Is all that is required for salvation is believing in Christ and Him crucified?

ladodgers6 · Jan 9, 2019

Jason0047 said:
God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). The sacrifice is imputed to us also if we obey (See again: 1 John 1:7, and Hebrews 5:9). While Christ's righteousness is imputed to us by faith, we also have to continue in the faith by putting forth works of faith to demonstrate or show our faith (just like Abraham did). In fact, Hebrews 11 is an illustration of how the great men of God's faith leads to works of faith. You cannot have one without the other. Nowhere does the Bible teach you can sin and still be saved on some level. If a believer sins, they need to confess their sin to be forgiven again (See 1 John 1:9). They also have to forsake their sin by walking in the light (See 1 John 1:7). For that person who says they know the Lord and does not keep his commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. So how can we be righteous? 1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous. 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
"

Are you suggesting that believers maintain their Justification through their own works?

ladodgers6 · Jan 9, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Indeed.

I 100% agree with this. Everyone under the Mosaic Law is obligated to provide perfect righteousness without a single blemish of sin. Matt. 5:20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

The demands of the Law requirements are so high, that our righteousness has to exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees. Christ is preaching Law here, to bring knowledge of the impossibility to accomplish such a feat. Christ is using the Law to point sinners to himself for Redemption! The only place for sinners, and believers to stand before God!

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 9, 2019

Even in earthly courts, after a pardon is granted, or "not guilty" determined ,
no more needs to be done for those crimes accounted for. No more work need be done.

Then, on earth as in heaven,
if another crime is committed,
if the BLOOD OF JESUS is trampled underfoot, transgressing against the commandments without repentance after having tasted of the freedom of Jesus' Pardon,

then there's another trial , on earthly terms,
but there's no more (any) sacrifice for sin, on heavenly terms - the judgment this time, as written in God's Word, is final and just - no more eternal life possible.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 9, 2019

ladodgers6 said:
Matt. 5:20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Scripture is truth. Yet it seems forgotten that even if someone is not under the law, their righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, or you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

So no one, no one under the law, and no one not under the law, can be helped by this >>

ladodgers6 said:
I 100% agree with this. Everyone under the Mosaic Law is obligated to provide perfect righteousness without a single blemish of sin.

Something else is required.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2019

ladodgers6 said:
Are you suggesting that believers maintain their Justification through their own works?

Not I. James does (See James 2:24).

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 9, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Not I. James does (See James 2:24).

Maybe a Difference in semantics - note that after Avraham was justified, he did not have to continue justifying his faith (as far as we know) to be saved again. (or did he?)
He walked as a man in the LIGHT, circumcised of heart, declared justified by Yahweh - the Judge, so He Knows.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2019

ladodgers6 said:
I 100% agree with this. Everyone under the Mosaic Law is obligated to provide perfect righteousness without a single blemish of sin. Matt. 5:20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

The demands of the Law requirement are so high, that our righteousness has to exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees. Christ is preaching Law here, to bring knowledge of the impossibility to accomplish such feat. Christ is using the Law to point sinners to himself for Redemption! The only place for sinners, and believers to stand before God!

No. You do not agree with my point. I believe God's grace (by faith) is how we are initially and ultimately saved, and that works of faith is the next step in the salvation process. This means you are against works of faith as a part of salvation. The alternative to good works of faith is sin. There is no other option. For do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Maybe a Difference in semantics - note that after Avraham was justified, he did not have to continue justifying his faith (as far as we know) to be saved again. (or did he?)
He walked as a man in the LIGHT, circumcised of heart, declared justified by Yahweh - the Judge, so He Knows.

Works are something you do your whole life. Do you stop loving others? Loving others involves work.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 9, 2019

Jason0047 said:
For do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Actually, yes. He stopped sinning. He did not continue sinning. Nothing to indicate Yahweh condemned King David, or ever changed Yahweh's Purpose for King David.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 9, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Works are something you do your whole life.

Perhaps, perhaps not. "Cease" from your own works comes to mind. "Rest" or "Enter His Rest" also. Although yes , Jesus continued to work as His Father worked. We should also. Yet it was not as if, or is not as if, to be re-justified, or justified again. We don't strive to be re- "born again" after being born again.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2019

ladodgers6 said:
I beg to differ. You are assuming that sinners and believers can be justified by works before God; giving them something to boast about. So let's read Romans 4:2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

No. Paul is talking about Works Alone Salvationism or Law Alone Salvationism that does not include God's grace. If you read my previous post to you, I pointed out how Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism." I provided verses to show you this fact. Please go back and check them out.

