Fellow liberals, why do we defend Islam?

SolomonVII

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What liberals need differentiate is that while individual Muslims, such as the people we all know, are very capable of living as individuals in a pluralistic society, with no special rights vis-à-vis ‘dhimmis’, official Islam is political and it aims at a theocracy.
Political Islam, with the help of Saudi Arabia, run the mosques of the world. They run the political machines of Islam, such as the Muslim Brotherhood and CAIR.
They control the flags and banners of Islam, and inasmuch as Identity politics is the leftist’s path to power, simply by identifying as Muslims, those individual Muslims we all know will vote political Islamists into office.
Liberals can chose to support liberal ideals, or Identity politics, but Islam is the prime example of why liberals cannot do both without betraying their own liberal principles.
Hirsi Ali is an example of a person from an Islamic background who supports liberal principles. Linda Sarsour is an example of a Muslim who strives for the Islamic theocracy.
Liberals reject the former and rally around the latter as a fellow feminist. Therefore liberals have become irrelevant oxymorons to their own values.
They are very useful to political Islam though. Lenin noted much the same about liberals of his day too. He appreciated that kind of idiocy, and used that exact word to describe the kind of liberal whose hearts superseded any loyalty to liberal principle.
 
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LoAmmi

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Yet Islam is not a religion in the western sense of the word.

Islam is a religion that encompasses and dictates everything surrounding self, family, community, and state. It's a holistic religion in this manner, there is no aspect of life from birth to death, from self to government, that Islam does not dominate and dictate man's (mankind's) actions concerning.

The west sees religion through the lens of a personal faith, but that is not Islam.

Judaism is a faith that was national, but it never sought to expand. If you didn't care for the laws and the God, then Israel the nation was a tiny postage stamp of a place. You could move if it wasnt for you. It was national, but that nation was limited in scope.

Christianity on the other hand sought expansion, but it's not national seeking to expand borders. (the error of the Islamification of Catholicism aside) There is no nation in Christianity, it's a personal faith between man and his God. (My Kingdom is not of this world)

Islam on the other hand, is both national and expansionist. It seeks to expand borders through the entire earth, and encompass the earth. This is the design of the faith - national and expansionist, all encompassing.

That takes it out of the realm of an innocent personal faith in a non Muslim country, and into the realm of a potential political threat to any non Muslim state.

There is a way for Muslims to live when they are a minority in any country. And a means Muslims are to expand Islam within the country. And a means Islam then takes over as/when when Muslims gain in numbers and strength.

This is laid out in ahadith..it's not hidden. This is why and how it takes over entire nations, there isn't any aspect of anything you do that Islam doesn't have laws ruling..

In order to keep Egypt free from Islamic rule, there can't really be a democracy. In order to keep freedom of religion for everyone in Syria, you need a leader like Assad who will keep the sunni extremists at bay. The Taliban and ISIS are what happens in the absense of strong leadership to keep them at bay and they are always there waiting to rise no matter where Islam is. Why? Because of Islam itself.. they derive the faith from sahih ahadith, as sahih as that Quran is, and as much a part of the faith.

That is the Difference. Islam has as close a resemblance to something political like socialism actively working to take over your national politics and rewrite your constitution as it does to someone going to church 21 times a week to pray, and once a week to hear a sermon.

You look at it through the lens of the more individual and personal faith like modern Christianity, but it's not the case. It's a political entity and should be treated as such..

I understand all of that. As I said, I'm not fond of Islam. I think most Islam majority countries are regressive and very bad on human rights. I don't defend them. Individuals, however, are free to practice their faith.

To note, I also wouldn't restrict a person advocating for making this country into an Islamic state as they have the freedom to do that. Christians can desire to make the US a Christian state as well. I oppose both and would make sure to advocate and vote against any candidate running on this platform.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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I've noticed that my atheist and agnostic liberal friends are hostile toward Christianity, but totally sympathetic to Islam, and I'm baffled as to why. It's to the point where they absolutely will become angry with you, accuse you of "racism," and declare that you are "misrepresenting" Islam when you criticize it. My best guess is that liberals with latch onto, make allies with, and defend anyone whom they view as oppressed.

