If Yeshua was the sacrificial Lamb of God

chunkofcoal

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How could Israel be atoned for by Yeshua before they were sent into the wilderness if he hadn't died yet? What exile and what wilderness are you referring to?
They weren't atoned for if they didn't believe in Yeshua, and so when they went into the current exile, into the wilderness of the world, they bore their sins.

I'm just tossing around ideas because I'm wondering if the exile of Israel also has something to do with redemption.
 
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Shimshon

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They weren't atoned for if they didn't believe in Yeshua, and so when they went into the current exile, into the wilderness of the world, they bore their sins.

I'm just tossing around ideas because I'm wondering if the exile of Israel also has something to do with redemption.
It does, think Joseph. Here is a great description of the connection, Yeshua, an exiled messiah

If you notice, everything in scripture ties Yeshua with Israel. They are inseparable. One leads to the other, and all holidays speak and lead to them. Because together they represent the will of God. Each representative of the other and all being one within the other as a egg exists within the unborn child of a mother. John 14:20
 
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CherubRam

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Why is that funny? I think it was rather prophetic of the spiritual condition of Israel and the temporary nature of an atonement through animal blood.
On the serious side, no, it is not funny.
 
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Laureate

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He is the priest who pours out his דמם Blood > his דמם (divine) Plan of his בשר Flesh בשר Gospel, and he pours it out on the base of the altar (> earth), base men, to atone.

His blood is the catalyst of the Covenant.
 
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Laureate

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I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not. If not, then point out where I am wrong. BTW, I am a non-denominationalist.

One ought to come to the court of Alôhâyîm to seek the truth in righteousness, not to defend what they perceive to be the truth.

Like an Angel of Alôhâyîm, I stand neither for or against anyone, but as one who loves the truth in righteousness, do I speak.

Be concerned with what the Truth speaks, care not for what a man speaks.
 
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Lulav

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Here is where you said it;

The goat that was left alive had all the sins of Israel placed upon it and sent back to where they came from, the initiator of sins, Azazel, the goat demon or aka HaSatan.​

The goat that was sent into the wilderness (the scapegoat) is Azazel (Leviticus 16:8). You called HaSatan "Azazel". Therefore, you are calling the scapegoat "HaSatan". If not, then your words were in error and totally unclear as to what you really meant. HaSatan is NOT Azazel.
No, that is not correct.

“Place lots (goralot) upon the two goats, one marked for the Lord and the other marked for Azazel” (Lev. 16:8)

The key word here is 'for', it doesn't make it 'them' personally.

From Chabad

The strangest element of the service on Yom Kippur, set out in Acharei Mot,1 was the ritual of the two goats, one offered as a sacrifice, the other sent away into the desert “to Azazel.”

They were brought before the High Priest, to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from one another: they were chosen to be as similar as possible to one another in size and appearance. Lots were drawn, one bearing the words “To the L‑rd,” the other, “To Azazel.”

The word Azazel appears nowhere else in Scripture, and three major theories emerged as to its meaning.
  1. According to the sages and Rashi it meant “a steep, rocky or hard place,” in other words a description of its destination.
  2. According to Nahmanides , Azazel was the name of a spirit or demon, one of the fallen angels referred to in Genesis 6:2, similar to the goat-spirit called Pan in Greek mythology, Faunus in Latin.
  3. The third interpretation is that the word simply means “the goat [ez] that was sent away [azal].” Hence the English word “(e)scapegoat” coined by William Tyndale in his 1530 English translation of the Bible.


I will make an amendment which I hope will not cause further controversy as most only understand about one evil entity that of the Adversary. However even though there is little in the canon there are extrabiblical books that are mentioned in the canon that do speak of others. It may be that the others are not 'in play' during our time which would seem to be the case from the books of Jasher and Enoch.


Enoch 10

6 Again the Lord said to Raphael, Bind Azazyel hand and foot; cast him into darkness; and opening the desert which is in Dudael, cast him in there.

7 Throw upon him hurled and pointed stones, covering him with darkness;

8 There shall he remain for ever; cover his face, that he may not see the light.

9 And in the great day of judgment let him be cast into the fire.

10 Restore the earth, which the angels have corrupted; and announce life to it, that I may revive it.

11 All the sons of men shall not perish in consequence of every secret, by which the Watchers have destroyed, and which they have taught, their offspring.

12 All the earth has been corrupted by the effects of the teaching of Azazyel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.

T
he goat was not Azazel, but the 'conveyance' that took the sins of the people to him as they were attributed to him by his corruption.
 
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gadar perets

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They weren't atoned for if they didn't believe in Yeshua, and so when they went into the current exile, into the wilderness of the world, they bore their sins.
Now that you have defined which exile and wilderness you were referring to, I agree.
 
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gadar perets

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One ought to come to the court of Alôhâyîm to seek the truth in righteousness,
I have done so.

not to defend what they perceive to be the truth.
If I am only perceiving something to be true when it really isn't, then point out what I wrote that you believe is not true.