You said:
So you have a dilemma here. You suggested that Abraham was justified by works before God. So please explain this?

Romans 4:2 is talking about being wrongfully justified by "Works Alone" without God's grace through faith. Again, Paul is fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" because the Jews were trying to tell Christians that they needed to first be circumcised in order to be saved. Both in the OT and NT, a person needs to have faith in the Lord to be saved. Then works of faith (whereby one is justified) follows (See James 2:24).

You said:
There is also another passage that presents a problem for you.

Titus 3:5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Again, this is dealing with "Works Alone Salvationism" that does include God's mercy and grace through faith. The Pharisees had turned salvation into a form of works that ignored God's grace. In Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42, Jesus says the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy.

If you were to skip back to Titus 2:11-12, it says that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

Titus 1:16 says that you can deny God by a lack of works. So you have to read the Bible in light of other verses and not just those verses you prefer to suit a belief that is more comforting.

You said:
Who saves who here? He (SAVED) us! (Past Tense)

The Bible talks about salvation in several tenses actually. It speaks of salvation in past, present, and future tenses. You can find these by doing a simple Google search.

In Reformed Theology,

What you believe is nothing new to me. I have argued against Calvinism and Non-Calvinistic Eternal Security Proponents and Free Will Baptist Beliefs for many years now. Such beliefs are not only unscriptural, but I personally believe they are immoral (no offense of course). Belief Alone-ism is bad enough (IMO), but Calvinism takes it to an entirely whole another level by attacking the good character of God by saying it is God's fault as for the reason why some are not saved.

You said:
when we say, By Faith Alone! Its shorthand for the Active/Passive Obedience of Christ. And His Atonement, Burial, Resurrection! It's all about Christ and His works!

I am already aware that many believe this. But it is not in the Bible. Nowhere does it teach that you can sin and still be saved by having a belief on Jesus Christ. In order for a plan of salvation like that to work, God would have to agree with sin. But God is holy and He cannot agree with a believer's thinking that they can sin and still be saved.

You said:
Now, I don't know if you have read my previous posts. In Reformed Theology we do not deny the good works of the believer. We teach and believe that works of the believer flows from our Justification in Christ Alone, received through faith Alone! I also provided Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? Paul stated that the Gospel is not a license to sin.

This is a smokescreen. I have heard this song and dance many times before. You do not truly believe that a Christian will predominantly live righteously. Most in the Eternal Security camp believe that no Christian can overcome sin in this life. Again, I challenge you with a question to prove my case. Do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder? Yes, or no? If you say "Yes" then you are teaching others that they can be like a King David and sin and still be saved, too. If this is the case, then you are not teaching the necessity of a changed life and the upholding of a standard of morality (good works).

You said:
But understanding Law & Gospel in relation to Justification by Faith Alone is key to understanding Scripture. Why? Because you have Law passages (Imperatives/Commands) and Gospel passages (Indicatives/Promises).

You are confusing the Law of Moses with the commandments given to us by Jesus and His followers. They are not the same contracts or covenants. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

You said:
If one doesn't understand the plight of the sinner before a Holy God. Then the Gospel is going to get perverted; like Paul wared the Galatians about.

Why was it being perverted? See Galatians 5:2.

You said:
So am I denying the works of the believer? Certainly not, the third use of the Law; is a guide for Christian living. The difference now than before, is that the curse of the Law has been reversed in Christ.

Justification is not Sanctification. God saves us in both.

Our works as sinners or believers will never meet the Law demands for perfect righteousness. So by trying to establish your own, you become ignorant of the righteousness of God that He gives FREELY to the 'UNGODLY' who believe he justifies the 'UNGODLY' (Romans 4:5-6).

This is why you do not believe in righteousness because you just said "Our works as sinners." Romans 4:5-6 is not a present tense statement of God justifying a person who is currently living ungodly. You really have to stretch the meaning of that verse beyond the context and beyond other parts of the Bible to make that false line of thinking work. Paul is talking about how they used to be ungodly. In Ephesians 2:2-3, Colossians 3:6-7, 1 Corinthians 6:11, Paul says we used to be sinners.