I spent a great deal of time learning about Islam earnestly and open-mindedly while exploring religion. I spent considerable time at a mosque over the course of about 6 months, praying with them, chatting with numerous Muslims, reading the Quran front to back more than once, and studying the Hadith (teachings and sayings of Muhammad). Here is what I learned:

First, the positives. Muslims believe in freedom of religion; religion is not compulsory. Any Muslim society that follows the Quran and Hadith truly will allow Christians and Jews to practice freely. Also, they abhor racism. To Muslims, race does not matter. Mosques are multi-ethnic, and all Muslims are brothers and sisters. Racism is viewed as hatred of Allah's creation, which is a great sin. Of course, racism will still seep into some Muslim circles, as it does with every religion and even no religion. But the general view is anti-racist. These two things are where liberalism and Islam agree, and after this, there are no similarities whatsoever.

Now, a few points of contention.

The Islamic perspective is almost completely antithetical to secular and Christian liberalism. Moderate Islam is more extreme than even the most conservative brand of fundamentalist Christianity. On many social and religious issues, Islam is about 8 centuries behind the secular world, and that's not an exaggeration.

Part of accepting Islam is accepting Sharia in it's entirety, literally interpreted, with minimal changes to adapt to modernism. Sharia is Islamic religious law and government. This is true of ALL muslims, and I say this from my own experience. Ask any one of them if they accept Sharia, and they will tell you yes. No exceptions. This isn't a misconception at all. Sharia is laid out in the Quran and Hadiths of the prophet extensively, and the Quran teaches explicitly to obey the teachings of the prophet. The Quran and the Hadith lay out a blueprint for Islamic rule, and command that it be established and followed. This command is taken very seriously.

The liberal support of Islam is NOT reciprocated, generally. The Islamic world has a very low view of secular liberalism, and often identifies with conservatism, in spite of harsh criticism from Western conservatives. From the Islamic perspective, secular law leaves God out of governance, and disobeys His laws and governmental system as laid out explicitly in the Quran and Hadith. This is seen as a great evil. If you don't believe me, go to a mosque and ask them how they feel about secularism and Sharia.

Punishment for apostasy is death. This is clear and unambiguous in the Quran and Hadith. Read it for yourself if you don't believe me. Views on homosexuality are more extreme than the religious right in the US. It is a grave sin, on par with murder, and can be punished by death. The best you can hope for if you are caught in homosexual acts under Sharia is a beating, and this is in more moderate Muslim circles.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Believe me, there is much, much more. And lest I am accused of misrepresenting, pick up any translation of the Quran and see for yourself. Talk to the Muslim community and see for yourself. Look up the Hadiths and see for yourself. It's all right there, clear as day. After learning about Islam to the extent that I have, and seeing that most of the criticisms of it are true, I cannot bring myself to support or defend it. Frankly, I'd rather live under a Pat Robertson dictatorship than any form of Islamic law.

EDIT: When I bring these things up to my liberal friends, they point to passages of the Bible that condone some of the same things. I'll address this point right now: Christianity and Judaism have both adapted to the modern world. For the most part, Islam has not.
As a liberal, I don't think that liberals generally defend "Islam". I think that is the way conservatives and all their propaganda outlets paint the picture. I think what liberals do is stick up for those who are oppressed on the basis of things like religion (and sex, age, race, etc.). When liberals defend muslims they are doing that - defending people who belong to a religion and are being persecuted for being members of that religion. They are not making any statement on the religion itself. Indeed, most liberals probably abhor what they perceive the religion of Islam to be, but they still will be protective of people to practice that religion and not be persecuted for it.

As for your assertion that atheists and agnostics defend Islam, I don't see that ever. At best, the liberal ones will defend the people of that religion but not the religion itself. Most atheists and agnostics in my experience are hateful towards the religion of Islam more than they hate Christianity or Judaism or just about any other religion. Bill Maher is a perfect example of the typical atheist that hates Islam (and yet will sometimes defend the people of that religion). So I can't relate or agree with your assertion that there are all these atheists/agnostics who defend Islam - I simply never, ever see that and I know many atheists and agnostics.

