Approaches to Eschatology

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 7, 2019

Dr. D Bunker said:
Read the passage carefully, the day of visitation applies to Assyria, not Israel.

What about Luke 19 and Revelation 18?

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her, 42 saying, "That if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon thee, and thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to thee, and shall be encompassing thee, and pressing thee every which place.
44 And shall be leveling thee and thy offspring in thee, and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in thee, instead which not thou knew the time of thy visitation/overseeing/inspection<1984>".

This sure doesn't look like Assyria/Assyrians to me here....

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers!
Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath to come?[Luke 23:30 Revelation 6:16]
Revelation 6:16
And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks: 'Be falling upon us! and hide us! from Face of the One-sitting upon the Throne,
and from the wrath<3709> of the Lambkin

Mat 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
Luke 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

Revelation 18
8 by this, in one day shall be arriving<2240> the blows of Her, death and sorrow and famine. And in fire She shall be being burned, that strong Lord, the God, the one judging Her
18 “and cried out when they saw the smoke of Her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great City?'

Luke 19:43
That shall be arriving<2240> days upon thee, and thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to thee, and shall be encompassing thee, and pressing thee every which place.
.

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Biblewriter · Jan 7, 2019

jgr said:
I quoted verbatim what God said.

Isn't that what He meant?

You quoted what God said, and then pretended that it meant something that it very clearly did not mean.

jgr · Jan 7, 2019

Biblewriter said:
You quoted what God said, and then pretended that it meant something that it very clearly did not mean.

I believe that He said what He meant, and meant what He said. What do you believe?

Dr. D Bunker · Jan 7, 2019

parousia70 · Jan 8, 2019

Dr. D Bunker said:
You know what those passages are, I'm not going to spoon feed them to you. I'm sure you've been around long enough to know the PERSON we call anti-Christ is called several different names, you do know that, right?

Man made tradition is the ONLY authority you can appeal to for this belief.

There is not one single scripture that teaches "antichrist" is properly, biblically referred to by ANY other name.

Such is PURELY extra-biblical and man-made... otherwise, you would be able to cite chapter and verse of the teaching. But you can not. Because it does not exist in scripture. It is PURELY a later invention of men, yet for some reason, you hold that as authoritative for you over and above scripture.
I'll Stick to scripture.

You didn't look at the link to the Textus Receptus. Otherwise you would have put more effort in debunking my reply. The KJV was translated from it. Neither did you pay attention to the fact that one word for ANTICHRIST is SINGULAR,(the man) the other is plural!(the spirit). Why is that?

Really?
Lets look:
1 John 4:3

the [spirit]
τὸ (to)
Article - Nominative Neuter Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

of the
τοῦ (tou)
Article - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

antichrist,
ἀντιχρίστου (antichristou)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 500: From anti and Christos; an opponent of the Messiah.

Oops... care to try again?

Why would you interpret that verse to mean something it absolutely does not say?
Don't play games. Take the time to look at the links I provide. That was quoted from the 15th century interlinear.

Here is what the verse says:
"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."

and here is what you said:
I would interpret it like this, "Many antichrist have come, and THE antichrist is coming, that's how you will know it's the last hour."

Again, why would you interpret that verse to mean something it PLAINLY does not say?

When faced with these two polar opposite interpretations, that of the Infallibly inspired 1st-century apostle John, and that of random, fallible, 21st-century, man-made tradition holding internet commentator Dr D Buker, My money is on the Apostle, every time.

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 8, 2019

parousia70 said:
Man made tradition is the ONLY authority you can appeal to for this belief.

There is not one single scripture that teaches "antichrist" is properly, biblically referred to by ANY other name.

Such is PURELY extra-biblical and man-made... otherwise, you would be able to cite chapter and verse of the teaching. But you can not. Because it does not exist in scripture. It is PURELY a later invention of men, yet for some reason, you hold that as authoritative for you over and above scripture.
I'll Stick to scripture.

Here is what the verse says:
"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."

