Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The Sda interpretation of Daniel, as describing the Middle Ages, and them being the remnant church in t eh wilderness, and especially their Investigative Judgment views are outside orthodoxy, and are due to the false prophetess Ellen White theology!

That is correct and I agree completely. None of those teaching are Biblical.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Until you read Daniel 7


The real question that needs to be asked here is Why are Ellen White's teachings, which are clearly unbiblical, and in part copied from others, still being upheld and defended by YOU and others in the modern SDA church?

The plain unadultered truth is that The entire belief system of the SDA church would be undermined if the truth of Scripture were to be seen apart from the ‘filter’ of Ellen White regulating its interpretation. Truth would flow from the study of the Word and doctrines would be contradicted - starting with the Investigative Judgement which YOU continue to argue for in Daniel 7.

I believe that there are those in the upper eschelons of SDAism who knowingly and wilfully withhold the truth about the false foundations of the movement and their “prophetess”. The church has attempted to maintain control of members (through fear of the investigative judgement and works based salvation) and to guarantee continued the financial support of church members who feel they are not clever enough to interpret the Scriptures (especially prophecy) for themselves.

Generations of church leaders have wrongly and deceitfully ceded authority to Ellen White, whilst living hypocritical and spiritually fruitless lives. Therefore, God has given them over to believe their own delusions, and hence His will for today's church will never be done. The SDA movement is clearly not part of the faithful Body of Christ that God is building in these times.
Source: Ellen White versus the Bible
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
And of course the Protestant Reformers were historicist.

Another detail is that ALL Bible timelines are contiguous.

that means the 70 years of Jeremiah that Daniel references in Daniel 9:1-10 are all one timeline -- no gaps.

And it means that the 70 weeks of years that Daniel references in that same chapter - a 490 year timeline are also contiguous - no eisegetical insert of a gap of "undefined time" into the middle of the timeline.

So then pre-mill post trib with all that 490 year timeline as one single contiguous unsliced/non-dice timeline pointing to Christ's ministry and his death on the cross 3.5 years after his ministry started with His baptism.

has absolutely nothing at all to do with the 1260 year tribulation period that came after the fall of the Roman empire - described in Dan 7, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13.

You said...…..
"Another detail is that ALL Bible timelines are contiguous."

Incorrect.

A Messiah was promised in Genesis 3:15 but did not come until 4000 years later.

That same Messiah was promised to come from a virgin and did not happen for another 3000 years.

I could go on and on but I think most e=understand that you are incorrect.....again.

Also Daniel 9 says that Messiah WILL BE CUT OFF which did not happen for another 400 years or so.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Daniel is addressing the Jewish people at end of days,

until you read Daniel 7 and see that the "saints" were going to be persecuted for 1260 years sometime after the fall of the pagan Roman empire and until the judgment of Daniel 7:9-10 ended at which time we have ... the second coming.

It is pretty hard for us all to imagine that no Jews got persecuted until the Roman empire fell given that Daniel is writing while Jews are captive in Babylon and given that 70 A.D. comes long before the fall of the pagan roman empire.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Daniel’s 70th week rests on the battleground between radically different sides. On one side you will find the futurists, and on the other the historicists. If you believe this seven year period is yet in the future you are a futurist, and if you believe it is in the past you are an historicist.

And of course the Protestant Reformers were historicist.

Another detail is that ALL Bible timelines are contiguous.

that means the 70 years of Jeremiah that Daniel references in Daniel 9:1-10 are all one timeline -- no gaps.

And it means that the 70 weeks of years that Daniel references in that same chapter - a 490 year timeline are also contiguous - no eisegetical insert of a gap of "undefined time" into the middle of the timeline.

So then pre-mill post trib with all that 490 year timeline as one single contiguous unsliced/non-dice timeline pointing to Christ's ministry and his death on the cross 3.5 years after his ministry started with His baptism.

has absolutely nothing at all to do with the 1260 year tribulation period that came after the fall of the Roman empire - described in Dan 7, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13.

You said...…..
"Another detail is that ALL Bible timelines are contiguous."

True. That is irrefutable. Particularly in cases like Daniel 7,8,9 and Rev 11,12,13 with apocalyptic timelines.

this is irrefutable.

Incorrect.

A Messiah was promised in Genesis 3:15 but did not come until 4000 years later.

No timeline is provided in Genesis 3 for the Messiah. Are you not following the point?


That same Messiah was promised to come from a virgin and did not happen for another 3000 years.

No 3000 year timeline was given ... are you not following the point?


I could go on and on

Please don't since you seem to have missed the point about "contiguous timeline".

Here is the example given "again".