I find this entire thread interesting because people seem to have misunderstanding of Islam and Muslims across the spectrum. Conservatives and liberals have gross misunderstandings and the result is unusual and unfair reactions towards muslims. Even the "liberals" here, including yourself, have a very myopic view of muslims. It's probably because most here are very western and don't understand middle eastern cultures.

Being of a middle eastern background and having my ethnic history extremely influenced by Islam for centuries I don't share the same view as other westerners. I know what my family's and by extension my fellow Armenians' history is and that Islam is not a monolithic religion with a single and central authority from which orders are carried out.

My family and millions of Armenians were killed by the Muslim Turks. They were given the option to convert to Islam in order to live. Centuries before, the Persians did the same to Armenians. I know also that if not for the majority-Muslim nation of Syria my family and the vast majority of Armenians in the western world would not exist today. I know that my family spread to nations like Jordan (a Muslim country) where they were taken care of and treated well despite being Christians and they flourished. My mother's uncle, a genocide survivor, became King Hussein of Jordan's Royal Tailor. Islam is oppressive? We are a "dhimmi"? In Turkey we were a "dhimmi" but not in Jordan. But ignorant westerners throw that word around as if they know what they are talking about when in fact they don't.

Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, and even Iran showed far more hospitality and mercy to Christian Armenians than any Western nation ever did. They certainly showed us more hospitality and fair treatment than we Americans have ever shown them, especially these last decades when we destroy them and take no responsibility whatsoever (all the while we claim to be the "good" guys).

So this whole thread is funny to me. Funny as in strange. Funny in that people are making assertions about Islam and Muslims despite having never lived among them and experienced them and their cultures (which are diverse and varied) yet ignoring (for whatever reason) the goodness many muslim people, governments, nations, etc. have shown to Christians. There are Christians in many of the muslim-majority nations and often are treated extremely well and protected (Syria is one such example, Jordan another). People ignore this or they are simply ignorant about it.

My immediate and close extended family came mostly from Beirut, Lebanon. Both my parents and all their siblings born and raised there. If you asked any of them - ANY - how they feel about Muslims you would hear really great things. In fact, I'd say all of them felt more trusting of their Muslim neighbors than of their Christian non-Armenian neighbors. That's a sad statement on Christian unity but certainly an endorsement on the Muslim people and their morality in treating Christian neighbors.

Yes, there are radical Muslims nowadays and ones who hate Christianity and who want to harm Christians. There were the same before - the Turks are a great example of a nation that hates Christians with a passion for all of the centuries they existed right up until today. Ironically, the same Westerners (Americans especially) who like to spread anti-Muslim fear and hate are the very same who are best friends with the Turks and Saudis, two of the most virulent anti-Christian Muslim nations in the entire world, both of them worse than Iran when it comes to that.

But that's the whole point - hatred of Islam and Muslims is based purely in politics and that's why liberals will politically oppose at least the humanitarian side of things in which the rights of a muslim person are taken away when that person becomes oppressed and persecuted simply for being in that religion, no matter how much the liberal defending them may hate the religion itself.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I've noticed that my atheist and agnostic liberal friends are hostile toward Christianity, but totally sympathetic to Islam, and I'm baffled as to why.
Jesus is hated by the world/ society.
So is everyone who is one with Jesus and the Father.

Those of the world, lost , the world loves.....

John 15:18-27 KJV - If the world hate you, ye know that it - Bible ...
Bible Gateway passage: John 15:18-27 - New International Version...
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own:
 
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dzheremi

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As a liberal, I don't think that liberals generally defend "Islam". I think that is the way conservatives and all their propaganda outlets paint the picture. I think what liberals do is stick up for those who are oppressed on the basis of things like religion (and sex, age, race, etc.). When liberals defend muslims they are doing that - defending people who belong to a religion and are being persecuted for being members of that religion. They are not making any statement on the religion itself. Indeed, most liberals probably abhor what they perceive the religion of Islam to be, but they still will be protective of people to practice that religion and not be persecuted for it.

