Scapegoat

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
"It is finished. Your sin is atoned for." Yes, for believers ... not for unbelievers.

There are more believers yet to come ... until the Lord comes back.

If they (both goats) were representing Christ ... then why are Lots cast upon the two goats? One lot is for the “Lord’s” goat (without blemish) and the other is for “Azazel” [the scapegoat] (imperfect).
We were once "unbelievers". So there's no hope for unbelievers (in your mind)? Jesus didn't die for them? You're presenting a catch 22 dilema (Jesus didn't die for unbelievers so their sins can't be forgiven).

Lots were cast because there were two parts to ONE sacrifice. It's impossible to represent life and death with one goat (like the lamb in Rev 5:6). It was also prophetic. Do you recall lots being cast during Jesus' crucifixion?
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Pneuma3
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,696
5,613
Utah
✟713,367.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
You're saying the scapegoat represents Satan - that he will be killed later for ALL sin.... because he is the "responsible agent in sin". That would then mean we were always innocent (bore no responsibility for sin) - and Jesus then died for the sake of Satan.

That is not what I am saying at all .... what I am saying is that sin will not be totally eradicated until God destroys it.

How did sin on earth come about in the first place? Through satan who sinned in heaven and then was cast to the earth.

"That would then mean we were always innocent (bore no responsibility for sin) - and Jesus then died for the sake of Satan." BALONY and did not say this.

We have choice ... each will be responsible for the sin(s) they committed ... however satan was the one that caused sin in the first place and will be held responsible to that act.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,696
5,613
Utah
✟713,367.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
We were once "unbelievers". So there's no hope for unbelievers (in your mind)? Jesus didn't die for them?

Jesus died for everybody ... but everybody has choice and some will not choose Him.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
One lot is for the “Lord’s” goat (without blemish) and the other is for “Azazel” [the scapegoat] (imperfect).
You're imposing your own ideas on to the Scripture.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Pneuma3
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
How did sin on earth come about in the first place? Through satan who sinned in heaven and then was cast to the earth.

"That would then mean we were always innocent (bore no responsibility for sin) - and Jesus then died for the sake of Satan." BALONY and did not say this.
All I'm doing is quoting your words back to you.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Why were lots cast?
You're asking this question in response to me posting that you're imposing your own ideas on to Scripture. I posted that when you stated that one goat was "imperfect". The text does not state that. Lots were cast and it was unknown by anyone which goat would be the burnt sacrifice and which would be the scapegoat (so BOTH had to be without blemish).
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Pneuma3
Upvote 0

Pneuma3

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2006
1,637
382
✟54,054.00
Faith
Christian
and there are these points:

Hebrews 8

22 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make an atonement for your souls upon the altar, since it is the lifeblood that makes atonement.

The scapegoats blood was not shed.

Leviticus 16:20, 21 And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat.

The scapegoat (live goat) was brought AFTER the atoning (slain goat).

Leviticus 16:20, 21 And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat. Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man.”

Note: It is shown that Satan is the responsible agent in sin. The scapegoat, which represents Satan, in no way bears, or pays for, our sins. Only Christ [1 John 1:7] bears the penalty for sin [Isaiah 53]. That's why Lord's goat was slain. Jesus alone "taketh away the sin of the world" [John 1:29]. Scapegoat comes after END of atoning for the people by the blood of the Lord's goat. This service simply shows that Satan is the final responsible agent in sin. He is charged with the sins that he lead the redeemed to commit.

Scapegoat contaminates
Leviticus 16:26 And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp”

Note: Another reason why the Scapegoat cannot represent Christ is because it contaminated people who came into contact with it. Surely, this can’t be a symbol Christ (John 1:29).

That is in total disregard to what the scripture actually say read verse 10 carefully it says the scapegoat was for atonement and you are saying no it is not. Thus your understanding that the scapegoat is not for atonement is unbiblical.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
"that would mean" .... is not quoting ... that is your understanding or misunderstanding of what is being said.
It's the logical conclusion. If Satan is solely responsible for sin coming in to the world (and he needs to "pay for it") then who did Jesus die on the cross for? We'd just be bystanders.... wouldn't we?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one ...

