Newly Released Movie about Dispensational Theology:

Watching it now.

Thank you.

(I will, just like our beloved Bereans-as mentioned in the New Testament-will be weighing and comparing all that is said in the video, against God's Word, and praying as i do.)

God bless you.

Newly Released Movie about Dispensational Theology:

This site has an extensive study of that doctrine for those interested, and it was helpful when I was debating that doctrine years ago [I rarely debate against it now [or Roman Catholicism].

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library
.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking. So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place........

Dispensational Approach to Interpreting the Bible

When one allows God himself to interpret the meaning of his prophecies through later revelation, it becomes impossible to employ a naturalistic, Dispensational hermeneutic. Dispensationalists claim to have a literal hermeneutic, taking prophecies in a simple, material sense unless the immediate context demands otherwise. The problem with this approach is that it arrives at interpretations which are later contradicted by the New Testament.

In opposition to this principle, Covenant Theologians recognize the validity of “the analogy of faith,” that is, that the best interpreter of scriptures is other scriptures. The hermeneutic which allows the Author to foreshadow spiritual realities through physical means, and later interpret them in clear, didactic writing, is actually a more natural and literal hermeneutic than one which demands a physical/material sense unless an immediate absurdity arises thereby, even when other scriptures contradict this physical/material sense.

The basic question is this: will our hermeneutic allow God to explain himself, or will it allow our own human understanding of what is more literal to negate the interpretation of God himself?
===============================================
There is also a view of 7 dispensations which I had forgotten about until now:

Dispensations in the Bible

In the Bible, the divine history of man is ordered within the framework of seven dispensations. It commences with the creation of Adam and Eve in paradise and culminates in the new heaven and new earth where an eternal perfect existence will prevail. The seven dispensations are:

1. The dispensation of innocence in paradise.
2. The dispensation of the conscience after the Fall.
3. The dispensation of the law in the Old Testament.
4. The dispensation of grace in the church age.
5. The dispensation of the Antichrist.
6. The dispensation of the millennial kingdom.
7. The dispensation of perfection in eternity.

The beginning and end of a dispensation are always marked by dramatic events associated with the unfolding of a new aspect of God’s plan for the ages. They are also accompanied by intensified demonic activities as Satan then tries everything in his power to upset God’s plan. The main characteristics of the seven dispensations are as follows:.........................
============================================================

I now focus mainly on the 2 Covenants in the 2 Testaments of the Bible..including Revelation.

I had never really read this passage of Romans 7 as being Covenantle until I was studying on the 2 "Covenantle Women" in Revelation.
Note Paul is speaking of a husband and wife relationship under the Law:

Romans 7:
1 Are ye ignorant, brethren — for to those knowing law I speak — that the law hath lordship over the man as long as he liveth? 2 for the married woman to the living husband hath been bound by law, and if the husband may die, she hath been free from the law of the husband;
3 so then, the husband being alive, an adulteress<3428> she shall be called if she may become another man’s; and if the husband may die, she is free from the law, so as not to be an adulteress, having become another man’s.
6 and now we have ceased from the law, that being dead in which we were held, so that we may serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.

If you look at this great City/Harlot in Revelation, She is exclaiming that She "is not a widow", meaning She is married, but to whom/what?

Revelation 17:
1 And One of the seven Messengers came out having the seven bowls and He speaks with me saying to me "Hither thou! I shall be showing to thee the judgement of the great Prostitute<4204>, the One sitting upon the many waters"
3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness.
And I saw a Woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Revelation 18:7 So as She glorifies Herself and indulges so much, be ye giving! to Her torment and mourning. That in the heart of Her She is saying
'I am sitting a Queen, and a Widow not I am,
and mourning not no I may be seeing'

Matthew 21:31
“Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said to Him, “The first.”
Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots<4204> enter the kingdom of God before you.

Click to expand...