Again, why would you interpret that verse to mean something it PLAINLY does not say?

When faced with these two polar opposite interpretations, that of the Infallibly inspired 1st-century apostle John, and that of random, fallible 21st-century internet commentator Dr D Buker, My money is on the Apostle, every time.

Good post and it is always nice to go to the greek.

The exact form of that word for "hour" #5610 used in that verse of 1John is used in 2 verses of Revelation concerning the 70ad harvest around Judea/Jerusalem. Interesting

G5610 (NKJV)
G5610 ὥρα ὥρα — 33x
Speech: Noun Parsing: Nominative Feminine Singular
ὥρα hṓra, ho'-rah; apparently a primary word;
an "hour" (literally or figuratively):—day, hour, instant, season, × short, (even-)tide, (high) time.

Romans 13:11
And do this, knowing the time<2540, that now hour<5610> is to awake out of sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.

Rev 14:
7
saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour<5610> of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
15
And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Thy sickle and reap!
for the hour<5610> has come for Thee to reap, for the harvest of the land is ripe.”

..........................

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parousia70 · Jan 8, 2019

Dr. D Bunker said:
1 John 2:18 says THE ANTI-CHRIST. 2 Thes. 2 says, THE LAWLESS ONE, THE MAN OF SIN, THE SON OF PERDITION.

What scripture teaches these are the same individual?
I'll answer that for you and our readers:
NONE.
There is not one single scripture that teaches that antichrist and the man of sin are the same individual. Not even one.
Man-made tradition is the sole source of this unbiblical teaching you are promoting.

1 John 2:18 shows us there's a difference between The Anti-Christ and an anti-Christ. I know you're your Preterist blinders prevent you from seeing this. But by paying just a little attention you may see it....but I doubt you will.

Notice the word that describes THE Antichrist is preceded by the word THE and is Capitalized, and is SINGULAR! NOTICE THAT THE SECOND WORD ANTICHRISTS IS not capitalized and is plural, and the word MANY is used instead of THE.

NKJV
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

Right... in 1 John 2:18 the first THE Antichrist is the Singular SPIRIT, and the second "antichrists" are the individual 1st-century peoples affected by it.

Never have I claimed otherwise.

You can abandon this straw man now.

Now, if you can, Please show us where the Bible teaches that "THE Antichrist" of 1 John 2:18 is a different entity from "THAT Antichrist" of 1 John 4:3

Take as much time as you need.

Dr. D Bunker · Jan 8, 2019

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 8, 2019

Dr. D Bunker said:
In the beginning I said you wouldn't accept it, and you've proven that. It doesn't take but a novice bible student to decipher the different between the Anti-Christ and many antichrists. It doesn't take a grammatical genius to know that personal pronouns and proper, common, and collective nouns are used to describe one who is prophesied to emerge in the latter days. That a man is coming in the end is clear. 1 John calls him the Anti-Christ because he is the "false anointed one."

That terminology is used in the 15th century interlinear. That's another resource you refuse to pay attention to. Why would you, those resources only debunk your Preterist views!

There is also the AoD concerning the article "the".

Hebrew Interlinear of Daniel 11:31 Showing the use of the Definite Article -
THE Abomination of Desolation

Hebrew Interlinear of Daniel 12:11 Showing the Absence of the Definite Article -
AN Abomination of Desolation

Daniel 11:31
and arms/02220 z@rowa` from him, they shall stand up. And they profane//violate/02490 chalal the Sanctuary/04720 miqdash, the-Refuge/ma`owz. And they take-away/05493 cuwr the-Continually/08548 tamiyd, and they give/05414 nathan The-Abomination/08251 shiqquwts, one-making-desolate/08074 shamem.