As for your assertion that atheists and agnostics defend Islam, I don't see that ever. At best, the liberal ones will defend the people of that religion but not the religion itself. Most atheists and agnostics in my experience are hateful towards the religion of Islam more than they hate Christianity or Judaism or just about any other religion. Bill Maher is a perfect example of the typical atheist that hates Islam (and yet will sometimes defend the people of that religion). So I can't relate or agree with your assertion that there are all these atheists/agnostics who defend Islam - I simply never, ever see that and I know many atheists and agnostics.

I find this entire thread interesting because people seem to have misunderstanding of Islam and Muslims across the spectrum. Conservatives and liberals have gross misunderstandings and the result is unusual and unfair reactions towards muslims. Even the "liberals" here, including yourself, have a very myopic view of muslims. It's probably because most here are very western and don't understand middle eastern cultures.

Being of a middle eastern background and having my ethnic history extremely influenced by Islam for centuries I don't share the same view as other westerners. I know what my family's and by extension my fellow Armenians' history is and that Islam is not a monolithic religion with a single and central authority from which orders are carried out.

My family and millions of Armenians were killed by the Muslim Turks. They were given the option to convert to Islam in order to live. Centuries before, the Persians did the same to Armenians. I know also that if not for the majority-Muslim nation of Syria my family and the vast majority of Armenians in the western world would not exist today. I know that my family spread to nations like Jordan (a Muslim country) where they were taken care of and treated well despite being Christians and they flourished. My mother's uncle, a genocide survivor, became King Hussein of Jordan's Royal Tailor. Islam is oppressive? We are a "dhimmi"? In Turkey we were a "dhimmi" but not in Jordan. But ignorant westerners throw that word around as if they know what they are talking about when in fact they don't.

Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, and even Iran showed far more hospitality and mercy to Christian Armenians than any Western nation ever did. They certainly showed us more hospitality and fair treatment than we Americans have ever shown them, especially these last decades when we destroy them and take no responsibility whatsoever (all the while we claim to be the "good" guys).

So this whole thread is funny to me. Funny as in strange. Funny in that people are making assertions about Islam and Muslims despite having never lived among them and experienced them and their cultures (which are diverse and varied) yet ignoring (for whatever reason) the goodness many muslim people, governments, nations, etc. have shown to Christians. There are Christians in many of the muslim-majority nations and often are treated extremely well and protected (Syria is one such example, Jordan another). People ignore this or they are simply ignorant about it.

My immediate and close extended family came mostly from Beirut, Lebanon. Both my parents and all their siblings born and raised there. If you asked any of them - ANY - how they feel about Muslims you would hear really great things. In fact, I'd say all of them felt more trusting of their Muslim neighbors than of their Christian non-Armenian neighbors. That's a sad statement on Christian unity but certainly an endorsement on the Muslim people and their morality in treating Christian neighbors.

Yes, there are radical Muslims nowadays and ones who hate Christianity and who want to harm Christians. There were the same before - the Turks are a great example of a nation that hates Christians with a passion for all of the centuries they existed right up until today. Ironically, the same Westerners (Americans especially) who like to spread anti-Muslim fear and hate are the very same who are best friends with the Turks and Saudis, two of the most virulent anti-Christian Muslim nations in the entire world, both of them worse than Iran when it comes to that.

But that's the whole point - hatred of Islam and Muslims is based purely in politics and that's why liberals will politically oppose at least the humanitarian side of things in which the rights of a muslim person are taken away when that person becomes oppressed and persecuted simply for being in that religion, no matter how much the liberal defending them may hate the religion itself.

In every place and time there is variation. I think of Armenians' relations with Muslims and like to remind myself that it was the Muslim leadership of Persia that directly aided in the construction of New Julfa (including its church, if I recall correctly), when a wave of Armenians came to escape persecution from the Turkic Muslims in what is now Azerbaijan. Whether or not anyone here would agree, I'm pretty sure those Persian rulers would've said that helping the Armenians is entirely consistent with the values of Islam. That's the trouble with Islam and indeed all religions at some level: It's not just one thing, so you're going to get a lot of variation. And unfortunately a lot of people won't make the distinction between the religion and the people who practice it. The more hardline among the religious might even say it's wrong to make such a distinction; I've known plenty of people from across the Middle East and North Africa who say that this is a huge impediment to the growth of truly secular democracy -- you can't have a strong secular party in Egypt like the Wafd of old now, because everyone is trained to think in a sectarian manner, to the benefit of religious demagogues, be they Sunni, Shia, Coptic, or whatever. This is why the true secularists from Egypt or Iraq who I've met say the first goal is to get religion off of national ID. It's not like people wouldn't be able to tell that you're Coptic anyway with a name like Bishoy, or Armenian if you have a name like Vartan, etc.