And there is of course this famous passage where Paul defines exactly what the 2 Covenants are to the born again Christian Saints of the New Covenant:

Galatians 4:
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under Law,
21 Tell me, ye who are willing to be under Law, the law do ye not hear? 22 for it hath been written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the maid-servant, and one by the free-woman, 23 but he who [is] of the maid-servant, according to flesh hath been, and he who [is] of the free-woman, through the promise;
24 which things are allegorized, for these are the two covenants:
one, indeed, from mount Sinai, to servitude bringing forth, which is Hagar;
25 for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and doth correspond to the Jerusalem that now [is], and is in servitude with her children,
26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all,
27 for it hath been written, ‘Rejoice, O barren, who art not bearing; break forth and cry, thou who art not travailing, because many [are] the children of the desolate — more than of her having the husband.’



.

BABerean2 said:

I am not endorsing every word spoken by the men in this movie.

Judge it based on scripture, and the historical record.

.

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Hi I do not have the time to watch all of this right now but after 8:30 seconds can already make several refutations of what was presented. The breaking up of the historical periods of time and calling them dispensations is a historical fact. There was a pre flood and post flood and a time of exodus then judges and kings and then Jesus and the new covenant. The lie being told here is that dispensationalist teach another gospel for salvation. I am dispensationaal and can tell you what Paul teaches Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness is salvation through faith by grace. When we see in Rev 5 the multitude in heaven out of every tribe tongue and nation they say they were redeemed by the blood of the lamb. In the gospel we see Abraham's bosom and those who were saved by faith like Abraham who believed God have been accounted as righteous were under the earth in comfort until Jesus accomplished His work of the cross defeating sin and death. So this major point that is the foundation of this video is already proved to be completely bogus. As Hebrews bring up by faith all the great works form all these dispensational periods and the common thread is by faith... We have no other program for salvation.
The 2nd major lie is the Darby is in the inventor of dispensational theology. His influence is certainly a factor in modern views no doubt but a good book
Dispensationalism Before Darby
byWilliam C. Watson proves beyond doubt that Darby in not the originator of this idea and trying to make the case that he took this idea solely from a girls dream is also disingenuous.

Wonderful book. This absolutely blows apart the theory that J.N. Darby invented Dispensationalism and the Pretrib rapture. All the essential ideas associated with Dispensationalism were being discussed for a couple of centuries before Darby. Though a fully systematized Dispensationalism did not seem to appear before Darby, the significant ideas had been thoroughly discussed. Watson does a wonderful job documenting the richness of Anglican, Puritan, and Separatist thought in 16th and 17th century England, the American Colonies, France and Holland.

I will watch more later and ad to this rebuttal.

Brian Mcnamee said:

Hi I do not have the time to watch all of this right now but after 8:30 seconds can already make several refutations of what was presented. The breaking up of the historical periods of time and calling them dispensations is a historical fact. There was a pre flood and post flood and a time of exodus then judges and kings and then Jesus and the new covenant. The lie being told here is that dispensationalist teach another gospel for salvation. I am dispensationaal and can tell you what Paul teaches Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness is salvation through faith by grace. When we see in Rev 5 the multitude in heaven out of every tribe tongue and nation they say they were redeemed by the blood of the lamb. In the gospel we see Abraham's bosom and those who were saved by faith like Abraham who believed God have been accounted as righteous were under the earth in comfort until Jesus accomplished His work of the cross defeating sin and death. So this major point that is the foundation of this video is already proved to be completely bogus. As Hebrews bring up by faith all the great works form all these dispensational periods and the common thread is by faith... We have no other program for salvation.
The 2nd major lie is the Darby is in the inventor of dispensational theology. His influence is certainly a factor in modern views no doubt but a good book
Dispensationalism Before Darby
byWilliam C. Watson proves beyond doubt that Darby in not the originator of this idea and trying to make the case that he took this idea solely from a girls dream is also disingenuous.

Wonderful book. This absolutely blows apart the theory that J.N. Darby invented Dispensationalism and the Pretrib rapture. All the essential ideas associated with Dispensationalism were being discussed for a couple of centuries before Darby. Though a fully systematized Dispensationalism did not seem to appear before Darby, the significant ideas had been thoroughly discussed. Watson does a wonderful job documenting the richness of Anglican, Puritan, and Separatist thought in 16th and 17th century England, the American Colonies, France and Holland.

I will watch more later and ad to this rebuttal.

Click to expand...

Good info.
One thing I have never really done was delve into the ECF's view of Eschatology back in the 1st couple of centuries. I found this site informative.........

