BNR32FAN

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I guess the words of the Lord in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 are not enough for you and what I explained in post #177 in regards to Mark 16:16 and Matthew 28:19 apparently just went right over your head. :( Baptism "associated" with conversion doesn't necessarily mean absolutely required for conversion. Just ask the thief on the cross.

Baptism is not what saved Paul or the 3,000 on the day of Pentecost. Paul mentioned nothing about salvation through faith and baptism in Ephesians 2:8,9 or justification by faith and baptism in Romans 5:1. In Acts 15:9, we read that hearts are purified by faith, not by baptism. In Acts 26:18, we read - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

Water baptism saved none of these people. Apostles were present when the Samaritans (chapter 8) were included and the reason for the delay in receiving the Holy Spirit, which was received after the laying on of hands was to emphasize unity in the church. The Jews despised the Samaritans. Exception, not the rule. Simon the Sorcerer was not saved. In Acts 8:20, Peter said - May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Does that sound like "saved" to you? o_O Cornelius and his household believed/received the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (along with receiving the spiritual gift of tongues which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were clearly saved BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). Salvation by water baptism is not the Way more accurately and believers are Spirit baptized (not water baptized) into the body of Christ (Acts 11:16-17; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:13). In Acts 19:2, Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet believers. They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith, they were then afterwards baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (which was not the case in Acts 2 and Acts 10). It did signify their inclusion into the church as it did in Acts chapter 8. Exception, not the rule. God's purpose was to emphasize unity in the church.

Salvation by water baptism is not the gospel, but is a "different" gospel. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To believe the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation, which apparently you choose to deny. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

What doesn't add up is your perverted water gospel. Be sure to go back and read post #177. I thoroughly refuted your fallacy there. Peter certainly meant it when he said ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins in Acts 10:43. The only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* :)

*If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises eternal life/salvation to those who simply BELIEVE/PLACE FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST FOR SALVATION (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:9; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-8; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Just as I did. :oldthumbsup:

I agree if a man in the middle of the desert has a true repentance to God and dies of dehydration because there is no water I don’t believe he will be condemned to the lake of fire simply because of a technicality of not being baptized in water. Cornelius and his family received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. It is the baptism of the Spirit which saves. Baptism of water is an outward sign of being baptized in the Spirit.
 
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112358

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So, wait, are you saying that Cornelius was a believer and was filled with the Holy Spirit, but was not saved until after he was baptized?
This topic is about salvation, so the question regarding Cornelius is what was the moment of his salvation?
Inasmuch as Cornelius already knew about Jesus' life and crucifixion (as testified by Peter at the time), and had already been enabled by the Father, all he needed was a very small amount of additional information: That Jesus had risen. I would argue that Cornelius accepted Jesus as his savior as soon as he heard that further information and that the Holy Spirit acted immediately at that moment...before Peter had even finished his sermon.
Peter then baptized Cornelius--after the fact--because baptism is what Christians do. As he states it, he literally had no choice--the Holy Spirit had leaped ahead of him.
So, wait, are you saying that Cornelius was a believer and was filled with the Holy Spirit, but was not saved until after he was baptized?
Yes, that is precisely what I am saying.

This topic is about salvation, so the question regarding Cornelius is what was the moment of his salvation?
The moment that Cornelius received the forgiveness of sins, the moment his sins were remitted, the moment he was added to the newly minted Church by the Lord, the moment he was ushered into Christ Jesus, the moment that he put on the Lord, was buried with Him in the likeness of His death, burial, and resurrection, was the moment he was baptized in water.

