Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

Jason0047 said:

No. Not everyone in the early church was able to speak in tongues.

This fact is obvious by the following Scripture.

4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."
(1 Corinthians 12:4-11).

"Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? " (1 Corinthians 12:30).

Do all speak with tongues?

Obviously... "no."

Click to expand...

When we apply comprehension 101 to what Paul said, we get the following:
"I would that you all spoke in tongues"
This means that his desire is that all the members of the Corinthian church, and every other church (if we read 1 Corinthians 1 to see who the letter was addressed to besides the Corinthians) spoke in tongues.
When we look at this sentence inferentially, we see that if he desired that they all spoke in tongues, then it implies that they would have been able to speak in tongues, because why would he express the desire that they all spoke in tongues if he thought they would not have been able to?

When he said,"Do all speak in tongues?" he is clearly inferring that not everyone speaks in tongues. The answer cannot be "yes" because that would not be consistent with the inference. When a person asks that type of question, he is inferring that not all speak in tongues, rather than, yes, all do speak in tongues.

But it is wrong to say from Paul's question that not all are able to speak in tongues, otherwise he would have asked, "Are all able to speak in tongues?" inferring that not all are able to exercise the gift. But Paul did not ask his question that way.

What is inferred is that some speak in tongues and others decide not to for a number of reasons. If someone says that the reason why some don't speak in tongues because they are unable to, they are being inconsistent with Paul's sentence, "I would that you all speak in tongues." It would make Paul out to be unfair, to encourage people to speak in tongues when in fact they were not able to.

I think a lot of folk are spooked out of receiving the gift through the evil and perverse teaching of cessationists who deceitfully misuse God's Word, quoting Scripture out of context. Unless they repent of their lies and deceit, it will absolutely SUCK to be them in the Judgment!

Pavel Mosko said:

Yes what your describing sounds a lot like what I believe and as described in theological terms as "theosis" (Eastern Christianity) and is the meaning of controversial “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.” (Psalm 82:6)

Click to expand...

The background to the Scripture "You are gods" is from Eve becoming her own "god" in being able to discern between good and evil after eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God said as much when He said, "They have become like us", and the devil telling Eve that she will be like God if she ate of the tree.

So the verse, in its context, shows that because the people have rebelled against God and are going their own way, they have become their own "little gods". This is what Jesus said to the Pharisees, that because they depended on their own interpretation of the Scripture instead of seeking God to reveal it to them, they also have become their own gods instead of being faithful to the living God.

Jason0047 said:

1 Corinthians 13 is talking about our seeing Christ face to face but it is within seeing His reflection in us as we look into the perfect Law of Liberty (i.e. The Bible/Glass or Mirror) (See James 1).

Click to expand...

The problem with "the perfect law of liberty" if that refers to the Mosaic Law, is that Paul says that although the Law was good, because it was instituted by God, it was not good enough to bring salvation to us. The Law did not die for us on the cross. Jesus did and set us free from the requirements of the Law. Therefore to try and link the Mosaic Law with the canon of the New Testament, which did not even exist in Paul's or James' time, is an impossible twist of Scripture to prove a point.

I think you are trying to make the Bible say something it is not saying at all. It is on the same level as a young guy in the church who fell in love with a young woman called Joy, and got a Scripture to prove that God was in the relationship: "You shall go out with Joy!" So, on the basis of that Scripture he believed that he could ask Joy out on a date and God will make sure she says, "yes".

Then when he was unsuccessful with Joy, he set his sights on another young woman called Grace, and he got the Scripture, "Grace to you...from the Lord Jesus Christ", so, he believed that Grace was the woman given to him by Jesus.

So anyone can make the Bible say anything to support what they believe.

Jason0047 said:

I don’t believe we shall be as gods. I do realize that the Israelites were called gods, but this was in reference to them being rulers and not actual god like beings in substance or power.

Click to expand...

