If Yeshua was the sacrificial Lamb of God

gadar perets

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Quite. But the thing is the Blood still needed to be put in it's proper place.

I'm working on a list of requirements for each sacrifice to see where they match up and where they differ.
Scripture does not need to be fulfilled in every exact detail. For example, both goats were selected by lots, but Yeshua wasn't selected in that way; the blood needed to be sprinkled from a man's finger upon a man made mercy seat, but Yeshua's blood was not applied in that way; the Passover lamb needed to be literally eaten, but the ultimate Passover Lamb (Yeshua) is not to be literally eaten; etc.
 
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chunkofcoal

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I've been wondering if the two goats represent 1 Yeshua, 2 the scapegoat - Israel. The scapegoat was supposed to be let go in the wilderness (like exile) but if I remember correctly, they started throwing the scapegoats off the cliff because they kept trying to return.
 
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gadar perets

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I've been wondering if the two goats represent 1 Yeshua, 2 the scapegoat - Israel. The scapegoat was supposed to be let go in the wilderness (like exile) but if I remember correctly, they started throwing the scapegoats off the cliff because they kept trying to return.
The scapegoat represents Yeshua taking the sins of Israel far away. It cannot represent Satan or Israel since "atonement" is made by that goat (Leviticus 16:10).
 
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Lulav

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Scripture does not need to be fulfilled in every exact detail.
That sounds to me like the beginning of the slippery slope. If true prophecy comes from G-d is he going to not make things match up?

For example, both goats were selected by lots, but Yeshua wasn't selected in that way;
If we look at the scene of Yeshua in front of Pilate and him offering to let a prisoner go 'as was the custom' (this custom could be referring to the memorial of Passover, that of being freed from slavery in Egypt). Pilate could have designated Yeshua as the one to let go, however he did not, instead he chose a prisoner by name of Bar Abbas, which means Son of the Father (some say, like Origin that his full name could have been Yeshua Bar Abba).
The reason this is signifigant is because the people were the ones to vote on whom they wanted to be set free (the goat for Azazel) and who they wanted sacrificed (the goat for the L-RD).

the blood needed to be sprinkled from a man's finger upon a man made mercy seat,
It was the 'man' that was appointed by G-d, Aaron and his line, as well the Mercy seat was made to be like the one in heaven and by two chosen workmen by G-d himself again.

but Yeshua's blood was not applied in that way;
That is what I am trying to reconcile. A man named Ron Wyatt has claimed to have found the Ark and the true place of crucifixion complete with the three holes that held up the upright posts of the cross. He has proclaimed to have found that these posts were directly underneath where the ark was located, thought to have been placed there by Jeremiah and other priests before Nebuchadnezzar could confiscate it. On it he found animal skins and a dark substance that he had examined and found to have been blood. This blood was tested and found that the DNA only had mitochondrial DNA.

Being that Yeshua is not only a King but also a priest he could present his own blood.

the Passover lamb needed to be literally eaten, but the ultimate Passover Lamb (Yeshua) is not to be literally eaten; etc.

This is something for further examination. :)
 
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Lulav

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Sin and guilt offerings were common in ancient Israel, but this ceremony was unique.
Normally confession was made over the animal to be offered as a sacrifice.
In this case confession was made over the goat not offered as a sacrifice.

Why the division of the offering into two?
Why two identical animals whose fate, so different, was decided by the drawing of a lot?

Atonement in the Hebrew is 'kapparah' meaning 'to cover'. But that doesn't take them away.

In this ceremony the goat that was to be sacrificed was for the covering.

The goat that was left alive had all the sins of Israel placed upon it and sent back to where they came from, the initiator of sins, Azazel, the goat demon or aka HaSatan.

The Torah specifies two objectives, not one:

“On this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you.
Then, before the L‑rd, you will be clean from all your sins.”​

Normally all that was aimed at was atonement, kapparah. On Yom Kippur something else was aimed at: cleansing, purification, teharah. Atonement is for acts. Purification is for persons.
 
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gadar perets

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That sounds to me like the beginning of the slippery slope. If true prophecy comes from G-d is he going to not make things match up?
Prophecy, yes. Types and shadows, no. Here are a few more examples of things that don't match up;

Leviticus 4:28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
Lev 4:32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.
Lev 5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.