Theology Adrift: The Early Church Fathers and Their Views of Eschatology

Theology Adrift: The Early Church Fathers and Their Views of Eschatology
Related Media
Chapter One:
Introduction
In 1962, philosopher-scientist Thomas Kuhn coined the term "paradigm shift" to signal a massive change in the way a community thinks about a particular topic.1 Examples of paradigm shifts include Copernicus's discovery that the earth revolves around the sun, Einstein's theory of relativity, and Darwin's theory of evolution. Each changed the world of thought (some for better, some for worse) in a fundamental way.

From a political perspective, Constantine's Edict of Milan, issued in AD 313, constituted the formal beginning of a major paradigm shift that signaled the end of the ancient world and the beginning of the medieval period. That edict legitimated Christianity and impressed upon it the Empire's stamp of approval. It provided in pertinent part:...

From a theological perspective -- specifically an eschatological one -- the Edict of Milan also signaled a monumental paradigm shift -- from the well-grounded premillennialism of the ancient church fathers to the amillennialism or postmillennialism that would dominate eschatological thinking from the fourth century AD to at least the middle part of the nineteenth century.4 Yet, as explored below, the groundwork for this shift was laid long before Constantine issued the Edict of Milan in AD 313...

This paper explores these two interpretive errors on the part of the post-apostolic fathers that set the doctrine of eschatology adrift from its secure biblical moorings and resulted in an acute paradigm shift from premillennialism to amillennialism.
But first we must address a foundational question: Why do we care? Why does it matter what the early church father believed about eschatology anyway? Don't we as conservative Protestants embrace sola Scriptura? Isn't that enough? The answer to these questions is discussed in Chapter Two.
[there was a thread concerning that some time back:

Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?
Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

simonthezealot said:

Their theology was wrong in many areas, there were many different interpretations of the same scriptures and in many cases they had next to NO access to bounce their ideas off of other great theological minds...So what gives? why the heavy leanings for understanding? Essentially the scriptures they used and the ones we use have remained unchanged, less some poor translations. It does not seem plausible to hang ones salvation on an early 3rds or 4th century interpretation of the same scripture we have NOW.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Chapter Two:
Why Study the Eschatological
Views of the Early Church Fathers
It is a fair question to ask: "Why do we care about the eschatological views of the early church fathers?" We as evangelicals emphatically agree with Hodge that "the true method of theology. . . assumes that the Bible contains all the facts or truths which form the contents of theology."5 As Ryrie cogently put it:

The fact that something was taught in the first century does not make it right (unless taught in the canonical Scriptures), and the fact that something was not taught until the nineteenth century does not make it wrong unless, of course, it is unscriptural.6


Chapter Six:
Conclusion
The early church fathers deserve great admiration for their courage to stand boldly for Christ, even at the cost of their lives. They shame us in our worldliness. The writings of the early church fathers also deserve serious study. These men lived in the shadow of the apostolic age. Some of them personally walked and talked with the apostles. Yet while the early fathers are to be seriously studied and respected, they are not to be venerated.
As we have seen, like us, they too were fallible, capable of error.

.... It was also easy for Justin Martyr to spiritualize the Old Testament in order to see more of New Testament Christianity in it, and thereby refute the Gnostics who denied the Old Testament's place in God's revelation to man.
The lesson for us is that we must continually guard against interpreting the Bible according to current events -- a point often lost on some of dispensational millennialism's more popular proponents.83

The bottom line, of course, is that we must continually go back to the Scriptures as our only source for "doing theology." As much as we may respect and admire the early church fathers, or, for that matter, the reformers, the puritans, or a particular modern spiritual leader, we must always remember to be Bereans, checking their conclusions and reasoning against the plumb line of God's Word.

No one could put it more clearly or forcefully than Martin Luther as he boldly and defiantly proclaimed before the Diet of Worms: "Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason -- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other -- my conscience is captive to the Word of God. . . . Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise."

=======================================================



.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Good info.
One thing I have never really done was delve into the ECF's view of Eschatology back in the 1st couple of centuries. I found this site informative.........