All we have to do is to apply hermeneutics 101 to the Scriptures you have quoted and your theories go down in a ball of flame!

Jason0047 said:

Scripture is not taught in the wisdom of men but by the anointing of the Holy Ghost. People tend to not see things they don’t want to see in Scripture for their own reasons whether they are an English teacher or not.

Click to expand...

The Holy Spirit does not quote Scripture out of context, and does not violate the normal rules of comprehension and hermeneutics. But deceivers and heretics, inspired by other spirits tend to do it quite often.

Verse 2 defines speaking in an unknown tongue as praying because it says that he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God. Speaking unto God is praying.

Click to expand...

This is true.

In fact, when you read verses 15 and 16 together, it suggests that this is public prayer because it asks the question on how can someone say “Amen” if they do not understand what you say?

Click to expand...

Your suggestion is wrong. Paul is talking about speaking out publicly in tongues instead of prophesying. When Paul says "speaking to himself and to God" not not imply public prayer at all! I just don't know how you can say that "speaking to himself" can be inferred as public out loud praying! Even a 10 year old elementary school child would disagree with that!

Also, the majority of the chapter deals with the criticism of speaking in tongues without an interpreter and says that tongues are for a sign to unbelievers and if there is no interpreter, the person’s understanding is unfruitful and they are not edifying the church. Paul says let all things be done towards edification.

Click to expand...

You have missed "yet in the church" which implies that a person who wishes to speak "to himself and to God" can better do it outside of the church service. It seems that you are plucking sentences out of the chapter to try and prove your point, and ignoring others that shows reasonable doubt.

Furthermore, the only three verses that may suggest talking in tongues outside of church are verses 18, 19, and 28.

Click to expand...

That means nothing. John 3:16 is just one verse, yet the whole gospel is built on it.

Verses 18-19 does not specifically distinguish between praying outside the church vs. inside the church. Paul never says he prays or speaks in tongues outside the church. As I illustrated before, a Sergeant can correct one of his own men by saying, “In the army we do it this way...”. This is how I see Paul speaking when he says, “Yet, in the church I had rather speak...” Note: Paul also could be referring to being with one or two other brethren and not a large gathering of believers (church).

Click to expand...

Proves nothing.

Verse 28 does not specify how exactly they are to speak to themselves and unto God. Assumptions are made that he would speak in tongues.

Click to expand...

A 10 year old elementary school child will quite rightly infer that when a person speaks to themselves and to God, it will be in private prayer.

Jesus gave strict instructions that when a person wants to pray, they go into a secret place with God so that when they pray in secret, God will reward them openly. Jesus tended to criticise long public prayers, and said that when people praise the person for his great prayers, that's all the reward they will ever get. This very reference causes your assertion that praying in English or tongues has to be in public, goes down in flames!

Jason0047 said:

Tongues and prophecy have ceased ~ 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says, “...whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;” and verse 8 says, “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” The question is when do tongues and prophecies cease? Verse 10 says “ when that which is perfect is come”; And verse 11 says, “when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Are we going to be children (and not men) upon this Earth until Christ takes us home?

Click to expand...

"where there is knowledge, it will pass away." (1 Corinthians 13:8). Has knowledge "passed away?

Jason0047 said:

Dear Oscar:

I don’t have a lot of time to address your lengthy posts; But please refrain from the inflammatory remarks. I would appreciate it.

As for the Bible and private tongue speaking: You have to show in the Bible those passages that talk about praying in tongues privately.

I think you are making inferences on certain verses (Where the Bible does not clearly talk about a private prayer version of tongues).

1 Corinthians 14 is dealing with tongues by public prayer whereby one needs an interpreter. Paul does not say clearly you can speak in tongues by yourself. He says the understanding is unfruitful if there is no interpretation and he says tongues are for unbelievers (Which is for a sign). We are also told to do all things for edification of the church.

May God’s love shine upon you.