Daniel 12:11
And-from-time he-is-taken-away/05493 cuwr the-continually/08548 tamiyd, and-to-give-of/05414 nathan an-abomination/08251 shiqquwts, one-desolating/08074 shamem, days, thousand, twohundreds, and ninety

Keep in mind that this whole discourse centers on the pre-70ad Temple and City.......
Here is Matt and Luke:

Matthew 24:15
"Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation, the being declared thru Daniel the Prophet having-stood in a place, holy (the one-reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723) let him be minding/understanding"
Mark 13:14
Whenever yet ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation having stood the-where not it is binding, (the one reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723) let him be understanding!
then those in the Judea let be fleeing! into the mountains

Revelation 1 uses the exact same form of the word for "reading"

Revelation 1:3
Happy/blessed the one reading/ana-ginwskwn <314> (5723) and the ones hearing the words of the prophecy and keepings the in it having been written
for the time is nigh.

However, a lot of Christians notice the absence of the AoD from Luke's discourse but he mentions this instead:

Luke 21:
20 Whenever yet ye may perceiving/seeing Jerusalem being encompassed by armies,
then be knowing that is nigh/egguV <1451> the desolating of Her...[Revelation 18:19]
24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

That is shown in Revelation 11:2.........those with eyes to see.........

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
and the holy City they shall be trampling<3961> (5692) forty two months.

What I find so fascinating about the map below is the position of the 10th Legion of the Roman army....on the Mount of Olives! where Jesus gave his famous 70ad Olivet Discourse

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

Mat 24:3
1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple,
2and Jesus said to them, 'Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.'
3 And when He is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, 'Tell us, when shall these be?

Luke 19:43
That shall be arriving<2240> days upon thee, and thy Enemies shall be casting up a rampart to thee, and shall be encompassing thee, and pressing thee every which place.

Legio X Fretensis - Wikipedia

By 70, the rebellion in all of Judaea had been crushed, except for Jerusalem and a few fortresses, including Masada. In that year X Fretensis, in conjunction with V Macedonica, XII Fulminata, and XV Apollinaris, began the siege of Jerusalem, stronghold of the rebellion.
The Xth camped on the Mount of Olives. During the siege, Legio X gained fame in the effective use of their various war machines. It was noted that they were able to hurl stones that weighted a talent (about 25 kg) a distance of two furlongs (400 m) or further..............

Reve 16:21 And great Hail as talent-weight is descending out of the Heaven/Sky upon the Men, and they blaspheme the God out of the blow of the Hail, that great is the blow of it, tremendous.

........................

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claninja · Jan 8, 2019

Dr. D Bunker said:
Yes it is. ONCE. The KJV omitted the word THE and several other translations haven't. THE is in the Textus Receptus.

"THE antichrist" is used more than once in scripture. However, outside of 1 and 2 John, "the antichrist" is not used at all.

Dr. D Bunker said:
KJV 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The word 'anti-Christ' in the KJV doesn't always indicate a plurality of persons. 1st and 2nd John shows that anti-Christ IS the denial of Christ and a damnable heresy. The 'anti-Christ' has several names. The man of sin, and the lawless one, the wicked counsellor, the son of perdition, a vile person, etc. He IS one individual since there are several times personal pronouns are used to describe him. Anti-Christ isn't always just a 'spirit.'

In 1 John 2:18 the word THE is in the interlinear. Over a dozen bible translations use the word 'the' in the translation of 1 John 2:18. The NIV is just one that does...

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."

I would interpret it like this, "Many antichrist have come, and THE antichrist is coming, that's how you will know it's the last hour."

1 John 2:18 has one word for antichrist that is singular, the other plural, and wasn't translated correctly in the KJV. You can confirm that at the link below.

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that (THE) antichrist (singular) shall come, even now are there many antichrists; (plural) whereby we know that it is the last time."

The verse actually reads in the Greek interlinear like this...
Little boys and girls, it is the last hour and according as ye hear that THE "instead-anointed" (antichrist) is coming and now many instead anointeds have become.....
www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...NTpdf/1jo2.pdf

Any such person who denies the Father and the Son and the coming of Christ in the flesh is THE antichrist. Simple as that.

1 John 2:22 is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is THE ANTICHRIST, who denies the Father and the Son

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, refusing to confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Any such person is the deceiver and THE ANTICHRIST

Notice the parallel between these 2 passages:

1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is already in the world at this time.