You said:
And I leave you with this:

Romans 10:1Brothers,a my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

This was spoken to Israel. You conveniently left out the word "Israel" in that verse. Here is the full verse in what it says:

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Romans 10:1).

I really hope you address the passages I have provided, so that you may gain the knowledge about the righteousness of God in Christ!

Nothing you said was not anything new that I have not heard before a dozen times over. You are failing to understand that Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which means that he was fighting against Law Alone Salvationism that did not make God's grace the foundation of the faith).

Anyways, may God's goodness shine upon you even if we disagree.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Perhaps, perhaps not. "Cease" from your own works comes to mind. "Rest" or "Enter His Rest" also. Although yes , Jesus continued to work as His Father worked. We should also. Yet it was not as if, or is not as if, to be re-justified, or justified again. We don't strive to be re- "born again" after being born again.

Hebrews 4:10 is a statement made so as to attack the false Pharisee religion that taught Works Alone Salvationism (Without God's grace). Every believer must first cease from their work by coming to Christ for initial and ultimate salvation. From that point on we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Also, Hebrews 4:10 needs to be read with Hebrews 4:11 that says this:

"Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Perhaps, perhaps not. "Cease" from your own works comes to mind. "Rest" or "Enter His Rest" also. Although yes , Jesus continued to work as His Father worked. We should also. Yet it was not as if, or is not as if, to be re-justified, or justified again. We don't strive to be re- "born again" after being born again.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32), and James 5:19-20 proves that a believer can go from a saved state, then to a lost state, and then come back to a saved state again.

Danthemailman · Jan 9, 2019

Oldmantook said:
If the shoe fits....I showed you precisely where you commit logical fallacies and suggested you brush up on the study of logic. If you choose not to - your prerogative.

Actually, I precisely showed you where you commit logical fallacies and exposed your "sugar coated double talk."

You misstate my position. I never wrote works is the cause of salvation. Works are indeed the fruit of salvation. That is why works in the life of the believer are requisite. No fruit means no salvation. Works are the evidence of genuine faith. It does not mean that the person was never saved. Only that his/her faith did not persevere and became a dead faith as James asserts.

More sugar coated double talk and "type 2 works salvation." James said NOTHING about faith "becoming" a dead faith as if it was alive at first and then afterwards became a dead faith. It was dead from the start.

*In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works or that salvation is "maintained" by works either. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! :oldthumbsup:

One is justified by works because works are the demonstration of saving faith. James questioned if you have faith where is your works? One cannot possess just a "cognitive" faith. One cannot say that "I was saved on a certain day" - and have no works to show for it.

James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). We are "accounted as righteous" by faith and "shown to be righteous by works." It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:

Works is the substance of faith, therefore one cannot discount works.

Works are the fruit of faith, but not the essence of faith. Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Faith is faith and works are works.

We agree that works is the fruit. No fruit is the evidence of no faith. I assume you would say that no fruit is the evidence that the person was never a believer. I say that the person was indeed a believer because HE HAD FAITH (which is what you emphasize) to begin with but over the course of his life demonstrated no works and thus his faith became dead.

Faith is either alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-8) or else it's dead. Living faith produces works (all genuine believers are fruitful, though not all are equally fruitful) and a mere "said" faith that produces no works at all is not a living faith (never was), but is an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

I never wrote nor implied that a living faith is dead until it produces works.

Yet you teach that faith dies later based on a lack of works to keep it alive. You start out well then end up in a ditch.

A living faith results upon being regenerated by the spirit upon repentance and the trusting in Jesus' blood for the cleansing of one's sins.

Amen!

That living faith however can become dead upon no longer believing, no longer obeying. It demonstrates that he no longer has works that demonstrate repentant faith. He had saving faith because faith bestowed by God is what saves isn't it? He then lost his faith/dead faith when he failed to produce works in his life that demonstrated continued faith. That is why we are commanded to persevere and continue in the faith. It is indeed simple.

More "type 2 works salvation." Saving faith in Christ continues and is not some shallow temporary belief that has no root produces no fruit and withers away. You seem to think it's all about YOU pulling yourself by your own bootstraps and keeping yourself saved. Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. Philippians 1:6 - being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

And so Jesus is mistaken to judge the 7 Churches in Revelation based on their works, or lack thereof. No thanks, I'd rather heed the warnings of Jesus.