Inasmuch as Cornelius already knew about Jesus' life and crucifixion (as testified by Peter at the time), and had already been enabled by the Father, all he needed was a very small amount of additional information: That Jesus had risen. I would argue that Cornelius accepted Jesus as his savior as soon as he heard that further information and that the Holy Spirit acted immediately at that moment...before Peter had even finished his sermon.
You might make the argument but you will not find it so stated in scripture. Cornelius was empowered by the Holy Spirit in the same way the apostles were at Pentecost to speak in tongues. This was to show Peter and the Jews that salvation (the Church) had come to the Gentiles as well. It had nothing to do with his saved or unsaved state at that moment, and that Holy Spirit baptism is not the same thing as the gift of the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit is one or all of the following: 1) salvation itself, i.e. the remission of sins, 2) the sign/seal/mark given by Him as a guarantee, 3) the indwelling Spirit Himself. Regardless none of these are bestowed on a penitent believer until they are buried with Christ in baptism. Or at least so says Peter, Paul, the rest of the apostles, and Jesus Christ.

Peter then baptized Cornelius--after the fact--because baptism is what Christians do. As he states it, he literally had no choice--the Holy Spirit had leaped ahead of him.
Except that in many cases, even the majority of cases, it is not what those who claim to be Christians do. Nowhere in the NT will you find such common references to baptism as "an outward sign of an inward change", or "a public symbol of obedience", or any other such descriptor. Peter baptized Cornelius after he believed because, even AFTER he was miraculously empowered by the Holy Spirit, he still needed to have his sins washed away...just like Paul did AFTER he believed!
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yes, that is precisely what I am saying.

The moment that Cornelius received the forgiveness of sins, the moment his sins were remitted, the moment he was added to the newly minted Church by the Lord, the moment he was ushered into Christ Jesus, the moment that he put on the Lord, was buried with Him in the likeness of His death, burial, and resurrection, was the moment he was baptized in water.

You might make the argument but you will not find it so stated in scripture. Cornelius was empowered by the Holy Spirit in the same way the apostles were at Pentecost to speak in tongues. This was to show Peter and the Jews that salvation (the Church) had come to the Gentiles as well. It had nothing to do with his saved or unsaved state at that moment, and that Holy Spirit baptism is not the same thing as the gift of the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit is one or all of the following: 1) salvation itself, i.e. the remission of sins, 2) the sign/seal/mark given by Him as a guarantee, 3) the indwelling Spirit Himself. Regardless none of these are bestowed on a penitent believer until they are buried with Christ in baptism. Or at least so says Peter, Paul, the rest of the apostles, and Jesus Christ.

Except that in many cases, even the majority of cases, it is not what those who claim to be Christians do. Nowhere in the NT will you find such common references to baptism as "an outward sign of an inward change", or "a public symbol of obedience", or any other such descriptor. Peter baptized Cornelius after he believed because, even AFTER he was miraculously empowered by the Holy Spirit, he still needed to have his sins washed away...just like Paul did AFTER he believed!

So if a person in the desert accepts Christ as his savior and has a genuine repentance and receives the Holy Spirit but dies from dehydration he will be condemned to the lake of fire? I think John 6:37-40 would say no.
 
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112358

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I agree if a man in the middle of the desert has a true repentance to God and dies of dehydration because there is no water I don’t believe he will be condemned to the lake of fire simply because of a technicality of not being baptized in water. Cornelius and his family received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. It is the baptism of the Spirit which saves. Baptism of water is an outward sign of being baptized in the Spirit.
Again, if one claims to have received Holy Spirit baptism as part of their conversion experience, then they better be prepared to demonstrate which of the miraculous sign gifts/powers they possess that are ALWAYS associated with that baptism in scripture. Which of them do you possess? Is it raising people from the dead? Healing terminal diseases on the spot? Immunity to poison/venom perhaps?

Most people I pose this question to will eventually arrive at tongues as the sign gift they either possess or have witnessed. But of course they refer to tongues which require an interpreter, and conveniently the tongues which no one can ever prove as authentic or not. They never claim to possess the kind of tongues the apostles spoke, which were those where each individual in the crowd heard them speak in his own native language...no interpreter required.

Water baptism has nothing to do with Holy Spirit baptism. It is not symbolic of HS baptism in any way. Not one word of scripture anywhere in the NT says anything close to it.
 
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112358

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So if a person in the desert accepts Christ as his savior and has a genuine repentance and receives the Holy Spirit but dies from dehydration he will be condemned to the lake of fire? I think John 6:37-40 would say no.
Anyone who has not obeyed the Gospel at the time of their physical death will be lost in eternity. That is the urgency of the Gospel!
 
