we?

Your words for today= ta panta

From Him the all, through Him the all, in Him the all

FineLinen · Jan 9, 2019

Questions

As “love thinketh no evil,” can God design the ultimate evil of a single soul? (1 Cor. 13:5)

As “love worketh no ill,” can God inflict, or cause, or allow to be inflicted, an endless ill? (Rom. 13:10)

As we are forbidden to be overcome by evil, can we safely suppose that God will be overcome by evil? (Rom. 12:21)

Would not the infliction of endless punishment prove that God HAD been overcome by evil?

If man does wrong in returning evil for evil, would not God do wrong if He was to do the same?

Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

As we are commanded “to overcome evil with good,” may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?

Questions Without Answers

Butch5 · Jan 9, 2019

Pneuma3 said:
eek gad where do I start as basic math seems to elude you.
I am going to give this in point form as to break it all down for you would just be a waiste of my time.

The is no such thing as a tree that gives knowledge or a tree that gives life.

Those two trees are a representation of the law and life in Christ. they are a shadow of that which is true.

You're going to break it down? What you just gave me is pure speculation without an iota of proof

the tree of KOGE gives one a knowledge of sin.
The law gives a knowledge of sin.
1+1=2

The law is spiritual
The law is a ministration of death
1+1=2

You're trying to turn your interpretation into an equation? That's a leap in logic. Firstly, you still haven't even defined what "spiritual" means. You don't seem to grasp that what you're presenting is an interpretation of the text. It's quite possible that that interpretation is wrong. Also, you haven't defined spiritual so no one can really know what it is you're saying. You've left it up to each person to try to figure out what "spiritual" means to you. Additionally, as I've pointed out the word ministration means to do good for others

And we know because of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which you said you are aware of, that a physical DEATH was in the world a long time before Adam ate so how can it be a physical death that Adam brought into the world.

Now you're in direct conflict with Scripture. Paul said that death entered the world through Adam. So, it would seem that either you're missing something or you don't hold the Scriptures as the ultimate authority.

Thus because you continue to maintain that it was a physical death that Adam brought into the world I know you have no understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics for if you did you would have already seen your error.

As I said, I'm quite aware of the second law of thermodynamics. However, you're making an assumption that it was in place before Adam fell. All you can do is speculate about that. You can't prove it. However, as I stated before, it's irrelevant because Adam had access to the Tree of Life.

Also, I pointed out that the word "spiritual" is a figurative use of the word pneuma which literally means wind or breath. I asked you to explain to me what "wind death" or "breath death" are. Can you please do that?

Butch5 · Jan 9, 2019

Der Alter said:
Your opinion about the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia, the Talmud and other sources I cite is not relevant. Of course you are going to attack any source I quote simply because they prove you wrong. There is an old saying that goes something like this, " "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." And you making unsupported claims and opinions do not "show" me anything. What I have shown from historical sources there was a belief in "hell" among the Jews before, during and after the time of Jesus. There was a belief in hell among the early church fathers.

Firstly, I didn't attack your sources. I simply pointed out that they are not inspired. The reason for doing so is that it appears that you believe they are.

Of course there was belief in hell among the Jews is Jesus day. They were influenced during the Babylonian captivity. However, the Bible states that the Sadducees and Pharisees didn't believe it. However, just because it was believed doesn't mean it's true. Greek influence also had a great impact on people who were becoming Christians. They already believed in a disembodied afterlife. Again, that doesn't make true.

You're argument is that ETC is Biblical and it's not.

Pneuma3 · Jan 9, 2019

Butch5 said:
You're going to break it down? What you just gave me is pure speculation without an iota of proof

Nope, because it would only waste my time because you have already proven to me simple math eludes you.

Butch5 said:
You're trying to turn your interpretation into an equation? That's a leap in logic. Firstly, you still haven't even defined what "spiritual" means. You don't seem to grasp that what you're presenting is an interpretation of the text. It's quite possible that that interpretation is wrong. Also, you haven't defined spiritual so no one can really now what it is you're saying. You've left it up to each person to try to figure out what "spiritual" means to you. Additionally, as I've pointed out the word ministration means to do good for others

I have defined what spiritual is and so did the scriptures.
The law is spiritual.

Butch5 said:
Now your in direct conflict with Scripture. Paul said that death entered the world through Adam. So, it would seem that either you're missing or you don't hold the Scriptures as the ultimate authority.