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

New International Version Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because ...
And what's the rest of that passage say? All of humanity is united. If we inherit our sin from Adam, Christ has undone that and given us ALL new life (verse 17).
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
And what's the rest of that verse say? All of humanity is united. If we inherit our sin from Adam, Christ has undone that and given us ALL new life.
Only if you ignore all of Yahweh's Word, Plan and Purpose.

As I noticed in part, in other posts in the past.

No, few ever find new life. Most reject Jesus, and serve demons.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,696
5,613
Utah
✟713,367.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
You're asking this question in response to me posting that you're imposing your own ideas on to Scripture. I posted that when you stated that one goat was "imperfect". The text does not state that. Lots were cast and it was unknown by anyone which goat would be the burnt sacrifice and which would be the scapegoat (so BOTH had to be without blemish).

Leviticus 16

6Aaron is to present the bull for his sin offering and make atonement for himself and his household. 7 Then he shall take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.

8After Aaron casts lots for the two goats, one for the LORD and the other for the scapegoat, 9 he shall present the goat chosen by lot for the LORD and sacrifice it as a sin offering.

Leviticus 16

20 When Aaron has finished purifying the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting, and the altar, he is to bring forward the live goat. 21Then he is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the iniquities and rebellious acts of the Israelites in regard to all their sins. He is to put them on the goat’s head and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man appointed for the task. 22The goat will carry on itself all their iniquities into a solitary place, and the man will release it into the wilderness.

Leviticus 17

11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make an atonement for your souls upon the altar, since it is the lifeblood that makes atonement.

Obviously we disagree ... so will have to agree to disagree.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Obviously we disagree ... so will have to agree to disagree.
Yes, we disagree - but the support of your argument is not written in the Scripture you quoted. It comes from presuppositions you're bringing in. In general, it's important to know that false assumptions will blind a person to truth.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Pneuma3
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
And what's the rest of that passage say? All of humanity is united. If we inherit our sin from Adam, Christ has undone that and given us ALL new life (verse 17).

Only if you ignore all of Yahweh's Word, Plan and Purpose.

As I noticed in part, in other posts in the past.
That IS God's word.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. - 1 Corinthians 15:22
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Pneuma3
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,696
5,613
Utah
✟713,367.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
That is in total disregard to what the scripture actually say read verse 10 carefully it says the scapegoat was for atonement and you are saying no it is not. Thus your understanding that the scapegoat is not for atonement is unbiblical.

well ... go read about
azazel in the Jewish Encylopedia (link below)

If you do not go read it ... do not bother to reply.

Leveticus 16

8
He is to cast lots for the two goats--one lot for the LORD and the other for the scapegoat.

The word scapegoat is translated from the Hebrew word azael

azazel: entire removal
Original Word: עֲזָאזֵל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: azazel
Phonetic Spelling: (az-aw-zale')
Definition: entire removal

AZAZEL - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
picky.
pick and choose. pick and choose. anarchy? believe what you pick,
ignore the rest. as in the past. worse today.
I'm not ignoring a thing.

So when I quote Scripture I'm cherry picking, but when others only share half of the story (leaving out the redemptive work of Christ) I'm the one that's ignoring His word?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,696
5,613
Utah
✟713,367.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I'm not ignoring a thing.

So when I quote Scripture I'm cherry picking, but when others only share half of the story (leaving out the redemptive work of Christ) I'm the one that's ignoring His word?

go read about
azazel in the Jewish Encylopedia (link below)

If you do not go read it ... do not bother to reply.

Leveticus 16

8
He is to cast lots for the two goats--one lot for the LORD and the other for the scapegoat.

The word scapegoat is translated from the Hebrew word azazel

azazel: entire removal
Original Word: עֲזָאזֵל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: azazel
Phonetic Spelling: (az-aw-zale')
Definition: entire removal

AZAZEL - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 
Upvote 0