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112358

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People who struggle with the necessity of baptism, and who bring up all the possible (yet improbable) hypothetical "believers" who are unable to be baptized, fail to understand the immutable nature of God's laws. They understand the immutability of God's natural laws just fine. They know what happens when one is electrocuted, or drowned, or jumps or falls off the roof of a building. Those laws remain regardless of one's intent, and the consequences of violating one of those laws are meted out without regard to intent or any kind of prejudice whatsoever. That is the very definition of immutable. They, Like Him, change not.

And yet people seem almost incapable of applying that principle to God's spiritual laws. Believe me folks they are every bit as immutable as His natural laws.
 
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112358

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The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.
Except for belief, right? That is a prerequisite. But belief is not a "work" or something that we do which is associated with our salvation, correct? Honestly it gets harder and harder to keep track of all your exceptions.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Again, if one claims to have received Holy Spirit baptism as part of their conversion experience, then they better be prepared to demonstrate which of the miraculous sign gifts/powers they possess that are ALWAYS associated with that baptism in scripture. Which of them do you possess? Is it raising people from the dead? Healing terminal diseases on the spot? Immunity to poison/venom perhaps?

Most people I pose this question to will eventually arrive at tongues as the sign gift they either possess or have witnessed. But of course they refer to tongues which require an interpreter, and conveniently the tongues which no one can ever prove as authentic or not. They never claim to possess the kind of tongues the apostles spoke, which were those where each individual in the crowd heard them speak in his own native language...no interpreter required.

Water baptism has nothing to do with Holy Spirit baptism. It is not symbolic of HS baptism in any way. Not one word of scripture anywhere in the NT says anything close to it.

I have received the gift of discernment. Being able to see the difference between what is right and wrong. My church doesn’t baptize every Sunday so I had to wait a while before I was baptized with water. The Holy Spirit was working in and thru me long before I was baptized with water. So your saying that the person in the desert who had a genuine conversion came to God and will be cast out based on the technicality that there was no water to be found?
 
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Danthemailman

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Except for belief, right? That is a prerequisite. But belief is not a "work" or something that we do which is associated with our salvation, correct? Honestly it gets harder and harder to keep track of all your exceptions.
Belief is not a work that merits salvation. Through belieiving in Christ for salvation, we are trusting in “another’s work” — Christ’s finished work of redemption. (Romans 3:22-28) That’s not hard to understand, but is apparently hard for certain people to ACCEPT.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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So, wait, are you saying that Cornelius was a believer and was filled with the Holy Spirit, but was not saved until after he was baptized?

This topic is about salvation, so the question regarding Cornelius is what was the moment of his salvation?

Inasmuch as Cornelius already knew about Jesus' life and crucifixion (as testified by Peter at the time), and had already been enabled by the Father, all he needed was a very small amount of additional information: That Jesus had risen. I would argue that Cornelius accepted Jesus as his savior as soon as he heard that further information and that the Holy Spirit acted immediately at that moment...before Peter had even finished his sermon.

Peter then baptized Cornelius--after the fact--because baptism is what Christians do. As he states it, he literally had no choice--the Holy Spirit had leaped ahead of him.
Indeed, and Peter never mentioned or required baptism in order for Cornelius and co to realize the washing of regeneration, "purifying their hearts thru faith," giving them the Holy Ghost as well as us," but which gift is what he promised to those who would repent and be baptized in Acts 2:38.

There is no contradiction however, for as I have expressed, the promise of regeneration if one would repent and be baptized is given because submitting to that would mean they believed, and which is the same thing as Romans 10:9,10, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)

And "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32)

For such confession means that such is of salvific faith and thus have salvation, and baptism is confession in body language, but while salvation is promised to those who manifest faith, it is not the manifestation/confession itself that that is appropriates justification, but the God-given faith behind, and for which man can take zero credit.