No disagreement with me and Paul, me and you yes.

The death Adam brought into the world was the law, but you have been told this already.

Butch5 said:
As I said, I'm quite aware of the second law of thermodynamics. However, you're making an assumption that it was in place before Adam fell. All you can do is speculate about that. You can't prove it. However, as I stated before, it's irrelevant because Adam had access to the Tree of Life.

That not an assumption it is scientifically provable, which again tells me you no nothing of the second law of thermodynamics ( your posturing is just digging a deeper hole for you) for if you did you would have already seen your error.

Pneuma3 · Jan 9, 2019

Butch5 said:
Additionally, as I've pointed out the word ministration means to do good for others

And that is exactly what the law does, good.

Butch5 said:
Also, I pointed out that the word "spiritual" is a figurative use of the word pneuma which literally means wind or breath. I asked you to explain to me what "wind death" or "breath death" are. Can you please do that?

God is spirit does that make Him wind God or breath God?
And I have already explained what the death via the law does, it annihilates the old man nature.

Do you not see death as annihilation? if so you are already half way to understanding. the difference is you apply that which is spiritual to the physical, I do not.

Butch5 · Jan 9, 2019

Pneuma3 said:
Nope, because it would only waste my time because you have already proven to me simple math eludes you.

Translation, you can't back up your claim and it's nothing more than speculation.

I have defined what spiritual is and so did the scriptures.
The law is spiritual.['/quote]

Actually, you haven't. Yes the law is spiritual, what does that mean? Here, the definition of spiritual is______________.

No disagreement with me and Paul, me and you yes.

The death Adam brought into the world was the law, but you have been told this already.

Click to expand...

Wait, if the law was before Adam, how did he bring it into the world? It seems the cart is before the horse here. However, that death can't be a law. God said what that death was. He told Adam, 'for dust you are and to dust you shall return'. A law isn't returning to dust. That wouldn't even make sense. The death that Adam brought into the word is returning to dust. That's physical, everyone can see that. When life leaves the body it decays and returns to dust.

That not an assumption it is scientifically provable, which again tells me you no nothing of the second law of thermodynamics ( your posturing is just digging a deeper hole for you) for if you did you would have already seen your error.

Click to expand...

You keep making these wild claims and accusations that I'm in error without producing a shred of evidence. You, like the rest of us have no idea what God did or didn't do with Adam. We only have what is recorded. However, we have what Moses recorded and when God finished the creation He said, 'it was very good'. If death is very good, why is it called an enemy in Scripture? Why is it going to be destroyed?

Again, I pointed out that the wprd spirit is a figurative use of the Greek word pneuma, which literally means wind or breath. Can please explain to me what "wind death" or "breath death" is. I really have no idea.

Butch5 · Jan 9, 2019

Pneuma3 said:
And that is exactly what the law does, good.

Are you saying death is good?

God is spirit does that make Him wind God or breath God?

Yes it does.
However, you still haven't answered my question. What is wind or breath death?

You're question here seems to imply that you really don't know what spiritual means in regard to pneuma. Remember, it's figurative, not literal.

And I have already explained what the death via the law does, it annihilates the old man nature.

Do you not see death as annihilation? if so you are already half way to understanding. the difference is you apply that which is spiritual to the physical, I do not.

Yes you have. However, you've given nothing to prove it other than conflating two passages of Scripture. One that doesn't even mention law and another that is referring to the Law of Moses.

Pneuma3 · Jan 9, 2019

Butch5 said:
Translation, you can't back up your claim and it's nothing more than speculation.

The second law of thermodynamics backs up my claim. What backs up your claim?

Butch5 said:
Are you saying death is good?

In that it annihilates the old man nature, yes.

Butch5 said:
Yes it does.
However, you still haven't answered my question. What is wind or breath death?

You're question here seems to imply that you really don't know what spiritual means in regard to pneuma. Remember, it's figurative, not literal.

No what it shows me is you don't understand my answer.

Butch5 said:
Yes you have. However, you've given nothing to prove it other than conflating two passages of Scripture. One that doesn't even mention law and another that is referring to the Law of Moses.

How many times do I have to point out to you second law of thermodynamics? You say you understand it, but keep disregarding it in every post you make.

