Circumcision Poll, To Snip or Not to Snip

Jon Osterman said:

I think it is our responsibility as Christians to shame parents who abuse their children. It is one thing to stand by and let others sin when that sin only affects themselves, but when it affects their innocent children who cannot protect themselves, are we not morally required to act? If a parent cut off their child's ear, would you still refuse to "shame them"?

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How far must we go. Should we shame parents for getting their children's ears pierced or allowing a child to get a tattoo or for cutting off their hair or fingernails? Should we shame them for allowing their children to watch network television? Should we shame them for not seeing to it that their children are praying daily and with the correct form of prayer and for not instructing them in the correct form of Christian worship? Should we shame them only for every little transgression that one particular person or group finds particularly offensive but refrain from shaming them for any transgression that that person or group does not find offensive ?

Jon Osterman said:

I think it is our responsibility as Christians to shame parents who abuse their children. It is one thing to stand by and let others sin when that sin only affects themselves, but when it affects their innocent children who cannot protect themselves, are we not morally required to act? If a parent cut off their child's ear, would you still refuse to "shame them"?

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So you believe that God's command to the Jews to circumcise their male children constitutes child abuse?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

So you believe that God's command to the Jews to circumcise their male children constitutes child abuse?

-CryptoLutheran

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Do you also stone them to death when they are disobedient, as described in Deuteronomy 21:18-21?

Many things that were acceptable in ancient Isreal are no longer acceptable in today's society.

I vote yes, because it's cleaner. I'm glad it happened while I was young, and I have no memory of it. I certainly don't need the part, as I have no intention of running naked through the bushes. Clothing serves the same purpose.

I think it is our responsibility as Christians to shame parents who abuse their children.

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Those of us who experienced any manner of abuse as children would find your comment laughable. We live with the memories that circumcision never leaves behind.

I voted yes and it has nothing to do with religion as to why I voted yes.

As an EMT, I have seen too many raging infections in the foreskin of older men, who either forget how to take care of it, or the nursing home that they are in doesn't take care of it properly, which is all too common. There were quite a few that had gone as far as to cause the men sepsis.

If the male is circumcised, there is also benefits for his wife in less chance of cancer.

All my sons have been done, as was I.

As for the sex part, I derive pleasure from sex just fine and there have never been complaints from the opposite sex.

Jon Osterman said:

Do you also stone them to death when they are disobedient, as described in Deuteronomy 21:18-21?

Many things that were acceptable in ancient Isreal are no longer acceptable in today's society.

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So you consider removing a tiny bit of skin to be on par with stoning?

-CryptoLutheran

If a person wishes to be circumcised they can always do so freely once they reach 18. Christians have been afforded much more freedom by God and should let others decide what to do with their bodies.

Boidae said:

As an EMT, I have seen too many raging infections in the foreskin of older men, who either forget how to take care of it, or the nursing home that they are in doesn't take care of it properly, which is all too common. There were quite a few that had gone as far as to cause the men sepsis.

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We see that here in foster care with the young children where I work. One kept getting so many infections they had to circumcise him at 5 years old - much longer healing time than just getting it over with as a baby.

Tail snipping is worse as far as i am concerned!

grasping the after wind said:

How far must we go. Should we shame parents for getting their children's ears pierced or allowing a child to get a tattoo or for cutting off their hair or fingernails? Should we shame them for allowing their children to watch network television? Should we shame them for not seeing to it that their children are praying daily and with the correct form of prayer and for not instructing them in the correct form of Christian worship? Should we shame them only for every little transgression that one particular person or group finds particularly offensive but refrain from shaming them for any transgression that that person or group does not find offensive ?

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Or shame parents for vaccinating their children, or for even spanking their children?

This socialist technique of trying to shame parents one disagrees with is a cowardly strategy in my view, and only leads to divisions. If you disagree with someone, simply state your case openly and honestly. If you can't win them over, remember, God put the other parent's child in the other parent's care, not yours - take it up with God.

The apostle did say that a man should remain in the state that he was in, but (circumcision in that case) dealt more with his day and age than with us.

Jonaitis said:

The apostle did say that a man should remain in the state that he was in, but (circumcision in that case) dealt more with his day and age than with us.

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I think this was for religious reasons (i.e. earning favour with God). Paul was not opposed to circumcision for cultural reasons, as he didn't prohibit Jewish parents circumcising their children, and even circumcised Timothy himself.

When circumcision is practiced today, it's largely done for health/hygiene reasons, and usually soon after birth, so there can be no question the child is doing it to earn favour with God.

Ear piercing was also used in the bible as a symbol of servitude, but no one thinks about this at all when their daughters' ears get pierced - it's just cultural. (If someone was thinking about this, probably we should be worried!)

As with any part of the human body, there can be cases of necessity where some kind of procedure has to be performed. Someone might need their tonsils removed, and sometimes someone might need his foreskin removed.