Theology Adrift: The Early Church Fathers and Their Views of Eschatology

Theology Adrift: The Early Church Fathers and Their Views of Eschatology
Related Media
Chapter One:
Introduction
In 1962, philosopher-scientist Thomas Kuhn coined the term "paradigm shift" to signal a massive change in the way a community thinks about a particular topic.1 Examples of paradigm shifts include Copernicus's discovery that the earth revolves around the sun, Einstein's theory of relativity, and Darwin's theory of evolution. Each changed the world of thought (some for better, some for worse) in a fundamental way.

From a political perspective, Constantine's Edict of Milan, issued in AD 313, constituted the formal beginning of a major paradigm shift that signaled the end of the ancient world and the beginning of the medieval period. That edict legitimated Christianity and impressed upon it the Empire's stamp of approval. It provided in pertinent part:...

From a theological perspective -- specifically an eschatological one -- the Edict of Milan also signaled a monumental paradigm shift -- from the well-grounded premillennialism of the ancient church fathers to the amillennialism or postmillennialism that would dominate eschatological thinking from the fourth century AD to at least the middle part of the nineteenth century.4 Yet, as explored below, the groundwork for this shift was laid long before Constantine issued the Edict of Milan in AD 313...

This paper explores these two interpretive errors on the part of the post-apostolic fathers that set the doctrine of eschatology adrift from its secure biblical moorings and resulted in an acute paradigm shift from premillennialism to amillennialism.
But first we must address a foundational question: Why do we care? Why does it matter what the early church father believed about eschatology anyway? Don't we as conservative Protestants embrace sola Scriptura? Isn't that enough? The answer to these questions is discussed in Chapter Two.
[there was a thread concerning that some time back:

Chapter Two:
Why Study the Eschatological
Views of the Early Church Fathers
It is a fair question to ask: "Why do we care about the eschatological views of the early church fathers?" We as evangelicals emphatically agree with Hodge that "the true method of theology. . . assumes that the Bible contains all the facts or truths which form the contents of theology."5 As Ryrie cogently put it:

The fact that something was taught in the first century does not make it right (unless taught in the canonical Scriptures), and the fact that something was not taught until the nineteenth century does not make it wrong unless, of course, it is unscriptural.6


Chapter Six:
Conclusion
The early church fathers deserve great admiration for their courage to stand boldly for Christ, even at the cost of their lives. They shame us in our worldliness. The writings of the early church fathers also deserve serious study. These men lived in the shadow of the apostolic age. Some of them personally walked and talked with the apostles. Yet while the early fathers are to be seriously studied and respected, they are not to be venerated. As we have seen, like us, they too were fallible, capable of error.

.... It was also easy for Justin Martyr to spiritualize the Old Testament in order to see more of New Testament Christianity in it, and thereby refute the Gnostics who denied the Old Testament's place in God's revelation to man. The lesson for us is that we must continually guard against interpreting the Bible according to current events -- a point often lost on some of dispensational millennialism's more popular proponents.83

The bottom line, of course, is that we must continually go back to the Scriptures as our only source for "doing theology." As much as we may respect and admire the early church fathers, or, for that matter, the reformers, the puritans, or a particular modern spiritual leader, we must always remember to be Bereans, checking their conclusions and reasoning against the plumb line of God's Word. No one could put it more clearly or forcefully than Martin Luther as he boldly and defiantly proclaimed before the Diet of Worms: "Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason -- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other -- my conscience is captive to the Word of God. . . . Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise."

=======================================================



.

Click to expand...

Great post with good information. Moses has two songs recorded, the other is Deuteronomy 32, How can you be sure which song they will be singing in Rev 15?

BABerean2 said:

I have a copy of Watson's book.
His claims do not match the historical record, or scripture.

The chief error of modern Dispensational Theology is the claim that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church, during a future time.
None of the Anglican's, Puritans, etc. ever promoted this belief.

Watson says that many of the earlier sources believed the Church would be "caught up" before the "conflagration", and this makes them "Dispensationalists".
I believe the same thing and am by no means a "Dispensationalist".

.