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour

Dr. D Bunker said:
Old Testament Prophets had no option but to use the wording and knowledge of their time to describe people and events thousands of years in the future. So we have to look for hidden clues to determine the timeframe of the message.

You mean Isaiah had no option but to specifically use king of Assyria to mean future world king, instead of using a generic term for a future empire/king?

I would disagree, see Daniel 11: king of the north and king of the south.

Dr. D Bunker said:
The idea of an Assyrian anti-Christ doesn't mean the man emerges from ancient Assyria, it means he will come from that geographical area, either born there or rule from there, e.g. likely Iraq.

Assyria doesn't really mean the Assyrian empire, but from the geographical area that Assyria controlled? So in other words the king could come from Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Syria, etc......

Where are we ever taught to interpret scripture that way? Can you give an example of scripture that has been fulfilled in order show that we can interpret scripture that way?

Dr. D Bunker said:
I agree that Jerusalem wasn't taken in verse 11.

Good, we agree on that.

Do you agree that Samaria was already taken in verse 11?

"I have done" is qal perfect: meaning it is a completed action. Therefore based on grammar, Samaria was already conquered.

Isaiah 10:11 and as I have done to Samaria and its idols, will I not also do to Jerusalem and her idols?”

Dr. D Bunker said:
In Isaiah 10:1 it says, "Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed."

Assyria is not mentioned in Isaiah 10:1-4

Dr. D Bunker said:
This WOE is directed towards "Assyria," NOT toward Israel.

I agree, In Isaiah 10:5 the woe is directed at Assyria. Who said it was Israel?
Isaiah 10:5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of my anger; the staff in their hands is my fury!

Assyria is described here as the rod of God's anger. In other words, he uses Assyria to punish nations.

This is similar to Babylon, who was God's weapon for destroying kingdoms.
Jeremiah 51:20 You are my hammer and weapon of war: with you I break nations in pieces;
with you I destroy kingdoms;

Dr. D Bunker said:
Chapter 14 is full of events that can only happen during the Millennial kingdom. Chapter 10, not so much. The Lord has NOT "performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem." It goes on until "the day of visitation," the Day of the Lord. Verse 12 clearly states the Lord punishes the KING of Assyria.

This depends on what the meaning of the work is upon mount zion and on Jerusalem. Do you have scripture that defines this work? But I agree that the king of Assyria is punished when this work is complete.

Dr. D Bunker said:
NOT the Assyrian people like you claim.

Where did I claim the king of Assyria in Isaiah 10:12 was the Assyrian people?

Dr. D Bunker said:
That doesn't matter because it's the KING of Assyria is who the Lord punishes, NOT the Assyrians, and that according to you're thinking and 2 Kings19:35-36, would be Sennacherib.

So destroying Sennacherib's army is not punishing Sennacherib?

Dr. D Bunker said:
The Assyrian is destroyed in Israel!
Isaiah 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders. This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

So Jerusalem and the other cities of Judah were not burdened by the Assyrian empire during the time of Isaiah? I disagree

The burden ended when God struck down the army of Sennacherib and the Assyrians withdrew from Jerusalem and Judah.

Dr. D Bunker said:
Isaiah 10:27 And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

I agree, one possible interpretation is "anointing", another is "oil" and still another is "fat"

For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man: And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped. [/QUOTE]

So this is done by a single man, with no people or army to back him up. 1 man, the Assyrian, on his own, removed bounds, robbed treasures, put down inhabitants, and gathered all the earth?

Dr. D Bunker · Jan 8, 2019

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 8, 2019

Dr. D Bunker said:
In 70 A.D. There was ONE army that surrounded Jerusalem, the Roman army. Not several armies like those mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39 and Psalm 83.

And how the events of 70 AD were worse than the holocaust.