Be concerned with what the Truth speaks, care not for what a man speaks.
The Almighty uses Scripture, the Holy Spirit, and people to teach truth. I believe the former two have taught me. If you disagree, then point out my error.
 
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gadar perets

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No, that is not correct.

“Place lots (goralot) upon the two goats, one marked for the Lord and the other marked for Azazel” (Lev. 16:8)

The key word here is 'for', it doesn't make it 'them' personally.
I stand corrected. Thanks.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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They weren't atoned for if they didn't believe in Yeshua, and so when they went into the current exile, into the wilderness of the world, they bore their sins.
I'm just tossing around ideas because I'm wondering if the exile of Israel also has something to do with redemption.
If you notice, everything in scripture ties Yeshua with Israel. They are inseparable. One leads to the other, and all holidays speak and lead to them. Because together they represent the will of God. Each representative of the other and all being one within the other
The holidays representing the will of God are related to redemption very much.
The holidays NOT representing the will of God, that which is not in Scripture, don't - they represent something not "inseparable", not "One leads to the other", not connected with redemption in Jesus, rather with "they bore their sins" and "not atoned for".
It seems this way to me generally speaking and observing what is Written in Scripture "leads to Jesus" vs what is not Written in Scripture - a total contrast , i.e. opposite of "One leads to the other".
 
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Laureate

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I have done so.


If I am only perceiving something to be true when it really isn't, then point out what I wrote that you believe is not true.


The Almighty uses Scripture, the Holy Spirit, and people to teach truth. I believe the former two have taught me. If you disagree, then point out my error.

I speak about principles, and you are looking for error....it is about principles, not about you, or about me that I speak.
 
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AbbaLove

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Covered in the Blood of the Lamb?

Rabbi Tovia Singer Reveals the Significance of the Paschal Lamb

(from a Messianic Judaism perspective with Jewish music over last few minutes)


Christians draw a comparison between the Paschal Lamb and Jesus, insisting that the former foreshadows the latter. Of the four Gospels, only John makes this assertion. In this thought provoking broadcast, Rabbi Tovia Singer explores the significance of this holiday sacrifice.​
 
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tampasteve

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That is a good video. Just to be clear, Rabbi Singer is not Messianic, he is one of the most popular anti-Missionaries around, he is very anti-Messianic Judaism, but he does make many thought provoking commentaries.
 
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AbbaLove

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That is a good video. Just to be clear, Rabbi Singer is not Messianic, he is one of the most popular anti-Missionaries around, he is very anti-Messianic Judaism, but he does make many thought provoking commentaries.
Rabbi Singer does give the impression that the Apostle John got it right as well as the Rabbi's apparent understanding/interpretation of the NT Gospels? Being anti-Messianic Judaism or anti-Missionary is nothing knew ... perhaps he is among the select "elect" reform Jewish believers (Calvinist leaning) ;)
 
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ralliann

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Rabbi Singer does give the impression that the Apostle John got it right as well as the Rabbi's apparent understanding/interpretation of the NT Gospels? Being anti-Messianic Judaism or anti-Missionary is nothing knew ... perhaps he is among the select "elect" reform Jewish believers (Calvinist leaning) ;)
Passover sacrifices for sin...……..only for the priests.
See the feast of unleavened bread as was Temple practice of the priests.
5. In the month of Xanthicus, which is by us called Nisan, and is the beginning of our year, on the fourteenth day of the lunar month, when the sun is in Aries, (for in this month it was that we were delivered from bondage under the Egyptians,) the law ordained that we should every year slay that sacrifice which I before told you we slew when we came out of Egypt, and which was called the Passover; and so we do celebrate this passover in companies, leaving nothing of what we sacrifice till the day following. The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month, and continues seven days, wherein they feed on unleavened bread; on every one of which days two bulls are killed, and one ram, and seven lambs. Now these lambs are entirely burnt, besides the kid of the goats which is added to all the rest, for sins; for it is intended as a feast for the priest on every one of those days.

The priests feast of Passover was in eating the sacrifices for sin.

The first of which sacrifices began on 15 Nisan...…..I believe this is what John the Baptist preached, the lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world.....

Joh 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover
 
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visionary

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Passover sacrifices for sin...……..only for the priests.
See the feast of unleavened bread as was Temple practice of the priests.
5. In the month of Xanthicus, which is by us called Nisan, and is the beginning of our year, on the fourteenth day of the lunar month, when the sun is in Aries, (for in this month it was that we were delivered from bondage under the Egyptians,) the law ordained that we should every year slay that sacrifice which I before told you we slew when we came out of Egypt, and which was called the Passover; and so we do celebrate this passover in companies, leaving nothing of what we sacrifice till the day following. The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month, and continues seven days, wherein they feed on unleavened bread; on every one of which days two bulls are killed, and one ram, and seven lambs. Now these lambs are entirely burnt, besides the kid of the goats which is added to all the rest, for sins; for it is intended as a feast for the priest on every one of those days.