Anyway, all of this is to say thar I more or less agree with you, but would still be hesitant to ascribe goodness to Islam without also balancing it with something less than good, not to the denigration of Muslim people but because the variation across Muslim societies, together with the theocratic attitude that the religion is to be the defining factor of the society, basically forces us to say "Okay, Islam in this place/time is like this, or like that" (depending), even when what we're really talking about is the actions of people and regimes (e.g., the young Turks, the Persians who helped build New Julfa, etc).

Because Islam tends to be more explicitly theocratic in the modern world than other religions, it is sometimes difficult to maintain proper distinctions. It wasn't Copts who put article 2 (mandating Sharia as the principle source of legislation, not to be contradicted) in the Egyptian constitution in the 1980s. That was politicians appealing to/trying to pacify the MB and other Salafist types, who are of course Muslims. So what're you gonna do, really? I'm truly glad that your family in Lebanon felt so safe among Muslims. I wish that was every native Christian's experience in the region, but I know it isn't. It'd be nice to get some recognition of that from those who are supposedly all about protecting those who are discriminated against on account of their religion (an inherently worthy goal). You don't need to trash millions of people to recognize that their religion or it's impact on the societies in which it predominates is at best a mixed bag. That's a conversation I'd like to see happening more often among the religious, both Muslim and non, instead of the likes of Bill Maher and Sam Harris, who cannot provide a religiously informed view in the first place.
 
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DanishLutheran

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So not a 'liberal Christian' but a Christian who takes Christianity seriously.

Those Christians who held their noses and voted for someone with a less than stellar moral record were Christians who take Christianity seriously. It's certainly what I would have done if I'd been American.
Because the alternative - going along with the side that aims to destroy Christians' ability to live as Christians, and who increasingly is forcing Christians to choose between their faith and their livelihoods - should be an unconscionable act of betrayal to any who call themselves Christian.

As was said: Trump ran for President, not Pope/Bishop/Televangelist. And, as a Christian, I would much rather have an open hypocrite on the matter of Christianity, but who runs on a platform to protect Christians' ability to live and work, than someone who is less obviously a hypocrite, a so-called "mainstream Christian", but who is actively working to destroy Christians' ability to live and work, forcing them to choose between faith and livelihood, etc.

Meaning, realistically, any Democrat that could win the nomination back in 2016, and now as well..

In short, ANY Republican - from Rubio over Trump to Cruz, would be preferable to any democrat.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Those Christians who held their noses and voted for someone with a less than stellar moral record were Christians who take Christianity seriously. It's certainly what I would have done if I'd been American.
Because the alternative - going along with the side that aims to destroy Christians' ability to live as Christians, and who increasingly is forcing Christians to choose between their faith and their livelihoods - should be an unconscionable act of betrayal to any who call themselves Christian.

As was said: Trump ran for President, not Pope/Bishop/Televangelist. And, as a Christian, I would much rather have an open hypocrite on the matter of Christianity, but who runs on a platform to protect Christians' ability to live and work, than someone who is less obviously a hypocrite, a so-called "mainstream Christian", but who is actively working to destroy Christians' ability to live and work, forcing them to choose between faith and livelihood, etc.

Meaning, realistically, any Democrat that could win the nomination back in 2016, and now as well..

In short, ANY Republican - from Rubio over Trump to Cruz, would be preferable to any democrat.
This kind of really looks great , almost....
a quick question then (to clarify) ...

Acknowledging that YES! it was GOOD and was GOD'S CHOICE that
Trump be in office,

the question is , WHO put Him there, ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE ?

hint: IN SCRIPTURE, WHO always sets up the leaders, and takes them down as He Pleases ?
 