In Daniel 9:1-9 we have the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah. That is a timeline prophecy and since all timeline prophecies in the Bible are contiguous that means you can take one - take its starting point - count out the length of the timeline and find the predicting endpoint. Thus Daniel knew that at the time of his writing that since all Bible timelines are contiguous and since the start of Jeremiah's 70 year predicted timeline was already known - the end was also known and was soon.

but I think most e=understand that you are incorrect.....again.

Frankly I would be surprised if most here did not understand the basic concept of a timeline having a start and and end and being contiguous.


Also Daniel 9 says that Messiah WILL BE CUT OFF which did not happen for another 400 years or so.

Good thing too since Daniel 9 gives a 490 year timeline for the coming of the Messiah and then predicts that in the last 7 years of that timeline the Messiah would be cut off in the midst of that 7 year period. It was 483 years (69 weeks of years) from the 457 B.C. start point to the Ad 27 end point when Christ was baptized. The 3.5 years after that (mid way through that 70th week) Christ was cut off.

Bob
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Where in my OP do I say "Daniel 7 says the SDA church is the remnant"?

My focus is on the actual topic of this thread.

Comment #357...………….

YeshuaFan said:
"The Sda interpretation of Daniel, as describing the Middle Ages, and them being the remnant church in t eh wilderness, and especially their Investigative Judgment views are outside orthodoxy".

You said...…..
"Until you read Daniel 7 ".
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

YeshuaFan

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2018
3,003
996
63
Macomb
✟56,324.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
until you read Daniel 7 and see that the "saints" were going to be persecuted for 1260 years sometime after the fall of the pagan Roman empire and until the judgment of Daniel 7:9-10 ended at which time we have ... the second coming.

It is pretty hard for us all to imagine that no Jews got persecuted until the Roman empire fell given that Daniel is writing while Jews are captive in Babylon and given that 70 A.D. comes long before the fall of the pagan roman empire.
Again, its days. not years, as describes last 3.5 years of the great Tribulation under Antichrist yet to happen!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0

YeshuaFan

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2018
3,003
996
63
Macomb
✟56,324.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Comment #357...………….

YeshuaFan said:
"The Sda interpretation of Daniel, as describing the Middle Ages, and them being the remnant church in t eh wilderness, and especially their Investigative Judgment views are outside orthodoxy".

You said...…..
"Until you read Daniel 7 ".
They MUST read EW views back into Daniel, for if they actually accepted what was really being stated, their whole theology falls apart like a deck of cards!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Again, its days. not years, as describes last 3.5 years of the great Tribulation under Antichrist yet to happen!
Daniel 9 -- 70 weeks is "years" so then it is a 490 year timeline in Daniel 9 -- as "seventy weeks".
Basic rule for all apocalyptic timelines - they use "day for year". Just as in Daniel 9 so also in Daniel 7 and 8 ... and also in Rev 11, and 12, and 13.

It is a rule that holds true for all apocalyptic timelines just as the "all timelines contiguous" rule holds true for all of them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
BobRyan said:
Where in my OP do I say "Daniel 7 says the SDA church is the remnant"?

My focus is on the actual topic of this thread.

Comment #357...………….

YeshuaFan said:
"The Sda interpretation of Daniel, as describing the Middle Ages, and them being the remnant church in t eh wilderness, and especially their Investigative Judgment views are outside orthodoxy".

You said...…..
"Until you read Daniel 7 ".

True - because as all protestant reformers freely admitted - Daniel 7 describes 4 world empires including the fall of the pagan Roman empire - which happens long after the destruction of Jerusalem and so we have 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints that happened in real history - predicted in the 1260 year timeline of Daniel 7.

Speaking with Him is the same as talking to either Mormons or JW at your door!

That all protestant reformers would be tossed aside as just so many JW's and Mormons would probably have been a surprise to them.

The point remains... ad hominem remarks against it not withstanding.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
BobRyan said:
Where in my OP do I say "Daniel 7 says the SDA church is the remnant"?

My focus is on the actual topic of this thread.



True - because as all protestant reformers freely admitted - Daniel 7 describes 4 world empires including the fall of the pagan Roman empire - which happens long after the destruction of Jerusalem and so we have 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints that happened in real history - predicted in the 1260 year timeline of Daniel 7.



That all protestant reformers would be tossed aside as just so many JW's and Mormons would probably have been a surprise to them.

The point remains... ad hominem remarks against it not withstanding.

There is NO pre-advent Judgment for Christians!
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Daniel 9 -- 70 weeks is "years" so then it is a 490 year timeline in Daniel 9 -- as "seventy weeks".
Basic rule for all apocalyptic timelines - they use "day for year". Just as in Daniel 9 so also in Daniel 7 and 8 ... and also in Rev 11, and 12, and 13.

