How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?
- Thread starter redleghunter
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Good Day, fhansen
But the question is the same...
How does a person who loves his sin and hates the light become a light lover?
What does it take, what is the cause?
I do not know that I said overridden.... What is you take on Jonha was he overridden?
In Him,
Bill
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- Aug 21, 2003
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Good Day,
He did say no and ran from God... what good did that do him. Clearly God had no respect for his decision why do you think that is?
Spit out of the belly of the whale standing on the beach... Go as he was commanded or jump back in the water... which do you think represented he greatest desire, for he had no choice but to choose that.
I opened another thread in on the Lover of light question...
In Him,
Bill
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fhansen
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Well, to be physically coerced is rather a bit different than having one's will changed internally-and not at all the pattern for the rest of us. Prophets such as Jonah are set aside, treated as they are for a specific purpose. However, I agree that God shows us a light, via grace, of something better. But we can remain obstinate.
If this whole drama of the Fall and the resulting life we have in this world now is all about just showing certain people something better in the end, something more attractive, then we really wouldn't need Jonah, or any of the rest of God's revelation, a progressive revelation through which He worked with and cultivated a people, ultimately to continue His cultivation in a new way for the entire world. So that even then, after the advent of Christ, we sort of recapitulate within ourselves the history of salvation that God has wrought in His world, meaning that our personal experience is also a progressive work, a journey. A journey of the will of man being patiently molded into rectitude.
Otherwise, just show man the light! Reveal to man God's face, and all will bow to the ultimate Good without hesitation. Instead God wants it to be a journey, a process, of change, of increasingly willing rightly, beginning with faith, without "seeing" fully, so that we participate, we "own" our justice as we partner with Him in achieving it.
See? God likes us! And wants the best for us! To put it mildly. And wants the best for all. And BTW I don't believe that anyone is so sold out, so sure of themselves and their faith and their salvation in this life, so in love with God with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, as to be able to honestly insist that they're 100% certain that they're numbered among the elect.
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We are talking about the nonbeliever being totally depraved, while Paul in Romans is addressing Christians.
“Christ died for the ungodly” and every mature adult start out ungodly? Does that not mean Christ died for every nonbelieving sinner, because it does not say: Christ died for “some” ungodly? Yes, it goes on to talk about “us” but we were all part of the ungodly.
Again after verse 7 Paul is addressing Christians, so where is the total depravity?
I am not suggesting Adam and Eve were not the first humans to sin and thus sin became part of the necessary inevitable agenda of all mature adults.
New Born and even unborn children can physically die without sinning, so what death is being referred to here if not physical death?
Physical death and spiritual death both help the willing nonbeliever to become a believer, unfortunately, so they are both a part of God’s plan (will), yet not God’s desire.
It does not say all die because Adam and Eve sinned, but because “all sin” and I would translate that “all” in this passage to mean all mature adults and not include new born babies.
Adam and Eve were human’s best all human representatives and they sinned before fulfilling their earthly objective. This suggest we will all need the help of sinning and death being inevitable to fulfill our earthly objective and that is one thing that came out of Adam and Eve’s sinning.
All mature adults’ sin and are thus in condemnation of judgement. Condemnation and death reigning seem to be used convey the same idea, just as Justification and life reigning seem to convey the same idea. All mature adults were under condemnation and death, but Christ gives life and justification after their being condemned and dead (spiritually dead) to some.
Where is this saying everyone starts out totally depraved?
Do you really interpret this to mean: unborn babies were made sinners?
“Many” does not mean everyone, so who are the many? The “many” made righteous, became the elect for some reason or was it arbitrary and if there is some reason what is the reason?
Who are the many made sinners or is that everyone including the unborn child?
The many made sinners, I see from the context being those which sinned and that is because Adam and Eve sinned, but it is still the sinner’s personal fault for sinning.
Physical death is separation of the soul and spirit from the body, which is the way Christians get to go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff, so is death bad in and of itself?
Spiritual death is when our sinning separates us from God, but part of experiencing that separation and the burden it creates helps willing individuals to humbly accept God’s pure sacrificial charity in the form of forgiveness.
God does not have to go through anything to be reconciled to man, but man has to change to be reconciled to God.
Let me ask you this:
Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey God forever (the Garden) or be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God depended on your just accepting God’s charity in the form of forgiveness (where you are today)?
Adam and Eve showed themselves and all of us why the Garden situation is a lousy place to fulfill your earthly objective.
Is knowledge itself “bad”?
The tree of Life is in heaven and we just spend a short time here on earth.
Wisdom is good to have and learning can help us.
If you realize you stand condemned before God would that help you humbly accept God’s charity as pure undeserved charity in the form of forgiveness?
Is God of the scripture not completely, just which would be completely fair? That is what I see.
We are only cut off from the tree of life for a very short period of time, allowing death to help us.
All mature adults do sin so they will have unforgiven sins, but if they humbly accept God’s forgiveness as pure charity do they still have unforgiven sins?
The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.
This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).
God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.
If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.
Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.
God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).
What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:
There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)
This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).