Concerning the ww2 holocaust, Israel's PM just became a Preterist! AMEN!
I view all of Ezekiel's prophecies fulfilled upon Israel and Jerusalem, but the fact that an Israeli leader sees Chapter 37 as fulfilled thru the holocaust is rather interesting.

Prophecies of Ezekiel 37

In a stunning and remarkable moment, Netanyahu also declared to the people of Europe and the world that the prophecies of Ezekiel 37 have been fulfilled.

The Holocaust, he said, represented the "dry bones" and "graves" of the Jewish people, and out of that horror the State of Israel was resurrected, just as the Lord said would happen through the Hebrew Prophet Ezekiel.

Rarely has any world leader given a major address on an international stage declaring End Times prophecies from the Bible have come true. But that is exactly what Netanyahu did. - Joel Rosenberg

NTEB: God's Prophetical Promise To Return The Jews To Israel

I though this was relevant for Christians to read as a part of fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy.
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I associate Ezekiel 37:10 to the resurrection of the 2 witnesses in Revelation..................

Lazarus and 2 witnesses of Reve 11 similarity

Ezekiel 37:10
So I prophesied as He commanded me and a breath/spirit came into them
and they lived and they stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of adam, these bones are the whole house of Israel.
[Revelation 11:11]

Revelation 11:11
And after the three days and half-equal, a spirit/breath of life out of the God entered in them
and they stand <histēmi 2476> on their feet and great fear falls upon the ones observing them.
[Ezekiel 37:10]

Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead-ones not live until should be being finished the thousand years.
This is the first resurrection/ana-histemi <386>.

303. ana an-ah' a primary preposition and adverb;
properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.):
2476. histemi his'-tay-mee a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses);
to stand (transitively or intransitively),

.

parousia70 · Jan 8, 2019

Dr. D Bunker said:
In 70 A.D. There was ONE army that surrounded Jerusalem, the Roman army. Not several armies like those mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39 and Psalm 83.

Rather, Rome led a multinational coalition. Assyria alone sent 5000 troops.

Not ONCE in Mathew 24 does Jesus suggest he is deviating from answering the disciples question" WHEN shall these things be, what shall be the sing of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Jesus is talking about "the end" of an 'aion' which we are still within. This is generation no other than the one that sees and endures what Jesus said between verses 3-33.

What verse in Matt 24 do you say Jesus answers the disciples question about WHEN the temple would fall?

Take all the time you need.

Can any preterist tell me who between 65-70 A.D. were the false Christ that deceive many,

You make this too easy.

Dositheus the Samaritan (Origen: Contra Celsum, VI, ii; Hom. xxv in Lucam; Contra Celsum, I, lvii), Simon Magus (Acts 8:9-24) who was deified in Rome, Theudas (Acts 5:36-37), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Herod Agrippa (Acts 12:20-23), Menahem (Josephus: War of the Jews; 2.433-450).
Under the government of Felix, deceivers rose up daily in Judea and persuaded the people to follow them into the wilderness, assuring them that they should behold conspicuous signs and wonders performed by the Almighty. (Felix, from time to time, apprehended many and put them to death.) During this period (52-58 AD) arose a celebrated Egyptian deceiver (Acts 21:38), who collected thirty-thousand followers and persuaded them to accompany him to the Mount of Olives, telling them that from there they would see the walls of Jerusalem fall down at his command as a prelude to the capture of the Roman garrison and their obtaining the sovereignty of the city (Josephus: War of the Jews, 2.259-263; Antiquities of the Jews 20.169-171). Such messiahs and magicians were often as powerful in the display of miracles as were the apostles (see: Simon of Samaria in Acts 8:9-11; Apollonius of Tyana).

Partial list of first-century false messiahs: Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BC); Simon of Peraea (4 BC); Athronges, the shepherd (4 BC); Judas, the Galilean (6 AD); the Samaritan prophet (36 AD); King Herod Agrippa (44 AD); Theudas (? AD); the Egyptian prophet (52-58 AD); anonymous prophet (59 AD); Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 AD); John of Gischala (67-70 AD); Vespasian (67 AD); Simon bar Giora (69-70 AD). Related link: Livius.org - Messiah Overview.