But otherwise, males of all mammal species have their foreskin from birth to death and do just fine, and that is the case with most humans as well. My son is not circumcised, and I don't buy into any of the reasons given as to why it should be considered necessary and the default position.

When we were in the hospital after his birth, they asked us if we wanted him circumcised. They apparently did not expect someone to say "no", and asked us repeatedly if we were sure. It was very annoying.

.

Circumcision was largely unheard of among Christians until the Victorians latched onto it in a delusional attempt to stop masturbation (due to their obsession with regulating sexuality).

FireDragon76 said:

Circumcision was largely unheard of among Christians until the Victorians latched onto it in a delusional attempt to stop masturbation (due to their obsession with regulating sexuality).

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Maybe, but hygiene advocates, today, aren't particularly anti-masturbation. It certainly isn't the motivation of contemporary Africa.

(I highly doubt that anybody has foregone masturbation because of it, anyway... )

Sabertooth said:

Maybe, but hygiene advocates, today, aren't particularly anti-masturbation. It certainly isn't the motivation of contemporary Africa.

(I highly doubt that anybody has foregone masturbation because of it, anyway... )

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The aim of improving health by circumcision in countries like South Africa has resulted in some amusing advertising campaigns. But I still think it's easier for all involved to circumcise soon after birth, and avoid all the problems of doing it later.

I don't fully understand how some Christians can consider a covenant sign instituted by God as mutilation, even if done for health reasons rather than religious ones. At least they should accept the possibility that the covenant sign may have accompanying health/hygiene benefits.

This is one of those difficult subjects...
For the life of me, i can't understand why God would ordain such a horrible, traumatic thing.
As if birth itself wasn't bad enough.
But then you discover mommy is still there, and you're safe.
And then after a week, as ordained by God anyway, some dude with sharp tools comes and cuts off a piece of you where it really hurts.
Trauma.
What effect does this have on a baby?
What effect does it have for the rest of his life?
Opinions vary enormously, as usual...

So, it's clear that i'm absolutely opposed to the whole idea.
But that means i oppose God's Will on this one.
So i'll never win that, obviously..

And these were my 2 lousy cents on the matter.
Maybe i should have skipped this topic...

Hieronymus said:

This is one of those difficult subjects...
For the life of me, i can't understand why God would ordain such a horrible, traumatic thing.
As if birth itself wasn't bad enough.
But then you discover mommy is still there, and you're safe.
And then after a week, as ordained by God anyway, some dude with sharp tools comes and cuts off a piece of you where it really hurts.
Trauma.
What effect does this have on a baby?
What effect does it have for the rest of his life?
Opinions vary enormously, as usual...

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Lol. I don't know that birth is as traumatic as you make out. And even if it is, doesn't having some nice boobies to dispense us warm milk after the ordeal make it all worthwhile?

I think infants don't feel pain in the same way as adults, and infants certainly recover from circumcision faster than adults. I think if foreskins were attached to the ear lobes or somewhere, people wouldn't think twice about the practice of circumcision, but because the skin is located at the end of the male member, people get more emotional about the process.

Hieronymus said:

So, it's clear that i'm absolutely opposed to the whole idea.
But that means i oppose God's Will on this one.
So i'll never win that, obviously..

And these were my 2 lousy cents on the matter.
Maybe i should have skipped this topic...

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I don't think this means you're opposed to God's will. Just be grateful you are living in New Testament times.

Phil.Stein said:

Lol. I don't know that birth is as traumatic as you make out.

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Well, they cry when they come out.
The first thing a baby does is cry.
And understandably so.
You've grown up inside a save and warm environment, and then you get squished out into a naked, cold and blinding new reality.
It's cold of course because you're wet, and you suddenly inhale (relatively) cold air.
I can't remember my birth, but it must have been a deeply shocking experience.

And even if it is, doesn't having some nice boobies to dispense us warm milk after the ordeal make it all worthwhile?

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Yes, that's the relief.
Relief is a good thing.
You discover it's all okay in the new reality too.

I think infants don't feel pain in the same way as adults, and infants certainly recover from circumcision faster than adults.

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Yes, but adults are aware of what happens, and adult circumcision doesn't come as a surprise.
It's a choice, a decision.
And adults know what the pain of wounding is, because they have experienced it before.
I can't help but feel very sorry for an 8 day old baby who never saw it coming and only to set them apart from other people in God's eyes.
I just don't get it....

I think if foreskins were attached to the ear lobes or somewhere, people wouldn't think twice about the practice of circumcision, but because the skin is located at the end of the male member, people get more emotional about the process.

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Yes, but it would be a problem if it was connected to the ear lobes.
What is the problem that is solved by circumcision?
Yes, it may have some benefits, but it may cause infection and other problems too.
And then there's still the trauma question, which is my main concern.
I see it as a violation of the newborn's trust in the safety of being a baby.
I don't know what mental scars this may cause, but it worries me.

I don't think this means you're opposed to God's will. Just be grateful you are living in New Testament times.

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I'm grateful it wasn't done to me.
One day i will understand.