An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).
This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.
Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.
All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).
If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.
That is an introduction to a huge topic.
There was no way the son could “work off” his rebellious severe disobedience, the son is looking for pure undeserved charity from his father so he can just have some kind of undeserved life.
Actually, it is talking about “sin” and as David said his sins are really against God. Deut. 24:16 has nothing to do with “affairs of men to men” but “sin” which is always man to God.
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You say: “Sin came as the result of, 'many died by the trespass of the one man'”, but the Bible does not say that, but does say: “…death came to all people, because all sinned—”
Ro. 5:15 Because Adam and Eve sinned, physical death had to come into the world, but physical death can help some to fulfill their earthly objective, so is physical death bad in and of itself? This could also be referring to being separated (death) from God because of sin (it says many and not all), but this also helps the nonbeliever to become a believer because of the pain and burden of hurting others in the past and not have God to forgive.
Ro. 5:16 Again being accountable in a condemning state of judgement helps the nonbelieving sinner to humbly accept God’s pure charity of forgiveness.
Ro, 5:17 Yes again, death came as the result of Adam and Eve sinning, but from their example we know the Garden situation without inevitable death is a lousy place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.
Ro. 5:18 Yes, because of Adam’s sin all humans will be condemned to physical death, but that is only bad for the people who are not going to heaven. Death is the way Christian get to go home.
Ro. 5:19 The fact that the word “many” is used and not “all” suggest Adam’s sinning was not past down at conception to all people making even unborn babies’ sinners. The word “many” is used for both the sinners and those made righteous, so who and why did some become sinners and some become righteous? Those who do sin become sinners and those who accept God’s charity become righteous by God.
Scripture tells us that even with Adam and Eve being made very good and only one way to disobey, they under their own ability and with their nature disobeyed (sinned).
“All” as you know can be referring to a limited group: those being addressed in the letter, the masses, the elect, all Jews, all mature adults and when talking about “all will physically die” seems to be addressing all humans. How did you come to the conclusion “all” has to refer to all humans?
All mature adults do sin, but unborn children do not sin.
Again, how did you conclude beyond a shadow of doubt “all” means every human including the unborn?
Adam and Eve were made “very good” which is not “perfect” like Christ is perfect, but by God’s standard would most likely be as good as you could make a human. They were raised (or programmed) to adulthood by the very best parent (God) and yet they sinned. So if the very best all human beings with only one way to sinned did sin, then all mature adults with now a vast number of ways to sin will sin. Man on his own does not have the power (the Holy Spirit) and Love within himself not to sin (Adam and Eve showed us that).
Again, we can go through a word study of “all”, but do you believe “all” always means every human?
If you read this carefully in the Hebrew you will see “shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me” not referring to David being a sinner, but his mother sinning with his conception.
I would use this explanation:
by William P. Murray, Jr.
Psalm 51:5 - "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." KJV
This is a Hebrew poetic parallelism, with the second line of the verse saying the same thing as the first line in a slightly different way. The first verb, of which David is the subject, is in the Pulal tense (as is "made" in # Job 15:7 ), which is an idiom used to refer to creation or origins, and is the 'passive' form of Polel ("formed": # Ps 90:2 Pro 26:10 ). TWOT, #623, 1:270.
The subject of this verse is NOT the state or constitution of David's nature as a sinner at, or before, his birth. The subject is, as the verse clearly states, the 'circumstances' of his conception- the sexual union which produced him was an act of sin, and addresses the unrighteousness of his mother's act, not anything (such as a sin nature) inherent within himself. (The NIV's version of this verse is an INTERPRETATION, not a translation: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.")
David had two half-sisters (Zeruiah, Abigail).....:
1CHR 2:13-16 13 “And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third, 14 Nethaneel the fourth, Raddai the fifth, 15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh: 16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three. 17 And Abigail bare Amasa: and the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmeelite.”
....and the father of David's half-sisters was not Jesse, but Nahash:
2Sam 17:25 “And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.”
Nahash, the father of Zeruiah and Abigal, David's half-sisters, was an Ammonite king:
1Sam 11:1 “Then Nahash the Ammonite came up, and encamped against Jabeshgilead: and all the men of Jabesh said unto Nahash, Make a covenant with us, and we will serve thee.”
1Sam 12:12 “And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.”
David's father was Jesse, not Nahash. Zeruiah and Abigal were David's half-sisters through his mother's previous marriage to Nahash. This would also help explain why Nahash showed kindness to David, perhaps out of respect for David's mother, Nahash’s former wife and the mother of two of Nahash's children.
2Sam 10:2 “Then said David, I will shew kindness unto Hanun the son of Nahash, as his father shewed kindness unto me. And David sent to comfort him by the hand of his servants for his father. And David's servants came into the land of the children of Ammon.”
David's mother was most likely the second wife of Jesse, the first wife being the mother of David's half-brothers. Jesse’s first wife's standing before the 'righteousness of the law', (her not having been married to, or the concubine of, a heathen king, as was David’s mother), would have been superior to that of David's mother, and explains why David's half-brothers, Jesse's other sons, would have felt they were superior to David, and why he would be accused of being prideful, for thinking he was as good as them....