The priests feast of Passover was in eating the sacrifices for sin.

The first of which sacrifices began on 15 Nisan...…..I believe this is what John the Baptist preached, the lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world.....

Joh 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover
I have often found that there is always a prophetic message in the Torah. This part about it being intended as "a feast for the priest" gives a picture, that when the priests are covered by the passover blood and are born again, the enlightenment will shine forth on their flocks. It will all start with the Passover and the latter rain that follows during Pentecost. Just like it was for the disciples after the resurrection when the early rains fell.
 
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ralliann

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I have often found that there is always a prophetic message in the Torah. This part about it being intended as "a feast for the priest" gives a picture, that when the priests are covered by the passover blood and are born again, the enlightenment will shine forth on their flocks. It will all start with the Passover and the latter rain that follows during Pentecost. Just like it was for the disciples after the resurrection when the early rains fell.
Imo it is a prophetic picture of the new covenant priesthood. Which the Levitical priests were promised.
Heb 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
 
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Lulav

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I'm not sure if I replied to this so here goes

Prophecy, yes. Types and shadows, no. Here are a few more examples of things that don't match up;

Leviticus 4:28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
Lev 4:32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.
Lev 5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.

In this example, the people chose, but YHWH chose the Atonement goats via lots.

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.​

That makes no sense to me, I think the two are related. However your other things that don't match up, I'm not sure what you are trying to match that up with??​

The passage you quoted was speaking of individuals not the whole nation. Yeshua did not die, was not sacrificed for himself.

You write about the earthly, but I was referring to the heavenly.

"It was the 'man' that was appointed by G-d, Aaron and his line, as well the Mercy seat was made to be like the one in heaven and by two chosen workmen by G-d himself again."

Of course I'm writing about the earthly, that is where Yeshua was and was sacrificed, on earth, not in heaven.

Yes, I am aware of those claims, but I was referring to Yeshua's blood being taken into heaven to cleanse heavenly things (Hebrews 9:23-24).
That brings a question, another non match. The blood that was splashed on the altar or the mercy seat would have been from a deceased sacrifice, same for Yeshua, not after three days and not after he was resurrected. That doesn't make sense. His blood, if he had any at that time would not be the same.
 
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gadar perets

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That makes no sense to me, I think the two are related. However your other things that don't match up, I'm not sure what you are trying to match that up with??

The passage you quoted was speaking of individuals not the whole nation. Yeshua did not die, was not sacrificed for himself.
Since Yeshua is our sin and trespass offering, then the points about such offerings being female do not match up with Yeshua being a male offering.
 
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AbbaLove

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Yeshua did not die, was not sacrificed for himself.
The Pharisees spread a lie that His disciples came and removed His body. Others may have imagined that He never died as He was reported to be seen alive for several days (40 days) after the stone was rolled away from the tomb where His lifeless dead body was laid.

Your inclusion of "If" in the thread title and your belief that "Yeshua did not die" is IMO disingenuous to the intent of this forum's SOP. As far as the sacrificial goat there is enough scripture to support the belief that Yeshua was not only the sacrificial Lamb of God, but also a type of scapegoat lamb (see What is the meaning of Azazel / the scapegoat?). I've purposely posted this reply as #60, as #61 and a new page will soon appear, in the event my reply is offensive to you ... so hopefully a new page will soon appear :)

Mark 15:37
But Jesus, giving a great cry, expired. (JUB)
Then Jesus cried out in a loud voice and died. (GW)
But Yeshua let out a loud cry and gave up his spirit. (CJB)
And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last. (NKJV)
And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, having uttered a kol gadol (loud voice) and
having breathed his last, expired. (OJB)​
I've been wondering if the two goats represent 1 Yeshua, 2 the scapegoat - Israel. The scapegoat was supposed to be let go in the wilderness (like exile) but if I remember correctly, they started throwing the scapegoats off the cliff because they kept trying to return.
The religious leaders tried to throw Yeshua over the cliff (Luke 4:29) in His hometown where He could only heal a few because of the unbelief of the majority. A 1-yr old lamb from a sheep or goat could be offered as a Passover sacrifice ...

Exodus 12:5 (JPS Tanakh)
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year; ye shall take it
from the sheep, or from the goats;​
The scapegoat represents Yeshua taking the sins of Israel far away. It cannot represent Satan or Israel since "atonement" is made by that goat (Leviticus 16:10).
Agree and Congrats on receiving a "Winner" award for your knowledgeable post :)
Would appreciate your interpretation of any connection of the desert goat to Yeshua being in the desert wilderness for 40 days. Or is the desert goat's only connection only to that of Israel's 40-yr desert wilderness journey. One in which all the first generation died except for Caleb and Joshua.
 
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