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DanishLutheran

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I think its down to sympathy for perceived oppressed groups.

There are non-fundamentalist and non-racist critics of Islam in the US and Europe. It's just something one has to be careful about, because Islamaphobia is a real thing.

It isn't, though, First of all, a phobia is an irrational fear.
Secondly, it isn't fear in the traditional sense. It's resistence to watching our countries get zerged.

Third: Your Grundtvig-quote is extremely out of context. The meaning isn't "Hey, we're all human, everything else is secondary". It is: "Before you know yourself as a person, you cannot grow as a Christian".
Grundtvig was everything that those Americans who call themselves "liberals" today would loathe ^_^
He was staunchly conservative, to the point of not being terribly thrilled about the idea of doing away with the King's absolute rule (though he did become one of our constitutional fathers once the move to democracy was decided). He was theologically as conservative as they come, getting very much into trouble for calling "liberal theologians" out on their bovine manure, etc.

And he was very much a "nationalist" as well, to the point where THAT is what most people here know him for. That, and a few Christmas hymns which everyone know, Christian and non-Christian.
 
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DanishLutheran

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This kind of really looks great , almost....
a quick question then (to clarify) ...

Acknowledging that YES! it was GOOD and was GOD'S CHOICE that
Trump be in office,

the question is , WHO put Him there, ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE ?

hint: IN SCRIPTURE, WHO always sets up the leaders, and takes them down as He Pleases ?

That same logic applies to all other leaders, everywhere. It applies to Nero (who, IIRC, was Emperor when Romans 13 was written), Hitler, Chingghis Khan, Obama, and, yes, Trump too.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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That same logic applies to all other leaders, everywhere. It applies to Nero (who, IIRC, was Emperor when Romans 13 was written), Hitler, Chingghis Khan, Obama, and, yes, Trump too.
Not using logic -
Just what is Written, YES ! It applies to every leader.... according to Scripture.
 
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FireDragon76

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It isn't, though, First of all, a phobia is an irrational fear.
Secondly, it isn't fear in the traditional sense. It's resistence to watching our countries get zerged.

Third: Your Grundtvig-quote is extremely out of context. The meaning isn't "Hey, we're all human, everything else is secondary". It is: "Before you know yourself as a person, you cannot grow as a Christian".
Grundtvig was everything that those Americans who call themselves "liberals" today would loathe ^_^
He was staunchly conservative, to the point of not being terribly thrilled about the idea of doing away with the King's absolute rule (though he did become one of our constitutional fathers once the move to democracy was decided). He was theologically as conservative as they come, getting very much into trouble for calling "liberal theologians" out on their bovine manure, etc.

And he was very much a "nationalist" as well, to the point where THAT is what most people here know him for. That, and a few Christmas hymns which everyone know, Christian and non-Christian.


My appreciation for Grundtvig comes down to siding with him in the dispute with Kierkegaard. I agree with Grundtvig's estimation of the essence of Christianity as a communal and sacramental religion, whereas Kierkegaard was a pietist.

I don't believe I've misunderstood the Grundvig quote at all. Grundtvig was a Christian humanist and saw Christianity and appreciation for the humanities coexisting.

I think you assume political liberalism and theological liberalism are correlated, but this isn't always the case. I don't identify with orthodoxy/fundamentalism but I don't identify with theological liberalism either. I believe in liberal democratic values because I believe the global dominance of western democracies speaks for itself, producing dynamic societies that are adaptable. That is why I am a liberal.
 
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DanishLutheran

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I don't believe I've misunderstood the Grundvig quote at all. Grundtvig was a Christian humanist and saw Christianity and appreciation for the humanities coexisting.

Yes, but that changes nothing about his politics, nor about the fact that he was very much conservative theologically as well as politically.
His "thesis" (to use an anacrhonistic term) was deeply and passionately opposed to the mindset of the French revolution.

There is indeed no problem with Christianity and appreciation for the humanities coexisting. Grundtvig saw that. Which is why he has the status of "founding father" (to use a term that doesn't really apply since we're over 1000 years old already) here. But the quote as you use it is DEFINITELY something Grundtvig himself would not have appreciated. He'd have felt misused. And rightfully so.
 