If we look at the scene of Yeshua in front of Pilate and him offering to let a prisoner go 'as was the custom' (this custom could be referring to the memorial of Passover, that of being freed from slavery in Egypt). Pilate could have designated Yeshua as the one to let go, however he did not, instead he chose a prisoner by name of Bar Abbas, which means Son of the Father (some say, like Origin that his full name could have been Yeshua Bar Abba).
The reason this is signifigant is because the people were the ones to vote on whom they wanted to be set free (the goat for Azazel) and who they wanted sacrificed (the goat for the L-RD).
In this example, the people chose, but YHWH chose the Atonement goats via lots.

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.​

It was the 'man' that was appointed by G-d, Aaron and his line, as well the Mercy seat was made to be like the one in heaven and by two chosen workmen by G-d himself again.
You write about the earthly, but I was referring to the heavenly.

That is what I am trying to reconcile. A man named Ron Wyatt has claimed to have found the Ark and the true place of crucifixion complete with the three holes that held up the upright posts of the cross. He has proclaimed to have found that these posts were directly underneath where the ark was located, thought to have been placed there by Jeremiah and other priests before Nebuchadnezzar could confiscate it. On it he found animal skins and a dark substance that he had examined and found to have been blood. This blood was tested and found that the DNA only had mitochondrial DNA.

Being that Yeshua is not only a King but also a priest he could present his own blood.
Yes, I am aware of those claims, but I was referring to Yeshua's blood being taken into heaven to cleanse heavenly things (Hebrews 9:23-24).
 
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gadar perets

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Why the division of the offering into two?
Because one would represent Yeshua's blood purifying the heavenly things and the other would represent Yeshua's removal of our sins.

Why two identical animals whose fate, so different, was decided by the drawing of a lot?
To teach us that man's Atonement is totally YHWH's doing.

The goat that was left alive had all the sins of Israel placed upon it and sent back to where they came from, the initiator of sins, Azazel, the goat demon or aka HaSatan.
The fact that both goats had to be unblemished before lots were drawn shows neither one could represent Satan. Neither can Satan be an atonement for sin. There are many verses showing that was Yeshua's honor.

Leviticus 16:22; "And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness."
Now consider the following;

Isaiah 53:6c - "And YHWH hath laid on him (Yeshua) the iniquity of us all."
The sins of Israel were laid on Yeshua. They were placed upon him and him alone.

Isaiah 53:11c - "For he (Yeshua) shall bear their iniquities ."

Isaiah 53:12d - "And he (Yeshua) bare the sin of many ..."
Yeshua is the one who bore our sins. He carried them away upon his own head which is what the Hebrew 'cabal' (bare) means.

Isaiah 53:4a - "Surely he (Yeshua) hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:"
Yeshua is the sin-bearer, not Satan.

Hebrews 9:28a - "So Messiah was once offered to bear the sins of many;"

1 Peter 2:24a - "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree."
There is no other sin-bearer.

The act of laying on of hands (vs.21; also; Leviticus 1:4; 3:2; 4:4,15,29,33) symbolizes the transference of sins from the guilty party (the children of Israel) to the innocent (azazel). The innocent then becomes the sin-bearer. Yeshua undeniably fulfills the type (Isaiah 53:4,6,11,12). Satan, however, cannot fulfill the type because he is not innocent. It will not satisfy the justice of YHWH to transfer the sins of the guilty to another guilty party. Since lots were used to decide which goat was "for YHWH," it meant that both goats had to be unblemished. The antitype of an unblemished goat was the sinlessness of Messiah. Can it be said that Satan is sinless and was to be represented by an unblemished goat?
 
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Lulav

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The Torah specifies two objectives, not one:

“On this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you.
Then, before the L‑rd, you will be clean from all your sins.”
Normally all that was aimed at was atonement, kapparah. On Yom Kippur something else was aimed at: cleansing, purification, teharah. Atonement is for acts. Purification is for persons.

On that note I've found one other law that is similar a bit in the two animals, in this case it's birds.

1 Then the L-RD said to Moses,
2 “This is the law of the one afflicted with a skin disease on the day of his cleansing, when he is brought to the priest.
3 The priest is to go outside the camp to examine him, and if the skin disease of the afflicted person has healed,
4 the priest shall order that two live clean birds, cedar wood, scarlet yarn, and hyssop be brought for the one to be cleansed.