Jesus is not mistaken and Jesus is also not promoting "type 2 works salvation," as you are.

Quite simple really. Belief or rather BELIEVING is required for salvation. If you knew the Greek or even bothered to open an interlinear, you would discover that "belief" is often times parsed as a present tense verb. Thus in verses like Jn 3:16, God so loved the world...that whoever is "believing" in Him should not perish.... Ongoing belief is necessary for eternal life.

Your arrogance is not helping your case. I understand that "believing" is not some shallow, temporary belief and is ongoing.

One can initially believe and receive eternal life but later on, for whatever reason no longer believe and consequently no longer possess eternal life.

Only in your delusional world of "type 2 works salvation." John 5:24 - “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Salvation is not probation. Everlasting life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Obedience is the evidence that one believes.

Amen!

In Jn 3:36 he who believes has eternal life (True) as nothing else is required but trusting upon the cleansing blood of Christ. However, the verse does not end there as the additional clause states BUT he WHO DOES NOT OBEY shall not see life.... One can believe BUT not obey.

"Does not obey the Son" is not mean as an additional clause to believing. Your "type 2 works salvation" fallacy continues to blind you from the truth. *Once again, the King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is "apeitheo" and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

Belief results in salvation BUT disobedience results in the loss of salvation. And that is precisely why both belief and obedience are required for salvation.

False and this is precisely what I mean by "sugar coated double talk." One minute you say that works are not the cause of salvation and that we are saved through faith out of one side of your mouth, then out of the other side of your mouth you say that we are saved by BOTH faith and obedience/works.

So how do you explain Rom 8:13? You have ignored it. If you or I as a Christian, live according to the flesh, will we die, or was Paul lying?

To live according to the flesh is to be ruled and controlled by the flesh. Because of Christ’s saving work on our behalf, the sinful flesh no longer reigns over believers. I see that you ignored Romans 8:8-11 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of through His Spirit who dwells in you. Verse 14 - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Again, I never wrote that works is the cause of salvation; instead it should be the result. However what "should be" is not always the case since believers always have the choice to disobey God. I already wrote above what the BUT means. Belief results in being saved; works/obedience results in continuing to be saved.

There it is again. "Type 2 works salvation."

Answer me this simple question if you will? If you disobey God by taking the mark of the beast, will you still be saved? Yes or No??

NO.

Did you read the original Greek? Why do you rely on English translations without doing your due diligence and examining the original text for yourself? If you even bothered to do so, you would discover that this verse contains two different words - pisteuōn which means believing and apeithōn which means disobeying. The word apeithōn is a compound word. The prefix a means "not" and the verb peithōn means "obeying" when used in the active sense - or "to be persuaded" when used in the passive sense. In Jn 3:36, the verb is parsed in the active present tense, so "disobey" would be the correct literal translation.

*Once again, the King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is "apeitheo" and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

In John 3:18, we read - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because (he did not produce enough obedience? NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Yes believers are capable of obeying God because they are regenerated/saved. HOWEVER you can always choose to disobey God can't you? Or, are you sinless and perfect? What do you suppose happens if you sow to the flesh?

Believers are not sinless and perfect and are capable of acts of disobedience, however, those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9,10). The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Jesus would judge you and me on our belief and continued obedience. Obedience demonstrates saving faith and without continued obedience, one is not assured of salvation.

So how much continued obedience does it take to assure salvation? It's obvious that you are not trusting in Jesus Christ ALONE for salvation but are also trusting in your obedience/works for salvation.

Otherwise, you would not be continuing with your silly charade.

Again you posit a false dilemma fallacy. It is not either Christ alone or works.

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. Your false dilemma results in Christ + works = salvation.

Salvation is described in Scripture as having past, present and future tenses. Faith in Christ alone results in past or initial salvation.

The 3 tenses are justification, ongoing sanctification and glorification. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works, yet you are trusting in your works to complete your salvation.

Present and future salvation depend upon our continued obedience. The belief in Christ and our continued obedience is required for salvation.

Your true colors are obvious -- "type 2 works salvation."

Neither am I. The germane question is: Are we walking in darkness (1 Jn 1:6)? Or are we walking in the light (1 Jn 1:7)?