Science and scripture will work hand in hand if you will use them, what you are doing is making a mockery of one at the expense of the other, basically saying they both cannot be correct.

Der Alte · Jan 9, 2019

Butch5 said:
Firstly, I didn't attack your sources. I simply pointed out that they are not inspired. The reason for doing so is that it appears that you believe they are.

Guess what that is attacking my sources. And I'm sure I clearly stated that the sources are not inspired but they are the ONLY historical record we have of how the Jews interpreted the Hebrews scriptures and put them into practice.

B5 said:
begin

<B5>Of course there was belief in hell among the Jews is Jesus day. They were influenced during the Babylonian captivity. However, the Bible states that the Sadducees and Pharisees didn't believe it. However, just because it was believed doesn't mean it's true. Greek influence also had a great impact on people who were becoming Christians. They already believed in a disembodied afterlife. Again, that doesn't make true.<B5>

end

• Hey amigo I didn't make this stuff up I quoted actual Jewish evidence the Jewish Encyclopedia,
Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which you blew off without comment.
• You have provided zero evidence that the Jews were influenced by the Babylonians. During the exile the prophets condemned the Jews for many things. If the Jews were influenced by the Babylonians don't you think the prophets of that era; Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Zephaniah, Obadiah, Ezekiel, Joel etc. would have preached about it?
• First you claim that the Jews were influenced by the Babylonians with zero evidence then you claim that the Christians were influenced by the Greeks, again zero evidence. While you virtually ignore the evidence I provided.
• The Bible says nothing about the belief of the Pharisees on hell. There was another group you missed "Essenes." The belief in hell among the Jews was significant enough that it is mentioned in the three sources I quoted.
What don't you actually read my post and address the several points I made?
Jesus knew what the Jews believed about the afterlife.

You're argument is that ETC is Biblical and it's not

Jesus definitely taught about ECT.

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Then I could quote from the ECF how they understood these scriptures. But you would reject them because they are not inspired.

Butch5 · Jan 9, 2019

Pneuma3 said:
The second law of thermodynamics backs up my claim. What backs up your claim?

In that it annihilates the old man nature, yes.

No what it shows me is you don't understand my answer.

How many times do I have to point out to you second law of thermodynamics? You say you understand it, but keep disregarding it in every post you make.

Science and scripture will work hand in hand if you will use them, what you are doing is making a mockery of one at the expense of the other, basically saying they both cannot be correct.

If you're not going to address the issues with meaningful matter we're not going to make any progress. You can't just claim something is so and expect people to accept it.

You're argument is that the law is spiritual, yet you refuse to define the word spiritual. What does the word spiritual mean to you?

I've pointed out that the word spirit is a figurative use of the word pneuma. That should indicate that when you say the law is spiritual it's a figure of speech. So, what is the figurative meaning?

You're claiming you're right and I'm wrong based on a word you refuse to define. I'm sorry but without a definition no one can really know for sure what you mean. It seems to me that you're leaving this definition out on purpose so as to be able to equivocate.

Since you claim that the second law of thermodynamics proves your point, please supply evidence that this law was in effect before Adam sinned.

All of this is supposed to be your support for the idea of spiritual death, something found nowhere in the Bible.

Butch5 · Jan 9, 2019

Der Alter said:
Guess what that is attacking my sources. And I'm sure I clearly stated that the sources are not inspired but they are the ONLY historical record we have of how the Jews interpreted the Hebrews scriptures and put them into practice.
<B5>Of course there was belief in hell among the Jews is Jesus day. They were influenced during the Babylonian captivity. However, the Bible states that the Sadducees and Pharisees didn't believe it. However, just because it was believed doesn't mean it's true. Greek influence also had a great impact on people who were becoming Christians. They already believed in a disembodied afterlife. Again, that doesn't make true.<B5>
• Hey amigo I didn't make this stuff up I quoted actual Jewish evidence the Jewish Encyclopedia,
Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which you blew off without comment.
• You have provided zero evidence that the Jews were influenced by the Babylonians. During the exile the prophets condemned the Jews for many things. If the Jews were influenced by the Babylonians don't you think the prophets of that era; Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Zephaniah, Obadiah, Ezekiel, Joel etc. would have preached about it?
• First you claim that the Jews were influenced by the Babylonians with zero evidence then you claim that the Christians were influenced by the Greeks, again zero evidence. While you virtually ignore the evidence I provided.
• The Bible says nothing about the belief of the Pharisees on hell. There was another group you missed "Essenes." The belief in hell among the Jews was significant enough that it is mentioned in the three sources I quoted.
What don't you actually read my post and address the several points I made?
Jesus knew what the Jews believed about the afterlife.