What the rumours of wars and wars were between 65-70 A.D.,
What nations rose against nations, what kingdoms rose against kingdoms.

Claudius' Roman war with Britain/East Anglia; at least three Jewish insurrections against Rome prior to the 60s AD (one violently put down by Cuspius Fadus); the Jewish/Alexandrian revolt upon Caligula's death; Claudius declares martial law in Palestine after the Jewish insurrection at the death of Agrippa I; the Germanic tribes in present-day Belgium and Germany made perpetual trouble for the legions throughout the reign; a smoldering Balkan war was in continuous progress. As these conflagrations escalated, Rome started its own civil wars in 68-70 that nearly toppled the empire. As Tacitus writes, "Four princes [Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Domitian] killed by the sword; three civil wars, several foreign wars; and mostly raging at the same time. Favorable events in the East [the subjection of the Jews], unfortunate ones in the West. Illyria disturbed, Gaul uneasy; Britain conquered and soon relinquished; the nations of Sarmatia and Suevia rising against us; the Parthians excited by the deception of a pseudo-Nero." For more on wars of this time and false prophets, see: Josephus: Antiquities, 20:5:1-4; 20:8:5-10; Wars, 2:10:1; 2:13:4-7; 6:5:2.

What famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, took place in divers places.

Acts 11:28 records a worldwide famine. Josephus reports famines in Jerusalem in the 60s AD which killed hundreds of thousands during the Jewish War (AD 66-70). There were accounts of infanticide and cannibalism (as foretold in Deuteronomy 28:53,57) -- Jewish women cooked and ate their babies (Josephus; Wars 6:3:3-4; Wars 5:1:4). Concerning earthquakes, Seneca writes: "How often have cities in Asia, how often in Achaia, been laid low by a single shock of earthquake! How many towns in Smyrna, how many in Macedonia, have been swallowed up! How often has Paphos collapsed! Not infrequently are tidings brought to us of the utter destruction of entire cities" (Seneca Ad Lucilium Epistulae Morales, trans. Richard M. Gummere, vol. 2, 437). Josephus says of Jerusalem, "the city was besieged on both sides...there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming" (Wars, 4:4:5).

Who it was that was saved by enduring to the end.

The Nazarene Sect Of Judaism.

What or who the abomination was.

Scripture tells us:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;

The above three PARALLEL accounts all speak of the SAME EVENT.
It's the Same WHEN, the Same DESOLATION and the same THEN time to flee to the mountains.

The Honest Bible expositor knows that parallel accounts can not be interpreted to have differrent meanings.

And how the events of 70 AD were worse than the holocaust.

There were accounts of infanticide and cannibalism (as foretold in Deuteronomy 28:53,57) -- Jewish women cooked and ate their babies (Josephus; Wars 6:3:3-4; Wars 5:1:4).

No such accounts can be found from the Holocaust.

How Great of "Tribulation" would you have to suffer before you murdered, cooked and ate your own Child, Dr D?

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Comparing scripture with scripture quickly demonstrates this usage of "ever was nor ever shall be":

Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future. Therefore, we recognize that the expression "ever was/nor ever shall be" is a common Hyperbolic Hebraic idiom that the prophets of God used quite frequently.

St. Luke's account of this great tribulation reads as follows:
"These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people." (Luke 21:22-23)

Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matthew 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).

Even so, AD 66-70 was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

That bears repeating.

Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).

Continued.....

parousia70 · Jan 8, 2019

Continuing...

Dr. D Bunker said:
And why the gospel of the kingdom is still being preached in all the world when the word for world is "the inhabited earth"

There is no expiration date on the everlasting Gospel, Because it is EVERLASTING.