Cornelius and company were already penitent, Cornelius being akin to an OT believer, who only needed to understand that forgiveness came by believing in the crucified and risen Lord Jesus, who is "Lord of all," and as his heart was looking for this then he and his household immediately believed and confessed with their mouth by the Spirit the heart-purifying faith that was in their heart. And which Peter said was evidential of regeneration, not the means of obtaining it.

As for the gift of the Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit baptism not being the same thing, with Holy Spirit baptism only being for the apostles at Pentecost and Cornelius, I do think one can have the Holy Spirit in regeneration yet not the fullness, which I pray for, but God will not be restricted to a formula in this, and even terms (gift, baptism with, baptism by) fail.

In John 20:22 the Lord breathed on His disciples - which, if the same as in Luke 24:29-45, was not just the 11, while missing Thomas - "and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Then having been praising and seeking the Lord for days, on the day of Pentecost the 120 ("they were all with one accord in one place..And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them") received the gift of the Holy Spirit promised in Joe 2:28-32 "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. " (Acts 2:33)

And which was the gift promised to those in Acts 2:38 "and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

And "the like gift" was received by Cornelius and co. "who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 11:17)

But in Acts 8, when Samaritans "believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." (Acts 8:12)

Yet "when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) (Acts 8:14-16) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" (Acts 8:14-16)

Thus is refuted the idea that only the apostles and Cornelius and company had this baptism, yet out of this comes the belief that only the apostles could pass this on, and the Orthodox practice of chrismation right after baptism, and of RC confirmation, both of which evidentially make a mockery of both regeneration and a second work of grace, since these practices are not overall evidenced by basic profound transformational changes as are seen in true Biblical conversion.

But the it leaves the seeking eunuch without this gift, or baptism with the Holy Spirit, since he believed and was baptized the deacon Philip, and went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8:34-38)

Next up is Saul, "breathing out threatening and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord," who once confronted and penitent, is sent to "a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias"
"a devout man according to the law" (Acts 9:10; 22:12) who is never said or intimated to be a apostle, or (as some Catholics insist, one of the 70 sent by Christ earlier). Who"putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost." (Acts 9:17) While also being told, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16)

Next comes Cornelius and co., all of whom receive the same gift and baptism as the apostles and those who were promised the same gift in Acts 2:38. For "we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him," (Acts 5:32) who commanded "repent ye, and believe the gospel." (Mark 1:15)

After this we have "certain disciples," most certainly Jewish, who knew only the baptism of John, and thus were told "that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." (Acts 19:4-6)

Yet Paul baptized very few, for preaching the gospel was his priority. But he mentions an enduement, a gift, via laying on of hands by the presbyters (not Cath. priests ) to young Timothy, (1 Timothy 4:14) which is corespondent to Deuteronomy 34:9. [The man who once made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. (Acts 8:3) and imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed, (Acts 22:19) "punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; (Acts 26:11) now laid hands in doing just the opposite, by grace.]

And Paul also states "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed [or having believed"], ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," (Eph. 1:13) and affirms that "because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father," (Galatians 4:6) and also refers to those "that ministereth to you the Spirit," (Galatians 3:5) and tell the Corinthians that as a body, the "come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 1:7) Yet charism does not equate to character.

From all this i see that the Spirit is received when one believes the gospel, being born of the Spirit, (Jn. 3:7) but there is also a reception of fullness and various supernatural gifts, which can occur at conversion, while God also makes the body of Christ interdependent, and uses others as channels of grace. Which normally should be first thru ordained pastors of Scriptural integrity, but the office is no surety of anointing, and God uses those who have a gift to as and channels of grace to others. And the power of binding and loosing is also afforded to holy laity of fervent faith , though in formal conjunction with leadership regard judicial actions.

To God be the glory, who cannot be put in a box
 
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112358

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Belief is not a work that merits salvation. Through belieiving in Christ for salvation, we are trusting in “another’s work” — Christ’s finished work of redemption. (Romans 3:22-28) That’s not hard to understand, but is apparently hard for certain people to ACCEPT.
I think we will simply have to agree to disagree, as we have every time we have met on this subject.