Jesus definitely taught about ECT.

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Then I could quote from the ECF how they understood these scriptures. But you would reject them because they are not inspired.

Then maybe you should look into what attacking means. Stating a fact about something is not attacking it.

Actually, as I said before we've been over this too many times. I'm no longer going to expend time gathering information for posts only to have you dismiss whatever is posted. You only recognize you sources. Everything else is invalid.

Regarding ETC, your interpretation of those passages doesn't prove ECT. It simply proves you are misunderstanding those passages. As I've pointed out before, quite a few times actually, Aion does not mean eternal. Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. If the aion ends, which according to Jesus, it does, then it's not eternal. Jesus said it that should end it. However, I know you'll cut and paste your aion info from you grammars claiming aion means eternal. An then I say that you grammars aren't inspired. Jesus said the aion ends, thus it ends. That leaves you with the decision of believing what Jesus said or what your grammars say.

Der Alte · Jan 9, 2019

Butch5 said:
begin

<B5>Then maybe you should look into what attacking means. Stating a fact about something is not attacking it.
Actually, as I said before we've been over this too many times. I'm no longer going to expend time gathering information for posts only to have you dismiss whatever is posted. You only recognize you sources. Everything else is invalid.
Regarding ETC, your interpretation of those passages doesn't prove ECT. It simply proves you are misunderstanding those passages. As I've pointed out before, quite a few times actually, Aion does not mean eternal. Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. If the aion ends, which according to Jesus, it does, then it's not eternal. Jesus said it that should end it. However, I know you'll cut and paste your aion info from you grammars claiming aion means eternal. An then I say that you grammars aren't inspired. Jesus said the aion ends, thus it ends. That leaves you with the decision of believing what Jesus said or what your grammars say.<B5>

end

You do whatever you like but I will continue to expose your invalid assumptions. The difference between our sources is I quote primary sources and you quote anything off the internet which seems to support your assumptions/presuppositions.
.....I misunderstand nothing. As I have said a number of times I started learning to speak Greek in Germany the year the Elvis and I were stationed there. I never met him. And I formally studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level about 2 decades after that. And I have Hebrew and Greek grammars and lexicons in my library. How many semesters of Greek or Hebrew have you had? How many Greek or Hebrew languages resources do you have?
.....You make the same grammatical errors that virtually all other heterodox groups make. Pick out a few instances where a word is used a certain way and proclaim that is what it means. You make the absurd comment that grammars are not inspired but you act as if your unsupported opinion is inspired and should be blindly accepted over any other source.
.....Once again you have it wrong. It is not a choice of believing what Jesus said or what Greek grammars and lexicons say. It is a choice between believing your unsupported opinion and what 100s of years of Greek scholarship show.
.....With another word from the NT, κόσμος/kosmos, I am going to demonstrate how ridiculous your argument is.

Matthew 16:26
(26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, [κόσμος/kosmos] and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

John 12:19
(19) The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world [κόσμος/kosmos] is gone after him.
John 14:17
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world [κόσμος/kosmos] cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Romans 1:8
(8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.[κόσμος/kosmos]
1 John 5:19
(19) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world [κόσμος/kosmos] lieth in wickedness.
Luke 2:1
(1) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world [ οἰκουμένη/oikoumené] should be taxed

Can a person literally gain the "whole world?"
Did the "whole world" literally go after Jesus?
Can “the world” literally not receive the Spirit of truth.
Was the faith of the Roman Christians literally spoken of throughout the "whole world?"
Did “the whole world” literally lie in wickedness.
Did Caesar literally tax “all the world”?
.....To copy your argument the Greek word κόσμος/kosmos, translated world, cannot mean the entire planet earth because in all these verses it refers to something which could not be the entire world.

ClementofA · Jan 9, 2019

Ronald said:
To Universalists who strain to include all mankind into God’s Eternal Kingdom

“and to those contentious, and disobedient, indeed, to the truth, and obeying the unrighteousness -- indignation and wrath, Rom. 2:8 There is no new found belief and obedience in Hades or the Lake of Fire.