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is connected to children of the devil.

We always have the CHOICE whether to practice righteousness or to practice sinning. Unbelievers have no choice but to practice sin since they are unregenerated.

John did not say that some who are born of God practice sinning and some do not. Instead, he said in 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. *So as we clearly see in 1 John 3:9-10, those who are born of God/children of God practice righteousness and not sin.

Do you suppose the prodigal son had the choice to practice sin or practice righteousness? What did he choose to do? What happened to him?

To practice sin is to continue in sin as a willful, habitual lifestyle without goal or effort to stop. The prodigal son stumbled and fell, yet he came to his senses and did not continue in that sin. Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, but the wicked shall fall by calamity.

As a result, Jesus stated he was DEAD. Jesus stated he was made alive AGAIN. Just how do you suppose he was made alive AGAIN? I'll let you wrestle with that one.

In this parable, some may argue that being made "alive again" foreshadows the "born again" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. People in the NOSAS camp interpret this parable as the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation).

*I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NAS). I'll let you wrestle with that. In the end, the prodigal son humbled himself and came to his senses.

Danthemailman · Jan 9, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Maybe a Difference in semantics - note that after Abraham was justified, he did not have to continue justifying his faith (as far as we know) to be saved again.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:

Pete smith · Jan 9, 2019

Oldmantook said:
Apparently you don't comprehend the Law at all. While the 10 Commandments are indeed part of the OT Law; they also exceed the OT Law as they also represent the moral law - which surpasses both culture and time as the moral law is universal in scope. So today we still obey the moral law such as not lying, coveting etc. but we are no longer bound by the dictates of the ceremonial law such as ritual sacrifice since Jesus it the one-time sacrifice for all. Your failure to distinguish between the moral law and ritual law leads you to the wrong conclusion.

You are the one that dismissed the role of works in the life of the believer. I simply corrected you.

In terms of Ananias and Sapphira, you neglected to note that as a result of their untimely deaths, great FEAR came upon the whole church. Doesn't quite sound like your loving God scenario, does it??

It appears, from what I have read, you disagree, that when Paul speaks of works of the law/observing the law/no righteousness of obeying the law, he does not differentiate between between OT law and the moral law of the ten commandments in those statements. Such a conclusion is not to understand Paul's message:
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Romans7:4-6

Which law is Paul referring to in the above the believer dies to/they have no righteousness of obeying/they are not under in this regard/they have been released from?
In the next five verses Paul carries on, giving a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to the law:
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, ‘You shall not covet.’b]'>[b] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 7-11

The example Paul gave as to why he had to die to the law/not be under the law/had no righteousness of obeying the law/works of the law etc was: Thou shalt not covet, which is one of the Ten Commandments

112358 · Jan 9, 2019

Jason0047 said:
God does not save us in our act of water baptism. This was the normal way they introduced salvation.

Jesus, Peter, Paul, and the overwhelming majority of examples we have throughout the book of Acts where people were baptized as part of their conversion beg to differ with you.

Jason0047 said:
But it was not baptism that saved because Cornelius was saved before he was water baptized.

He was not. Neither was Paul. Neither were those who had received only John's baptism. Mark 16:16 will not go away, no matter how hard you try.

Jason0047 said:
The thief on the cross was also saved without water baptism, as well.

The thief on the cross lived and died under the Old Covenant. Baptism was not a requirement under the Old Covenant. Also, please point me to the scripture that says the thief had not been baptized. Many many Jews in and around Jerusalem had been baptized by John, including Jesus. How are you so sure the thief had never been baptized? You can't be sure because it is not revealed in scripture. But there remain the dozens of scriptures that directly associate baptism with salvation under the New Covenant. They will not go away.

Jason0047 said:
Paul says he came not to baptize but to preach the gospel (See 1 Corinthians 1:17). So if baptism was for salvation, then why is Paul leaving out an important part of our salvation?

Did you read the preceding 10 verses or so here? Paul is speaking with regard to the factions that had arisen among people who claimed allegiance to anyone other than Christ by virtue of who baptized them. He also lists a number of people he DID baptize. He is trying to minimize the importance of who did the baptizing. v15 "lest anyone should say that I baptized in my own name". Finally let's not forget that Paul himself was baptized as part of his own conversion to "wash away your sins". Are you really suggesting that Paul presents and different gospel in 1 Cor. than the one he himself obeyed??