5 Then the priest shall command that one of the birds be slaughtered over fresh water in a clay pot. 6 And he is to take the live bird together with the cedar wood, scarlet yarn, and hyssop, and dip them into the blood of the bird that was slaughtered over the fresh water. 7 Seven times he shall sprinkle the one to be cleansed of the skin disease. Then he shall pronounce him clean and release the live bird into the open field.
 
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chunkofcoal

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The scapegoat represents Yeshua taking the sins of Israel far away. It cannot represent Satan or Israel since "atonement" is made by that goat (Leviticus 16:10).
So then was Israel atoned for by Yeshua?
Had Israel been atoned for when they were exiled?
What about what Caiaphas prophesied? -
Joh 11:49-53 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, (50) Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. (51) And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; (52) And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. (53) Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
The ritual needed two 'goats'.

Some believe Isaiah 53 is about Yeshua, some believe it is about Israel, but what if it is both?
 
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Laureate

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And also the Atonement Goat....in order for it to be as the practice leading up to this was done, where was the blood sprinkled and by whom?

Furthermore, the lambs were slaughtered by the Israelites, privately by each family, and the priests poured the blood on the base of the altar.​

The Blood (of the Covenant shed for the remission of sins) was sprinkled on the Skull (Golgotha).

"When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see you to it.

Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children." [Matthew 27:24-25]

The Blood was Sprinkled by the hands of People.
 
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gadar perets

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So then was Israel atoned for by Yeshua?
Yes, as was the entire world, but only if they receive the one who atoned for their sins.

Had Israel been atoned for when they were exiled?
If you are referring to the Babylonian exile, then yes, but only temporarily and not by Yeshua's atoning sacrifice. If you mean their exile after 70 CE, then yes, if they receive Yeshua.

What about what Caiaphas prophesied? -
Joh 11:49-53 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, (50) Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. (51) And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; (52) And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. (53) Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
Yeshua died and atoned for all Israel, but his atoning sacrifice only takes effect in an individual when that person receives him as their atoning sacrifice. IMHO.

The ritual needed two 'goats'.
Some believe Isaiah 53 is about Yeshua, some believe it is about Israel, but what if it is both?
The only ones who believe it is about Israel are those who reject Yeshua. It is ONLY about Yeshua. The entire context refers to one single man. The NT confirms this as well.
 
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chunkofcoal

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Yes, as was the entire world, but only if they receive the one who atoned for their sins.


If you are referring to the Babylonian exile, then yes, but only temporarily and not by Yeshua's atoning sacrifice. If you mean their exile after 70 CE, then yes, if they receive Yeshua.


Yeshua died and atoned for all Israel, but his atoning sacrifice only takes effect in an individual when that person receives him as their atoning sacrifice. IMHO.


The only ones who believe it is about Israel are those who reject Yeshua. It is ONLY about Yeshua. The entire context refers to one single man. The NT confirms this as well.

If Israel wasn't atoned for by Yeshua, then they were sent into exile/the wilderness bearing their sins.

As for your last comments, yes, it is about Yeshua. But some believe Israel is one single man.
But that is a whole other topic to argue about sometime.
 
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Laureate

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Scripture does not need to be fulfilled in every exact detail. For example, both goats were selected by lots, but Yeshua wasn't selected in that way; the blood needed to be sprinkled from a man's finger upon a man made mercy seat, but Yeshua's blood was not applied in that way; the Passover lamb needed to be literally eaten, but the ultimate Passover Lamb (Yeshua) is not to be literally eaten; etc.

The mindset of a denominationalist will only develop a propensity and sanction a will to
fall away.

We excuse away the things which we do not comprehend, and we know that it is inappropriate when we see others doing it, but when we do it, it is supposed to look like wisdom.
 
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gadar perets

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If Israel wasn't atoned for by Yeshua, then they were sent into exile/the wilderness bearing their sins.
How could Israel be atoned for by Yeshua before they were sent into the wilderness if he hadn't died yet? What exile and what wilderness are you referring to?
 
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gadar perets

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The mindset of a denominationalist will only develop a propensity and sanction a will to fall away.