This & your other points have been addressed many times before & repeatedly, yet you continue to advocate a hateful God who is unjust, unloving, immoral & unrighteous. IOW you reject Biblical Universalism.

What would be the point of Love Omnipotent raising those who cannot be saved to suffer judgement & torments in the lake of fire? Is He a sadist? Or are postmortem judgments & punishments of the lost corrective & for their good?

Rom.2:[7](Romans 2:7 to those, indeed, who by endurance in good acts are seeking glory and honor and incorruption, life eonian;") to those, indeed, who by endurance in good acts are seeking glory and honor and incorruption, life eonian (CLV)

Romans 2 Wherefore, defenseless are you, O man! everyone who is judging, for in what you are judging another, you are condemning yourself, for you who are judging are committing the same things."

Paul can be interpreted as contrasting those who get aionios life (Rom.2:7) with those who get wrath on a certain "day", the "day of wrath" (Rom.2:5). Not 'the eternity of wrath'. Endless wrath is not mentioned in this context, but "indignation... ,tribulation and distress" (v.8-9). BTW, those who have ceased to exist forever, as in the Conditionalism theory, would not be in "distress".

Also as regards a "day of wrath" (2:5), we understand that a "day" of punishment is not an endless punishment, though in Scripture a day can be 1000 years to the Lord (2 Pet.3:8). And 1000 years is the length of the millennial age eon kingdom of the Lord. So why couldn't this passage be contrasting eonian destinies in the future millennium? The gift of eon-ian life [life in the millennial age eon] being to those who seek "glory, honor & purity" or incorruption (of soul & spirit, in this life).

Concerning the objection "but only God gives them life for a limited age. Not very encouraging!", neither Paul, Scripture or Universalists use the word "only". Not that anyone deserves a future life of endless bliss, or even for 1000 or 25,000 years, but there are many other statements in Romans, in Paul's other writings & the NT as a whole in support of an endless life being the gift that Love Omnipotent shall grant to those who are His in this world, e.g. Romans 8:31-38. Ultimately, IMO, all shall obtain such a life:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL mankind for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Rom.8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

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ClementofA · Jan 9, 2019

Der Alter said:
Pity that this proof text does not say what you think it does.

Romans 11:32
(32) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy [ελεηση
/elésé] upon all.
Notice the word [ελεηση/elésé] which is translated "he might have mercy" is a V-AAS-3S verb, active, aorist, subjunctive. 3rd person, singular. "The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances." If Paul intended to say that God would definitely have mercy/compassion on the whole he would have have used the indicative mood as he did in Romans 9:15. Hope this helps.
.

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

Co.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

This states the purpose of Love Omnipotent's - divine will - in sending His Son:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

The IVA ("that") is used in Jn.3:17 above. BDAG says “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the *divine will*…” ἵνα — с греческого на все языки

The IVA also occurs in Phil.2:9-11:

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

What is the "world" in Jn.1:29; 3:17, 4:42 according to BDAG? According to BDAG by "world" in such verses is meant "humanity in general". Jesus Himself would be the only exception:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn.1:29)
They said to the woman, "We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world. (Jn.4:42)
For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

And BDAG again, re Rom.5:18, is quoted in this commentary:

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter
he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10
...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"
...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor;
(2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which
"many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins
...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

Der Alte · Jan 9, 2019

Butch5 said:
... As I've pointed out before, quite a few times actually, Aion does not mean eternal. Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. If the aion ends, which according to Jesus, it does, then it's not eternal. Jesus said it that should end it. However, I know you'll cut and paste your aion info from you grammars claiming aion means eternal. ...

Here showing once again you don't know what you are talking about. My post again where I quote 22 passages of scripture, no grammars, no lexicons, proving from scripture alone that aion means eternity and aionios mean eternal. Do you believe Jesus when He says that aion means eternity and ainios means eternal in Luke 1:33, John 6:58, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16?
In twenty one [21] of the following twenty two [22] verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as eternal, everlasting etc.:

1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26.

…..In the NT “aion/aionios” refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.

[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[3]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]

In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.

In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.

In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[8]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[Continued next post]

Der Alte · Jan 9, 2019

[Previous post continued]

[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”

[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[ εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.

In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

[18]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.

In this verse “aionion” is paired with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal or everlasting life.