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FireDragon76

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Yes, but that changes nothing about his politics, nor about the fact that he was very much conservative theologically as well as politically.
His "thesis" (to use an anacrhonistic term) was deeply and passionately opposed to the mindset of the French revolution.

There is indeed no problem with Christianity and appreciation for the humanities coexisting. Grundtvig saw that. Which is why he has the status of "founding father" (to use a term that doesn't really apply since we're over 1000 years old already) here. But the quote as you use it is DEFINITELY something Grundtvig himself would not have appreciated. He'd have felt misused. And rightfully so.


I don't think I have to agree with everything an historical figure stood for, to quote him. It's sufficient that I agree with some aspects of his churchmanship and theological orientation.

Grundtvig is a respected figure in our church, primarily for his hymns, but also his spirituality, so that is why I referenced him. It's just something I did around the time we commemorated him. However, our church in the US is multi-ethnic, and not tied to any particular nationalism or phylitism. I myself am of primarily English ancestry and I am Lutheran for theological reasons. Our congregation also has Spanish language services as some of our members prefer to speak their native language.
 
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SolomonVII

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In every place and time there is variation. I think of Armenians' relations with Muslims and like to remind myself that it was the Muslim leadership of Persia that directly aided in the construction of New Julfa (including its church, if I recall correctly), when a wave of Armenians came to escape persecution from the Turkic Muslims in what is now Azerbaijan. Whether or not anyone here would agree, I'm pretty sure those Persian rulers would've said that helping the Armenians is entirely consistent with the values of Islam. That's the trouble with Islam and indeed all religions at some level: It's not just one thing, so you're going to get a lot of variation. And unfortunately a lot of people won't make the distinction between the religion and the people who practice it. The more hardline among the religious might even say it's wrong to make such a distinction; I've known plenty of people from across the Middle East and North Africa who say that this is a huge impediment to the growth of truly secular democracy -- you can't have a strong secular party in Egypt like the Wafd of old now, because everyone is trained to think in a sectarian manner, to the benefit of religious demagogues, be they Sunni, Shia, Coptic, or whatever. This is why the true secularists from Egypt or Iraq who I've met say the first goal is to get religion off of national ID. It's not like people wouldn't be able to tell that you're Coptic anyway with a name like Bishoy, or Armenian if you have a name like Vartan, etc.

Anyway, all of this is to say thar I more or less agree with you, but would still be hesitant to ascribe goodness to Islam without also balancing it with something less than good, not to the denigration of Muslim people but because the variation across Muslim societies, together with the theocratic attitude that the religion is to be the defining factor of the society, basically forces us to say "Okay, Islam in this place/time is like this, or like that" (depending), even when what we're really talking about is the actions of people and regimes (e.g., the young Turks, the Persians who helped build New Julfa, etc).

Because Islam tends to be more explicitly theocratic in the modern world than other religions, it is sometimes difficult to maintain proper distinctions. It wasn't Copts who put article 2 (mandating Sharia as the principle source of legislation, not to be contradicted) in the Egyptian constitution in the 1980s. That was politicians appealing to/trying to pacify the MB and other Salafist types, who are of course Muslims. So what're you gonna do, really? I'm truly glad that your family in Lebanon felt so safe among Muslims. I wish that was every native Christian's experience in the region, but I know it isn't. It'd be nice to get some recognition of that from those who are supposedly all about protecting those who are discriminated against on account of their religion (an inherently worthy goal). You don't need to trash millions of people to recognize that their religion or it's impact on the societies in which it predominates is at best a mixed bag. That's a conversation I'd like to see happening more often among the religious, both Muslim and non, instead of the likes of Bill Maher and Sam Harris, who cannot provide a religiously informed view in the first place.
The problem is not so much with a liberal’s inability to discern the many variants among the cultures and sects and individuals that make up the billion or so people who identify as Moslems.
In a way, it doesn’t really matter how people self identify. The problem lies more with modern liberals inability to assert their own values as sacrosanct when it comes to the structure of liberal democracies. As long as sovereignty is asserted to lie within the individual and not the group, and that principle is asserted to be foundational by all who chose to live among us, then individuals can choose to believe whatever they want to believe.
Rotherham only happens when liberals abandon their liberal principles, and put the rights of the ‘oppressed group’ over the rights and responsibilities inherent in the individual citizens.
Ultimately who cares is an atheist describes Christianity as a crap religion, or if a Christian differentiates between ‘good Islam, bad Islam’?
What really matters is that the liberal principals that are the foundations of our societies are not just seen as one narrative among many in a multicultural universe, but are agreed to by all who decide to live among us.
 