Click to expand...

I made my comments about cessationism because I believe it is a false doctrine and those who teach it are false teachers.

Ever since I joined CF around 2006 there have been a fair number of cessationist threads and these have raked over the same arguments time after time. In each of these threads, I have requested a quote from anywhere in the New Testament that directly says that the supernatural gifts were meant to be just temporary, and not to continue right through the church age until Jesus comes again. In all the threads I have participated in, no one has been able to produce that evidence.

When Jesus told the disciples about the many mansions in Heaven, He said, "If it were not so, I would have told you." That is His attitude. Therefore, something so important as the cessation of the spiritual gifts at any time would have been clearly mentioned, either by Jesus or Paul, but there is just one half a verse, and obscure at that, which cessationists are relying on.

Anyone who has done a thorough study of the history of the church during the first six centuries will clearly see that the cessation of the supernatural gifts happened because the holiness and commitment to Christ declined through the vast numbers of "nominal" Christians who joined the church in the fourth century. God did not change His way of working with the church, the church changed into something totally different from the first century church. It became no longer a church that the Holy Spirit could work with in His supernatural power.

This was clearly stated in the writings of most of the church fathers, explaining their reasons for the decline of the supernatural gifts. There is no doubt that the supernatural gifts declined, but not for the reasons that cessationists claim.

Cessationists are not prepared to admit that our present divided churches are just a confusion of factionised man-made organisations depending on their own rituals and ceremonies which makes them "dead" in terms of any supernatural power.

Oscarr said:

When we apply comprehension 101 to what Paul said, we get the following:
"I would that you all spoke in tongues"
This means that his desire is that all the members of the Corinthian church, and every other church (if we read 1 Corinthians 1 to see who the letter was addressed to besides the Corinthians) spoke in tongues.
When we look at this sentence inferentially, we see that if he desired that they all spoke in tongues, then it implies that they would have been able to speak in tongues, because why would he express the desire that they all spoke in tongues if he thought they would not have been able to?

When he said,"Do all speak in tongues?" he is clearly inferring that not everyone speaks in tongues. The answer cannot be "yes" because that would not be consistent with the inference. When a person asks that type of question, he is inferring that not all speak in tongues, rather than, yes, all do speak in tongues.

But it is wrong to say from Paul's question that not all are able to speak in tongues, otherwise he would have asked, "Are all able to speak in tongues?" inferring that not all are able to exercise the gift. But Paul did not ask his question that way.

What is inferred is that some speak in tongues and others decide not to for a number of reasons. If someone says that the reason why some don't speak in tongues because they are unable to, they are being inconsistent with Paul's sentence, "I would that you all speak in tongues." It would make Paul out to be unfair, to encourage people to speak in tongues when in fact they were not able to.

I think a lot of folk are spooked out of receiving the gift through the evil and perverse teaching of cessationists who deceitfully misuse God's Word, quoting Scripture out of context. Unless they repent of their lies and deceit, it will absolutely SUCK to be them in the Judgment!

Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. All who believe are able to speak in tongues, Mark 16:16-18. So it is either some are reticent, or some are not believers yet.

Jason0047 said:

New revelation (prophecy) or new words from God are not to be added (Revelation 22:18-19). If a person were to add to God’s Word, the plagues that are within the book known as the Bible (not the plagues in Revelation) would be added to them. We have occurrences of this actually happening. See these two links here: Bible Correctors lose Voice Bible Corrector Loses Voice on Ankerberg Show

Click to expand...

Hi Jason, have a bit of disagreement on point 8. You seem to be assuming that prophecy is only about writing scripture and that is not the case. Agabus in the book of Acts didn't write any scripture that we know of (certainly nothing that was canonized). Samuel did not write any books about his revelations (rather his life was recorded by some sort of scribe alongside the various kings and judges as a writing and eventually canonized in the Samuel and Kings books). There is an early church writing AD 100-200 that was greatly respected by the Church known as the "Teaching of the Twelve apostles" Aka Didache that has two passages that regulate the gift of prophecy and of course at intermittent times in Church history there have been at various visions etc. from notable people that have been well regarded.