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Hi if you read Zech 14 it is the day the LORD comes with all his saints. It is the day they cry the LORD is king over all the earth and He is seen coming to Jerusalem to save them when it is being overrun and God is melting the enemies in a graphic way. This is also when they will say the LORD is one. This is Jesus having come and is now king over all the earth. Those who are left must now keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain and the MT of Olives splits in two creating a river that flows year round and a new valley as well. This is not metaphor.
Jer 3
17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers. israel is saved outside of the church and by the Joseph moment when Jesus is revealed at the 2nd coming. In Isaiah 61 Jesus proclaims the acceptable year of the LORD. This same one is bringing in the day of vengeance of God. here is the passage and this is accomplished at the end of the day of vengeance /tribulation and onset of the millennium.

o proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

Note the distinction of Zion and Gentiles. This is a global era of righteousness. This is when Jesus is king over all the earth and yes there is still Zion and Gentiles.

Brian Mcnamee said:

Hi if you read Zech 14 it is the day the LORD comes with all his saints.......

Click to expand...

Hi Brian,

Just a point here on Zechariah 14 and who comes with the Lord.

`Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the HOLY ONES with Him.` (Zech. 14: 5 NAS)

Holy ones - from the Hebrew `quodos,` meaning sacred, holy.

Most Bible interpretations have `holy ones` or `holy angels` however a couple of versions have written `saints` and this has caused some confusion. If we read all scripture on this point it becomes quite clear that it is the Lord Jesus, Israel`s Messiah, coming to earth with His HOLY ANGELS to judge the nations and deliver Israel.

Jesus, Himself tells us that His mighty angels will be with Him when He returns to judge and deliver.

`when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the HOLY ANGELS with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

regards, Marilyn.

Marilyn C said:

Hi Brian,

Just a point here on Zechariah 14 and who comes with the Lord.

`Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the HOLY ONES with Him.` (Zech. 14: 5 NAS)

Holy ones - from the Hebrew `quodos,` meaning sacred, holy.

Most Bible interpretations have `holy ones` or `holy angels` however a couple of versions have written `saints` and this has caused some confusion. If we read all scripture on this point it becomes quite clear that it is the Lord Jesus, Israel`s Messiah, coming to earth with His HOLY ANGELS to judge the nations and deliver Israel.

Jesus, Himself tells us that His mighty angels will be with Him when He returns to judge and deliver.

`when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the HOLY ANGELS with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

regards, Marilyn.

Click to expand...

Also used in 1 Thess 3:13 concerning the "parousia" in Matthew 24:

Zeph 1:7
Be hushed! in presence my Lord Yahweh, that near Day of Yahweh.
That Yahweh prepares a Sacrifice, He sanctifies/hallows ones-being-Called/#2822 klhtouv of Him.

Matthew 24:3
He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when? shall these be and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,

1 Thessalonians 3:13
to the establishing your hearts blameless in sanctification before our God and Father, in the parousia<3952> of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His Saints<ἁγίων g40>.



.

LittleLambofJesus said:

1 Thessalonians 3:13
to the establishing your hearts blameless in sanctification before our God and Father, in the parousia<3952> of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His Saints<ἁγίων g40>.

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Hi LittleLambofJesus,

Good to look at that scripture and realise that the Holy Spirit is referring to when the Lord is coming for His body with those who have been asleep in Him.

`For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will BRING WITH HIM THOSE WHO SLEEP IN JESUS.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

That is not the coming of the Lord with his angelic army to bring vengeance upon the rebellious and deliver Israel. That is the coming of the Lord with those who are asleep in Him to connect with the other of His Body. They will all be changed and go to be with the Lord to heaven.

regards, Marilyn.

BABerean2 said:

Former pretrib believer Steven Straub, son of a Baptist preacher and author of the book "Changed", reveals the truth about the timing of the gathering of the Church.

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Hi BABerean,

I can see why Steven Straub believes what he says, however.....he has made one great error -

The Day of the Lord is a time period AND one special day. The Greek word `hemera` means a 24 hour day and a period of time. Scripture clearly shows both meanings, as many events occur during the `Day` time period and also the Lord comes on a special `Day` to bring vengeance upon the rebellious and deliverance to Israel.

Also the apostle Paul by the Holy Spirit encourages the believers that they are not in darkness that the `Day` the time period, would over take them -

`concerning the times and the seasons.....` (1 Thess. 5: 1)
`you, brethren are not in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

Thus the speakers deductions are incorrect, and unbiblical.