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Actually, yes. He stopped sinning. He did not continue sinning. Nothing to indicate Yahweh condemned King David, or ever changed Yahweh's Purpose for King David.

I am talking about during the time David sinned. Was David saved WHILE he murdered and WHILE he committed adultery? If so, then you believe that a Christian can willingly murder and commit adultery and still be saved while doing so as long as they seek forgiveness with God later. That means Eternal Security Proponent George Sodini who is a mass murderer and who took his own life is saved.

George Sodini - Eternal Security Proponent who was a Mass Murderer and Suicide Victim.

1 John 3:15 says, "...no murderer has eternal life in him."
Proverbs 6:23 says, "But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul."

According to Scripture, one act of adultery is all that is needed to be an adulterer (Leviticus 20:10) and only one act of murder is all that is needed to be considered a murderer (Numbers 35:16-18).

ladodgers6 · Jan 9, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I am talking about during the time David sinned. Was David saved WHILE he murdered and WHILE he committed adultery? If so, then you believe that a Christian can willingly murder and commit adultery and still be saved while doing so as long as they seek forgiveness with God later. That means Eternal Security Proponent George Sodini who is a mass murderer and who took his own life is saved.

George Sodini - Eternal Security Proponent who was a Mass Murderer and Suicide Victim.

I'm curious, and hope you address this question. Did the Apostle Paul lose his Salvation, during his struggle with sin?

Struggling with Sin

13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2019

Danthemailman said:
In this parable, some may argue that being made "alive again" foreshadows the "born again" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. People in the NOSAS camp interpret this parable as the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation).

*I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NAS). I'll let you wrestle with that. In the end, the prodigal son humbled himself and came to his senses.

It is inconsistent of you to take words such as "found," "lost," "dead," and "alive" in other verses of the Bible as referring to salvation and then not apply that concept here in the Parable of the Prodigal Son (For the word "found" see: Romans 10:20; For the word "lost" see: Luke 19:10, 2 Corinthians 4:3; For the word "dead" see: Matthew 8:22, John 11:25, Ephesians 2:1, 1 Timothy 5:6, 1 Peter 4:6, Revelation 3:1; For the word "alive" see: 1 Corinthians 15:22.). This is just one parable in a series of three parables and all three of them deal with the theme of repentance and salvation. The first parable is about a lost sheep, in whom Jesus finds there is great rejoicing (Which is related to great rejoicing in heaven over one sinner that repents) (See: Luke 15:3-7). Likewise, the Parable of the Lost Coin is also about a woman and her finding her lost coin and desiring others to rejoice with her is a parallel to the joy of the angels in the presence of God over one sinner that repents (See: Luke 15:8-10). This is surely talking about salvation. Again, this theme continues with the Parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:11-32. We see the Prodigal Son become lost in his sins and is said to be dead while he was in sin, and then when he came back home and he repented to his father (i.e. Jesus is our Everlasting Father because He will resurrect us one day); The prodigal son was said to be "dead" and he was "alive again" and there was great rejoicing. So you are simply ignoring what Scripture is plainly teaching here so as to defend a sin and still be saved doctrine that the majority of churches teach (Which is not the narrow way that Jesus talked about).

Jude 1:12 talks about those who are twice dead and are plucked up by the roots.

All babies are automatically saved by Christ's sacrifice if they were to die. With the exception to those who worship the beast in the future, this means all babies are saved, and it is when they fall into sin when they grow up is when they die spiritually whereby they need to become born again spiritually by accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior so as to be saved again. Sin is what separates any person from God unless they seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and they continue to walk in His good ways (i.e. to be faithful). Meaning, a person is dead once before coming to Christ, and they can be dead again by returning to their sin again. Hence, they are twice dead unless they repent (seek forgiveness and walk uprightly with the Lord).

They are plucked up by the roots. In the Parable of the Sower, we see that those who fell away from the seed of the communicated Word of God (the gospel message) was due to riches and or persecution. They did not have any deep root in God's Word and thus they were plucked up by the roots and have fallen away from the faith.

Is all that is required for salvation is believing in Christ and Him crucified?

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Know what you believe and why you believe it

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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