We excuse away the things which we do not comprehend, and we know that it is inappropriate when we see others doing it, but when we do it, it is supposed to look like wisdom.
I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not. If not, then point out where I am wrong. BTW, I am a non-denominationalist.
 
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Lulav

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This is what I said

The goat that was left alive had all the sins of Israel placed upon it and sent back to where they came from, the initiator of sins, Azazel, the goat demon or aka HaSatan.

The fact that both goats had to be unblemished before lots were drawn shows neither one could represent Satan. Neither can Satan be an atonement for sin. There are many verses showing that was Yeshua's honor.

Where did I say that the goat was Satan? I said the sins were sent back to him. Yes, Yeshua was both goats, the one whose blood made atonement and the one who took away the sins.

Because one would represent Yeshua's blood purifying the heavenly things and the other would represent Yeshua's removal of our sins.


To teach us that man's Atonement is totally YHWH's doing.


The fact that both goats had to be unblemished before lots were drawn shows neither one could represent Satan. Neither can Satan be an atonement for sin. There are many verses showing that was Yeshua's honor.

Leviticus 16:22; "And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness."
Now consider the following;

Isaiah 53:6c - "And YHWH hath laid on him (Yeshua) the iniquity of us all."
The sins of Israel were laid on Yeshua. They were placed upon him and him alone.

Isaiah 53:11c - "For he (Yeshua) shall bear their iniquities ."

Isaiah 53:12d - "And he (Yeshua) bare the sin of many ..."
Yeshua is the one who bore our sins. He carried them away upon his own head which is what the Hebrew 'cabal' (bare) means.

Isaiah 53:4a - "Surely he (Yeshua) hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:"
Yeshua is the sin-bearer, not Satan.

Hebrews 9:28a - "So Messiah was once offered to bear the sins of many;"

1 Peter 2:24a - "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree."
There is no other sin-bearer.

The act of laying on of hands (vs.21; also; Leviticus 1:4; 3:2; 4:4,15,29,33) symbolizes the transference of sins from the guilty party (the children of Israel) to the innocent (azazel). The innocent then becomes the sin-bearer. Yeshua undeniably fulfills the type (Isaiah 53:4,6,11,12). Satan, however, cannot fulfill the type because he is not innocent. It will not satisfy the justice of YHWH to transfer the sins of the guilty to another guilty party. Since lots were used to decide which goat was "for YHWH," it meant that both goats had to be unblemished. The antitype of an unblemished goat was the sinlessness of Messiah. Can it be said that Satan is sinless and was to be represented by an unblemished goat?

I never claimed HaSatan was the sin bearer. Let's take a look at this again.

Leviticus 16:22; "And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness."


I think that is to represent the place called 'Hell'

Interestingly enough this passage is about the Goats and the Sheep

The Sheep and the Goats --Matthew 25:41

…40 And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’
41 Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink,…
 
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ralliann

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They are reconciled by the fact that Yeshua could not be sacrificed on both days. YHWH chose Passover for Messiah's death, but that one death fulfills sacrifices on multiple days.
Yes, the sacrifices were shadows and types of his one time for all Sacrifice.

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

I think it is Passover because the Passover is a sacrifice of the feast which memorializes the fulfillment of the promises given to and through the Abrahamic covenant. So also is the feast of unleavened bread, firstfruits, (these are all to do with their inheritance of the land) & resurrection .. So you could say, the Lord's supper is a Passover memorial we keep in the knowledge of his faithfulness to Abraham.
Only the circumcised (in heart) may eat
Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
 
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gadar perets

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Where did I say that the goat was Satan? I said the sins were sent back to him. Yes, Yeshua was both goats, the one whose blood made atonement and the one who took away the sins.
Here is where you said it;

The goat that was left alive had all the sins of Israel placed upon it and sent back to where they came from, the initiator of sins, Azazel, the goat demon or aka HaSatan.​

The goat that was sent into the wilderness (the scapegoat) is Azazel (Leviticus 16:8). You called HaSatan "Azazel". Therefore, you are calling the scapegoat "HaSatan". If not, then your words were in error and totally unclear as to what you really meant. HaSatan is NOT Azazel.
 
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The goat with sins kept coming back to Jerusalem. Sin kept returning. Lol.
Why is that funny? I think it was rather prophetic of the spiritual condition of Israel and the temporary nature of an atonement through animal blood.
 
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