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I'm curious why you identify with 'fellow liberals'?
Christianity is not a 'liberal' belief, sin is sin despite what we might want to believe.

As for why liberals are as you say 'hostile' to Christianity. This is partly because it shows them up in a very bad light and partly because this is a spiritual battle and as agents of the devil they are atacking that which is right. ( agents of the devil, because they are not followers of Jesus, rescued from the kingdom of darkness they are still his followers. )
When did Mainstream Christians decide that Republican=Born Again Christian? They partake in the seven things God hates! I am no fan of liberals but I am not a fan of almost any republican out there. Both parties worship the almighty dollar and yes some liberals seem to care more for the poor while republicans continue to worship that dollar bill.

On another note, although this post is a month old, I like that the OP brings this up. I too have noticed a shift. The Islam religion is a very hard taskmaster and no true liberal would be happy under its rule.
 
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SolomonVII

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There are a lot of good reasons why liberals would not be Republicans, and for sure Christian liberals, etc. even can zealously pronounce Republican as blasphemy and sin and greed as good as Jesus did against Pharisees.
Allelluia!
There is no correlation between fanatic zealotry to one’s vision of God and either liberal or conservative or any other political option.
The converse about democrats and conservatives is also true. Lots of good reason why not to be Democrat too.
There’s no system in Islamic countries or thelogy that are better than liberal civil society.
Pakistan maybe? Saudi Arabia? Egypt?
Ask Daniel Pipes about Turkey.
There isi no moral equivalence between political systems. America is not the Satan here.

Liberals make a very poor case of how great America is.
When people come ulelating about how great sharia is in comparison to anything, think Pakistan.

Then teach your children better about what is really out there as alternatives to American free enterprise, of either direction.
 
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The OP and some recent responses have assumed something that I don't think is true. As far as I know, liberals are concerned about Muslims when they're minorities that are discriminated against. I'm not aware of liberals considering Pakistan, etc, as a better society than the US.
 
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SolomonVII

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I think that many Muslim can be sold on the idea that American, or even European nationalistic pluralism, is a good system to build a life in, and preserve.

Liberals have been very poor at making that argument to them, or even their own children.
 
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The OP and some recent responses have assumed something that I don't think is true. As far as I know, liberals are concerned about Muslims when they're minorities that are discriminated against. I'm not aware of liberals considering Pakistan, etc, as a better society than the US.
Bingo!
You are not aware...
Liberals do make a very good case of Western society being rapacious, genocidal against Indians, racist, sexist, and the whole list. Of that we are all certainly very aware.

Ask Osama. He repeats the same. He is very tuned in to that message.

But when it comes to making the case for America, we have to presume what a liberal must think. We are not made aware of the liberal case for America.
Or, why would a liberal defend a country in which police hunt down black men in the streets and kill them?

We have to presume what that case might be because liberals simply do not make the case that liberal democracy is as good as it gets. The liberal case is that Americans (and Europeans) who do make that case for American exceptionalism are all xenophobes.
Multiculturalism in the name of oppressed groups is the case that liberals make. Postmodernists case is that all truths are narrative, and equally valid. That is the case that liberals do make. More oppressed means more true. Muslims are way,way, above Jews, for example, in that hierarchy, according to liberals.

Muslim leaders, for their part, make the case for Islamic supremacy time and again. Multiculturalism forfeits all criticism of this to where the case for the superiority of the Western system of individual liberty is not made, by liberals.

That is the situation that “later posts” are responding to.
The case for multiculturalism is the case for all systems being basically equal.
 
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