That said, there was an EXPLICIT prophecy about it being spread to all the known world prior to the Temple falling:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Again, scripture CONFIRMS it was:

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

Men from every nation heard Peter preach the gospel (Acts 2:5,9-11,14); and Peter said it was published throughout Judaea (Acts 10:37, 1 Pet.4:6). Again, Paul says he fully preached the gospel (Romans 15:19), and it appeared to all men (Titus 2:11.), and it was preached and believed on in the world (1 Timothy 3:16). In Romans 10:18, the word "world" is oikumene, same as Mat.24:24, and the word "earth" is ge, same as Acts 1:8. In Romans 16:25-26, the word "nations" is ethnos, same as Mark 13:10. In Colossians 1:6, the word "world" is kosmos, same as Mark 16:15. In Colossians 1:23, the word "creature" is ktisis, same as Mark 16:15. Hebrews 4:2 says the gospel was preached.

And how the sun and moon were darkened and how “the stars will fall from the sky.”

This is basic, fundemental apocalyptic language used by the OT prophets to describe the fall of a nation.
Symbols such as God "coming on the clouds" and being "seen" by the "eyes of all nations" to "lay the foundations of the earth bare" causing "the stars to fall from the sky" and "moon turn to blood" and "sun to go dark" "The Heavens to be Shaken" to "roll up like a scroll", etc... are repeated time and again by the prophets throughout the OT to describe God's past, FULFILLED judgments of individual nations such as Babylon, Israel, Egypt, Edom, Nineveh, etc.. in real history, using human armies as his instrument.

The burden is yours to demonstrate where scripture teaches you to wholly abandon this set OT prophetic precident the minute you find this language in the NT, and in turn apply a polar opposite, hyper literal interpretation (unrecognizable to the OT prophets), instead of continuing to apply it's well estabished, symbolic usage by those authoritative OT voices.

Yahweh's various day-of-the-Lord judgments were signaled by the prophets with common apocalyptic language that consists of common apocalyptic idioms and metaphoric doom language. See these fulfilled prophecies and note the common apocalyptic metaphors in each:

*Micah 1:1-9 -- Assyrian conquest of Samaria and Jerusalem
*Nahum 1:1-8 -- Nineveh's doom
*Zephaniah 1:1-10,14-18 -- Judgment against Judah
*2 Sam 22:8-16 -- destruction of Saul's kingdom
*Ez 32:1-12 -- Judgment against Egypt by Babylon

In each of these fulfilled passages, we read all of the common apocalyptic metaphors to describe Jehovah's comings:

*the destruction of earth
*the bowing of the heavens
*the melting of the mountains like wax
*the blackening of the sun, moon, and stars
*the wiping away of every living thing
*blood as high as the mountains
*the burning of the earth and all that dwell in it (at His presence)
*Etc. etc.

This is known as APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE, which is Hebraic prophetic idiom used by the prophets to foretell the downfall of nations and individuals by God in history. It is uniquely apocalyptic and hyperbolic in nature. So also Christ, being of this well-known prophetic tradition, used the same apocalyptic language to foretell the downfall of Israel at her greatest Day of the Lord judgment at AD 66-70 (e.g., compare Matt 24:29-30 to Isaiah 13:10-11 concerning Babylon and Ezekiel 32:7-8 concerning Nebuchadnezzar and Egypt.)

--COMPARE THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Ezekiel 32:7-8
And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

--TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

--AND TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Isaiah 13:10
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

This is all apocalyptic language employed by the Hebrew prophets concerning things and events that have already taken place. They do not prophesy whatsoever about things in our future, for they were already fulfilled.

Are you new at this?
Because in spite of your puffed up Bravado and Hubris, you are demonstrably uninformed about both Scripture and History.

Again, you are making this too easy.

Try to Put a little more effort in next time, ok?

Dr. D Bunker · Jan 8, 2019

Marilyn C · Jan 8, 2019

Dr. D Bunker · Jan 8, 2019

Marilyn C · Jan 8, 2019

I agree that the anti-Christ is the Assyrian from the area of Syria and Iraq. Interesting that that area has again come into focus. From there will rise this deceitful, cunning, wicked person.

Marilyn.

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Pre-tribulation.

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Pre-tribulation.

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