Marilyn.

This guys are a joke. I am now through 20 minutes of the presentation. Ive gone to many a church that often the speaker will look up the Greek word and then expand the definition beyond what is in the text to try to show a clearer meaning. The attack on Darby for his Romans 3 comment on using the word superior as a claim he was manipulating the text is not a good place to make an attack. Here is the entry in strongs for the word Darby used to get superior.

1. exceeding some number or measure or rank or need
   
   1. over and above, more than is necessary, superadded
      
      1. exceeding abundantly, supremely
         
         
      2. something further, more, much more than all, more plainly
         
   2. superior, extraordinary, surpassing, uncommon
      
      1. pre-eminence, superiority, advantage, more eminent, more remarkable, more excellent

This session continued to reinforce the lie that we teach there is another salvation other than by faith. Sacrifices without a repentant heart are worthless and God looks at the one who is contrite in heart. Here is a 45 minute prophecy update by a guy who believes in the rapture, the salvation of Israel and the millennium. He gets to the end where you would maintain this man is a dangerous heretic and he preaches a ready repented life and shares clearly the gospel. This man has zeal for the lost and passion for the LORD and believes God's word. If the salvation of Israel is scriptural and the prophecies literal who would be the one twisting the word of God? Those who believe the trib is near believe that the daily sacrifice will be returned for the abomination of desolation to occur in. All this is prepared for at a time when the world is plotting a one world government and aligning against Christianity. Every expectation the futurist hold is lined up with reality. I do not emphasize the rapture in my eschatology as there are so many more verses regarding the 7 years of tribulation preceding the 2nd coming and establishing of the earthly reign of Christ from Jerusalem I stick to this timeline and events as sure and determined.

BABerean2 said:

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.
The event is described at the end of chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5.
The pretrib doctrine only works by dividing the two chapters.
No trip back to heaven is found in the passage.
It must be imported from another location to make the pretrib doctrine work.

Click to expand...

Hi BABerean,

That is right, the `we` is in both chapters, I agree. The Apostle Paul by the Holy Spirit is not wanting the believers to be ignorant or sorrowful concerning those who had gone to be with the Lord. God will send those `asleep` in Christ with Him to connect with the Body on earth.

Then in Ch. 5 we read of the timing. It will be before the Day of the Lord, time period. The Apostle Paul reminds the believer that they know the `times` of the Lord and the `seasons,` (feast days looking to their fulfilment). The believers know that the Day of the Lord, time period, will not overtake them as they are not in darkness. The Holy Spirit within them will enable them to discern. (And exhorting each other all the more as you SEE the Day approaching. Heb. 10:25)

The `Day of the Lord` time period is when God pours out His wrath. This is the Greek word `orge` expressing wrath, anger, vengeance with connotations of punishment. To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. (Is. 26: 21)

For any topic we need the WHOLE of God`s word.

Marilyn.

Marilyn C said:

The `Day of the Lord` time period is when God pours out His wrath. This is the Greek word `orge` expressing wrath, anger, vengeance with connotations of punishment. To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. (Is. 26: 21)

For any topic we need the WHOLE of God`s word.
Marilyn.

Click to expand...

Hello Marilyn. Have you ever look at where various forms of a greek word is used?
I like this lexicon/concordance because where you do a search for a greek word, it also provided you the various forms of the koine greek of it.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number G3709 matches the Greek ὀργή (orgē),
which occurs 36 times in 34 verses
mGNT — 36x in 6 unique form(s) TR — 36x in 6 unique form(s)
ὀργὴ — 9x
ὀργή — 1x
ὀργῇ — 3x
ὀργὴν — 6x
ὀργήν — 3x
ὀργῆς — 14x

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers!
Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath/ ὀργῆς<3709> to come?

Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,“Brood of vipers!
Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> to come?

Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be fulfilled all the having been written, .
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath/ὀργὴ <3709> upon this people.

1Thessalonians 2:16
forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins;
but the wrath/ὀργὴ <3709> has come upon them to the uttermost.

Revelation 6
16 - and they say to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 “For the great day of His wrath<3709> has come, and who is able to stand?”


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