It is a rule that holds true for all apocalyptic timelines just as the "all timelines contiguous" rule holds true for all of them.

Scripture describes the next prophetic event as the Appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13...…….
“Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,”

2 Tim. 4:8...………..
“Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.”

Paul wrote to Timothy,

1 Tim. 6:11-15...………...
“...keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,”

And then we have this magnificent verse:


2 Tim. 4:1...…….
“I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:”

This is stunning. Paul mentions judgment:

a) for the living and the dead (two different groups)
b) at His appearing and His kingdom (two different times)

This may be the clearest distinction between the rapture and the second coming. The living are those who are born again, even if they are “asleep in Jesus,” or dead in Christ. The Living are judged at the Judgment seat of Christ, where Jesus will offer rewards based on our works.

Scripture puts the harpazo of the Church before the time of Jacob’s Trouble. The rapture is how the Lord removes His body from the earth prior to Daniel’s 70th week, because the Church can't be part of the time of Jacob's Trouble.

Now WHY is there discussion on IF there is a Rapture and when it takes place???????

A lot of the misunderstanding around the timing of the rapture comes from an evil root: replacement theology. This satanic doctrine falsely teaches that the Church has replaced Israel—a lie from the father of lies which results in (or at least supports) deception around the rapture. I believe the confusion or disagreement can be decreased or eliminated when we understand the purpose of the Church and grasp the distinctions between the Church and Israel.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
And of course the Protestant Reformers were historicist.

Another detail is that ALL Bible timelines are contiguous.

that means the 70 years of Jeremiah that Daniel references in Daniel 9:1-10 are all one timeline -- no gaps.

And it means that the 70 weeks of years that Daniel references in that same chapter - a 490 year timeline are also contiguous - no eisegetical insert of a gap of "undefined time" into the middle of the timeline.

So then pre-mill post trib with all that 490 year timeline as one single contiguous unsliced/non-dice timeline pointing to Christ's ministry and his death on the cross 3.5 years after his ministry started with His baptism.

has absolutely nothing at all to do with the 1260 year tribulation period that came after the fall of the Roman empire - described in Dan 7, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13.



True. That is irrefutable. Particularly in cases like Daniel 7,8,9 and Rev 11,12,13 with apocalyptic timelines.

this is irrefutable.



No timeline is provided in Genesis 3 for the Messiah. Are you not following the point?




No 3000 year timeline was given ... are you not following the point?




Please don't since you seem to have missed the point about "contiguous timeline".

Here is the example given "again".

In Daniel 9:1-9 we have the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah. That is a timeline prophecy and since all timeline prophecies in the Bible are contiguous that means you can take one - take its starting point - count out the length of the timeline and find the predicting endpoint. Thus Daniel knew that at the time of his writing that since all Bible timelines are contiguous and since the start of Jeremiah's 70 year predicted timeline was already known - the end was also known and was soon.



Frankly I would be surprised if most here did not understand the basic concept of a timeline having a start and and end and being contiguous.




Good thing too since Daniel 9 gives a 490 year timeline for the coming of the Messiah and then predicts that in the last 7 years of that timeline the Messiah would be cut off in the midst of that 7 year period. It was 483 years (69 weeks of years) from the 457 B.C. start point to the Ad 27 end point when Christ was baptized. The 3.5 years after that (mid way through that 70th week) Christ was cut off.

Bob

NOPE!

Daniel’s 70th week is for Israel and has a specific purpose. Very clearly, the angel Gabriel revealed this to the prophet Daniel:

Daniel 9:24...………..
“Seventy weeks are determined for your people [Israel] and for your holy city [Jerusalem] To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.”

The first sixty-nine weeks were fulfilled 2000 years ago. The last one, the seventieth, and where we get the phrase “Daniel's 70th week,” remains. The Church wasn't part of the first sixty-nine and according to Scripture, won't be part of the last one.

When we read read Daniel 9:24-27 we can not help but notice that the first segment is seven "sevens" and sixty two "sevens". Gabriel links these two together and so do I.
IF the whole thing in contiguous Why didn’t Gabriel just say sixty nine "sevens"?

Now instead of believing Ellen WHite, think for your self.

At the end of the sixty nine "sevens" we have Messiah. Let’s just keep it simple. There was a decree to rebuild Jerusalem, then over the course of a period of time which included 483 years on this prophetic timetable, Messiah did appear. The sixty nine "sevens" are sevens of years as the background of the seventy years prophesied by Jeremiah makes perfect sense.

There is a gap in between the sixty nine weeks and the seventieth week.

Nowhere does the prophecy of Daniel state or even assume that they are contiguous.
 
Upvote 0