[19]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[20]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[21]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[22]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."

According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.

Pneuma3 · Jan 10, 2019

Butch5 said:
If you're not going to address the issues with meaningful matter we're not going to make any progress. You can't just claim something is so and expect people to accept it.

I gave reasons in point form, you reject them, that does not mean I did not address them.

Butch5 said:
You're argument is that the law is spiritual, yet you refuse to define the word spiritual. What does the word spiritual mean to you?

What you want is for me to give you a definition so you can argue about the definition I give. Do you have no concept of spiritual? If so give it and I will work with your definition.

Butch5 said:
I've pointed out that the word spirit is a figurative use of the word pneuma. That should indicate that when you say the law is spiritual it's a figure of speech. So, what is the figurative meaning?

So when we receive a spiritual body according to you that is just a figure of speech and we do not really get a spiritual body.

Butch5 said:
You're claiming you're right and I'm wrong based on a word you refuse to define. I'm sorry but without a definition no one can really know for sure what you mean. It seems to me that you're leaving this definition out on purpose so as to be able to equivocate.

I have not based it on just that, I have also pointed you to the second law of thermodynamics which you say you understand, but obviously do not. Thus not only does scripture back up what I am saying so to does science.

You on the other hand have given me nothing except you believe the death Adam brought in was a physical death and we are all to accept your understanding without any proof.

Butch5 said:
Since you claim that the second law of thermodynamics proves your point, please supply evidence that this law was in effect before Adam sinned.

Did the dinosaur and man inhabit the earth at the same time? How long to you believe man has been on this planet?

Butch5 said:
All of this is supposed to be your support for the idea of spiritual death, something found nowhere in the Bible.

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Did Paul die physically here?

Spiritual death is recorded throughout scripture.

Are those without Christ spiritually alive? if not what would you call them for they are not physically dead.

If ones spirit must be saved what is it saved from?

So lets go back to what Paul said.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It was not just death that Adam brought into the world it was also sin and sin is mentioned first as the cause of death.

Now

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Now as sin is the cause of the death brought in how did Adam gain the knowledge (key word) that he had sinned?

Paul tells us that it is because of the law we gain the knowledge (key word again) of sin.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

And what does Paul say the commandment did?

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Sin revived and he died.

Now Paul is obviously not speaking of a physical death here is he? so what does it mean mean when Paul said "I died" if he is not speaking of a physical death?

FineLinen · Jan 10, 2019

FineLinen said:
Dear Ronald: Do not bet your young life on it! The "wall" can be breached by showing me that St. Paul was discombobulated in the cherished purpose of the Father in relationship to the ages to come for a start. If you would perhaps be more comfortable with the scope of malista and monos/ monon we will start there.

Perhaps the scope of the all things being reconciled in Jesus Christ would be more comfortable with you?

Where shall we begin, Ronald? Or, shall we?

Your words for today= ta panta

From Him the all, through Him the all, in Him the all

Dear Ronald: There is a no no in the Living God. Do you know what it is?

"You have limited the Holy One of Israel."

Why do you forever proclaim our Father does all His work on this side of the grave? Why?

Never attempt to limit the Unlimited One! Never!

The whole of created life shall be delivered/set free..

Your word for today= eleutheroo

FineLinen · Jan 10, 2019

The punishment of the Father of all fathers is not merely correction: it is correction that improves, changes, transforms for the better.

Our God punishes with an objective in view, not as an end in itself!

There are dual aspects to our Father’s Realm as shown in the following…

Tamiym/ 'ymt means to be consumed, destroyed, exhausted and spent, but also to be finished and made sound.

Kalal has the same meaning, linking destruction, being spent, exhausted, as well as to be finished and made sound.

Tamam, the root word of Tamiym means to be finished, complete, summed up, made whole: linked with to be consumed, exhausted, spent and destroyed.

Shalam/ ~IX, another expression of destruction, has the scope of being finished and ended, made good or whole, & being made sound, coupled with to be restored.

Shebar, rooted in Shabar, means breakout, and being brought to birth; and underlying new birth and breakout? To be crushed and broken. Again there is dual meaning in our Lord’s words of destruction and re-creation.

Chalowph

The destructive Hebrew word Chalowph is rooted in being altered, renewed, changed, and to sprout again. It should also be noted that this is not just change, but change for the better.

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Question about eternal damnation

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