Anyway the Didache quotes refer to the regular/liturgical occurrence of prophecy during church service as simply part of worship, edification and so on (Chapters 11 and 13). (Something that I have seen also in my days.) Not only was the Didache well regarded in its day (just passed the time of the NT) but it was from generations to come that it made the early list for NT canonization
back when that process was started around 325 or so. Anyway, just something for you to consider...

Take Care, I got some feedback for point 9 Apostles which I may write late tonight or maybe tomorrow.

Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

Jason0047 said:

It is against forum rules to goad and or to say to other Christians here they are false teachers point blank. It also seems to be the thrust of your argument in each of your posts.

Although you are entitled to your opinion, I don't believe Scripture or reality supports your viewpoint.

First, nowhere does anyone today heal 100% at a given time by speaking alone, or by giving out their clothes, and or by their shadow. Paul was able to raise the dead. So to say that the gifts are in operation like that is simply not true, unless you would of course like to introduce me to those who can operate in this fashion exactly. In fact, even at the end of Paul's life, he appeared to no longer have this healing ability. When others were sick, he did not send them his clothes so they could be healed. For example: He gave Timothy medical advice for the infirmities of his stomach instead.

Second, Mark 16:20 says, "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen"

The word was confirmed by signs following. This is a theme in the Bible actually. One you ignore, friend. When Moses gave us God's words it was in harmony with great miracles to authenticate him in being God's messenger and that his words were really from God. Then a period of silence came where there were no miracles done like he had done. Then came Elijah and Elisha. They both did miracles and offered us God's Word, too. After them, a period of silence where nobody operated like them. Then came Jesus. He did miracles like no other. His apostles also did miracles, too. But just like with Moses and Elijah, a time of silence has followed. It's a repeated pattern that we see in Scripture and God tells us within Mark 16:20 that the word is confirmed by signs. The miracles were the signs that confirmed God's words through out time. Once those words were confirmed, it was no longer necessary to have the miracles continue indefinitely. Why? Because of faith. For without faith, it is impossible to please God.

Remember, Jesus said to Thomas,

"Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).

Jesus was expecting a time when there would be those who do not see and yet believe. If this is not the case and everyone does miracles that they can see, then Jesus's statement cannot be true.

Anyways, may the Lord's goodness be upon you, even if we disagree strongly on this topic.

Click to expand...

I have always dealt with the issues and have goaded no one. At no stage have I accused you of anything. I don't believe I have broken any forum rule. Everything I have said has been in the context of fair debate.

This is a controversial theology forum, and therefore fair and spirited debates come with the territory.

If this thread had been started on a specific congregational or faith community thread other than the Spirit/Filled or Pentecostal one, I would have indeed broken that forum rule, but not this one.

On this and the General Theology forum, I have seen posts saying that the continuance doctrine is false and that tongues is just "gibbering", and even strongly implying that Pentecostals are inspired by the devil.

I've accepted all this as fair and appropriate debate on this forum.

Jason0047 said:

It is both the spoken word and Scripture.

Click to expand...

OK Good. (I will note that the Gospels actually quote or cite the Deutero-canonical books quite often, and the book of Enoch also is referenced a number of times as well.)

Jason0047 said:

The Apostles and Prophets were merely the foundation built upon the foundation of Jesus.

Click to expand...

I largely agree with you here (after seeing my share of the Apostolic & Prophetic movement). My objection comes from what I see in the book of Acts and later Church history especially concerning being an apostle and the general assumptions that are made when people try to teach and preach for this movement.