To me, saying that belief is the only requirement for salvation without including the other scriptural actions those who believed in the NT took (i.e. repent, confess, be baptized, etc), is not unlike me saying that I believe I am an astronaut. Have I trained as an astronaut? nope. Have I ever traveled to space? No again. Have I even piloted an air or spacecraft at any time? Never. But I am an astronaut nonetheless because, you see, I believe it!

If I were an authentic astronaut I would have done the things with which being an astronaut is associated. Likewise if I am an authentic Christian, I will have done those things with which being a Christian is associated, believing being but one of those things.
 
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RDKirk

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So your saying that the person in the desert who had a genuine conversion came to God and will be cast out based on the technicality that there was no water to be found?

And an assertion that eternal damnation rests on a physical technicality would be absurd in a God who by numerous witnesses is biased toward salvation.

God is not a disinterested judge--He is a judge who is biased for the defendant. God is both judge and defense attorney, and He has thrown the prosecutor out of the courtroom.

We do not worship a God whose plan of salvation is filled with small print like an insurance contract. We worship a God who came to earth as a man and went through inconceivable pain to mark the cards and stack the deck in favor of salvation.
 
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112358

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I didn’t say the person was disobedient.
You said that they had not been baptized, which is a requirement of obedience to the Gospel. At least according to Jesus Christ, the apostle Peter, the apostle Paul, everyone who was becoming a Christian throughout the book of Acts, and the whole of NT scripture on the subject.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You said that they had not been baptized, which is a requirement of obedience to the Gospel. At least according to Jesus Christ, the apostle Peter, the apostle Paul, everyone who was becoming a Christian throughout the book of Acts, and the whole of NT scripture on the subject.

In the scenario the guy died of dehydration lol. Was he disobedient because there was no water to be found?
 
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RDKirk

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In the scenario the guy died of dehydration lol. Was he disobedient because there was no water to be found?

That would make Satan's work easy. All he has to do is make sure every penitent person is hit by a bus before he gets baptized.
 
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112358

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In the scenario the guy died of dehydration lol. Was he disobedient because there was no water to be found?
No. He was disobedient because he did not obey the Gospel. It is as certain as the laws of nature which governed his physical death in your scenario. There is only one place where spiritual life, where saving grace, is located. It is in His Church, His body, His bride. There is only one way in which one gains entrance into that Body, and that is through baptism for the remission of sins. That is when the Lord adds us to His spiritual kingdom. That is where and when we enter into the likeness of His death, burial, and resurrection, where and when we rise up a "new creature". We can like it or not, accept it or not, but that is what His Word says over and over and over again.
 
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112358

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That would make Satan's work easy. All he has to do is make sure every penitent person is hit by a bus before he gets baptized.
Or make sure they think their "belief" is what saves them and they need not be baptized, regardless of how their physical life eventually ends. That is even easier.
 
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No. He was disobedient because he did not obey the Gospel. It is as certain as the laws of nature which governed his physical death in your scenario. There is only one place where spiritual life, where saving grace, is located. It is in His Church, His body, His bride. There is only one way in which one gains entrance into that Body, and that is through baptism for the remission of sins. That is when the Lord adds us to His spiritual kingdom. That is where and when we enter into the likeness of His death, burial, and resurrection, where and when we rise up a "new creature". We can like it or not, accept it or not, but that is what His Word says over and over and over again.

And what did JTB have to say his baptism compared to Jesus’ baptism?

“John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Tho Holy Spirit did not descend upon the people JTB baptized. We see this in Acts 19

“It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

So which baptism was greater the baptism of water or the baptism of the Spirit?
 
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RDKirk

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Or make sure they think their "belief" is what saves them and they need not be baptized, regardless of how their physical life eventually ends. That is even easier.

No, "need not be baptized" is not what anyone is saying.

Obedience is a necessity of the renewed man. The urge to obey in the new man is like the urge of a migratory bird to fly toward summer.

Nobody who is saved would choose to avoid baptism because obedience is what faith compels Christians to do. A person who does not desire to be baptized (once told it is what the saved do) is probably not saved.

But baptism itself isn't the act of salvation.
 
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