1Sam 17:28-30 28 “And Eliab his eldest brother heard when he spake unto the men; and Eliab's anger was kindled against David, and he said, Why camest thou down hither? and with whom hast thou left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know thy pride, and the naughtiness of thine heart; for thou art come down that thou mightest see the battle. 29 And David said, What have I now done? Is there not a cause? 30 And he turned from him toward another, and spake after the same manner: and the people answered him again after the former manner.”
...and why David was not considered, by his father Jesse, as 'true' a son as his half-brothers. Samuel had called Jesse and his sons, and thus expected 'all' his sons, to the sacrifice (1Sam 16:5,11). Jesse, having been told to bring 'his sons' by a prophet of the Lord everyone feared (1Sam 16:4), was confident he had obeyed the prophet, even knowing he did not bring David....
1Sam 16:11 “And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.”
....which would be consistent with God's sometimes choosing that which men esteemed as worthless (the 'least') to be the greatest: (Gideon- Jud 6:15; King Saul- 1Sam 9:21; Jesus- Mt 2:6, Lk 9:48)
David's mother was apparently a Jewish woman, because 'no Ammonite shall enter the congregation of the Lord to the 10th generation’ (Deu 23:3), and yet in PS 86:16 and PS 116:16, David refers to himself as "the son of thy handmaid", which would seem to testify to his mother's relationship with the Lord. David's mother was, in the eyes of Jewish law, considered 'defiled' by her previous relationship to an Ammonite.
Nu 25:1,2; De 7:3,4; 1ki 11:2-4, Ezr 9:2; Ne 13:23,25; 2Co 6:14-17
I would also say in addition:
A. The mechanism for the transmission of inherited sin is false:
Spiritual consequences of sin cannot be transmitted from father to son but only falls on the one who committed the act: Ezek 18:1-4; 18-20; Jer 32:29-30
1. Exodus 32:3133 In this passage, Moses wanted to receive the punishment for someone else's sin. In verse 33, the one who sinned is removed from the book, not the one whose parents have sinned.
We will be judged only by our own actions: Mt 12:36-37; Rom 2:6; 2 Cor 5:10; 1 Pe 1:17
Isa 59:1-2, "Your sins have separated you from your God" not Adams
Sin is committed by individually breaking God's law: 1 Jn 3:4 (Infants have done nothing)
Where is one Bible verse that says we will be condemned for sin other than our own?
B. Unsaved and unregenerate men are capable of doing good and have freewill:
Gentiles do by nature the good things of the law: Rom 2:14-16
Cornelius was devout, feared God, righteous, Acts 10:1-4, 22 yet unsaved: 11:14
Man has a freewill and can choose to do good or evil: Josh 24:15 "Choose this day..."
C. God requires man to act and do something to be saved...infants can't act or do
"Unless you repent you will perish": Lk 13:3
"Save yourselves": Acts 2:40 KJV
"Repent and be baptized every one of you for forgiveness of sins": Acts 2:38
Why are we told to "work out our own salvation": Phil 2:12
The spoken and written gospel message is God's power for salvation: Rom 1:16; 1 cor 1:18
D. The words used to describe salvation refute inherited sin:
These words imply that we, individually, were once in God's grace at conception and birth
Justification - Romans 5:18
A court term; a legal word
Addresses the subject of our guilt before God
Reconciliation - Romans 5:6-11; Col 1:14,20,21
A word dealing with social intercourse; human relations; to make friendly again, payment of a price to recover from the power of another, a restoration to favor.
Addresses the subject of our being estranged from God
Redemption - Colossians 1:13-14
to buy back; A slavery term; human commerce; purchasing one's freedom; a ransom
Addresses the subject of our slavery to sin
"Regenerate"
to generate again, renewed, restored
E. The Bible describes infants are pure and holy:
Why would Jesus use infants as a model for all believers to imitate in character if they were "utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil"? Mt 18:1-3; 19:13-14
Paul also used infants as a model of purity for Christians to follow: 1 Cor 14:20
Paul states that he was once spiritually alive but then he sinned & died/was killed: Rom 7:9-11
God said that the king of Tyrus was "blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." Ezek 28:15
"God made men upright but they sought devices" Eccl 7:29 (plural can't refer only to Adam)
Newborns do not know the difference between good and evil
God allowed the children to enter Canaan but not the parents: "your little ones who...have no knowledge of good and evil shall enter". Deut 1:34-39
Jesus "Before He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good" Isa 7:15-16
Jer 19:2-6 human sacrifices of children to Baal is called the "blood of the innocent"
If newborns do not know "good or evil" yet the Bible says , "Your sins have separated you from your God" (Isa 59:1-2) then newborns must be born united with God.
Apostle Paul: Rom 7:9-11
"Once alive"
"sin killed me"
King of Tyre: Ezek 28:15
"Blameless from creation"
"until sin found in him"
All men: Eccl 7:29
God made men upright
They sought out devices
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