One guy who will make a Greek NT argument against your position is this guy in this book. https://www.amazon.com/Apostolos-Apostle-Thomas-Henry-Jr/dp/1533465991

He references all the scriptures using the wording "sent by the Church", and other equivalents like Romans 16:7 and makes an argument that there were a few hundred apostles in the NT. He also argues formally against your claim making "seeing the risen Lord" an absolute requirement etc. This book is available to read for free if you click on the text picture it gives you a pdf that you can read and scroll through.


In my analysis the biggest weakness of his position is anyone sent by the church for any task no matter how trivial could actually meet his criterion! Basically if you went out on a grocery run for the coming Agape feast that might actually qualify you which does not seem to do the term apostle justice because it was used originally for an important emissary of a King, emperor etc.

Jason0047 said:

In order for the teaching of Cessationism to be heresy, you actually have to convince me by disproving the points I made with Scripture. You need to break down the brick walls that support Cessationism. So far, neither you or anyone else here is able to do that. What I see is a lot of emotional statements and insults and no real convincing arguments.

Click to expand...

Hi Brother ...I would humbly disagree with you regarding heresy . You do not have to be convinced or disproved for anything to be or not be heresy . It is or it isn't . And just as I suppose that many were taught by men that one HAD to speak in tongues in order to demonstrate that they were born of the spirit , I suppose that at some point you either read or were taught by men that the gifts ceased with the passing of the apostles .
I am not at liberty to add to or take away from God's Word . I understand your frustration regarding the modern day charismatic movement which display "gifts" but live what many would consider to be worldly lives and the pursuit of wealth . But if we make that the standard of whether something written in scripture be true or not , then many of Jesus' words can be tossed... I am equally concerned about "orthodox christian apologist " who have adopted a thought process which is more american and "me centered" than Christ centered . ( I have noticed a strong patriotic spirit in many groups that hold to speaking in tongues. But this same " spirit" is very strong in Southern Baptist and others of the cessationist camp .) Quite frankly there are so many holes of untruth running rampant throughout the church , it is akin to the Titanic with bazillions of pin-holes rather than one or two huge gashes of unorthodox belief and lives contrary to the gospel .
Do you suppose that if you are able to convince those potentially following false speaking in tongues groups that their gifts may be false , that they will leave their denomination ? We are told to preach the word , in season and out of season , correct , rebuke and exhort with all long suffering and patience for the time is coming when they will not endure sound doctrine but will heap to themselves teachers , having itching ears . You may be doing this out of a great love and concern ...I do not know but most every denomination by default thinks they are right and everyone else is wrong or minimally , less informed .
Are Paul's words as we understand them considered scripture ? ( I would say that they are . ) If so , does scripture contradict itself ? ( I would say it does not .)Does Paul contradict himself ? At times it would seem so ( Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her ..then elsewhere : and let those who have wives be as those who have not . ) 1 Corinthians 7:29 . Forbid not to speak in tongues but let everything be done decently and in order . Context is important but humility and the ability to potentially be wrong is equally important . I wonder how much of our own dirty lenses are we looking through when we discern the words and motives of others .
In closing , and I say this to me as well ..choose your battles ..make sure they are not an unfruitful rabbit trail which does not work grace in the hearts of the hearers . We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ .

Jason is actually right on "heresy". "Heresy" is actually a technical term for something that violates officially established dogmatic teaching. (Teaching that is not just an interpretation of the Bible but a precisely defined doctrine, or something that goes against the established teaching of a particular church body). In order for Jason teaching to be "heresy" he would have to be under the authority of your particular Church Body (A member, or a minister) and be violating whatever your official faith statement or other official teaching is. If that were the case, then you could put him on trial for "heresy" and if found guilty you could take action (excommunicate him, defrock him, burn him at the stake etc.).

Besides this there is secondary use of the term relating to people who teach against official doctrines of Christianity relating to the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed that are mostly agreed upon other Christians outside of Catholicism and the Orthodox churches. (were talking about things like the Trinity, Christ being "True man and true God" etc.).