Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

thesunisout · Jan 5, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Cessationism:
Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.
(Note: This does not mean miracles have ceased, but it means that the gift of healing or the gift of miraculous gifts and prophecy as seen in the early church has ceased).

Important Note:
Please keep in mind that I am not claiming that all brothers and sisters are automatically liars if they believe they have done genuine miracles or they have seen what they believe to be genuine miracles. I am always open to the possibility that God may operate miraculously today on rare occasions. I am also aware that I am human and fallible and I would not want to speak against the true working of the power of God today. So unless I see or witness a group's miracles and beliefs, I am not claiming all who claim to be working by God's power today are not genuine. In fact, there is a brother I feel close with who believes that he operates by God's power and miracles. I cannot honestly say how God is operating in His life. But yet I know the Bible tells me that miraculous gifts have ceased, though. Perhaps for us, it is a matter of perspective. In either case, here is my Biblical case for Cessationism (The ceasing of miraculous gifts given to the apostles).

Tongues and prophecy have ceased ~ 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says, “...whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;” and verse 8 says, “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” The question is when do tongues and prophecies cease? Verse 10 says “ when that which is perfect is come”; And verse 11 says, “when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Are we going to be children (and not men) upon this Earth until Christ takes us home?

Both 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 describe something that is “perfect” and “looking into a mirror.” In 1 Corinthians 13, that which is “perfect” (neuter in the Greek) fits the reference to the “Perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25) (Which would also be neuter). The law of the Lord is “perfect” (Psalms 19:7). All Scripture (the Bible) is profitable so that the man of God may be “perfect” unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

That which is perfect is Christ. Look at verses 10 and 12

10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Verse 10 says that when the perfect has come, what is in part will be done away, correct? Do you see how verse 12 talks about now and then? Now I know in part, then I shall know just as I also am known. Now is before the perfect comes, and then is after the perfect comes. Do you now see face to face? Who do you see face to face with? Do you now no longer know in part but know just as you also are known? Who are you known by and how do you know as well as you are known by them?

Do you see how that makes absolutely no sense except in the context of the coming of Jesus Christ? We see in a mirror, now, dimly..but then (the second coming) face to face. We will see Him face to face. Now we know in part..but then we will know just as we are known by Jesus. We will know Him and He will be our God and we will be His people.

Those verses do not by any means prove cessationism, a concept alien to the scripture, which predicts a massive uptick in supernatural activity in the end times, including 2 end time prophets called the 2 witnessess. They give us a wonderful vision of what it will be like when we see our Savior face to face.

Pavel Mosko · Jan 5, 2019

(Responding to the original post) Wow this is a subject, I've thought a lot about and was on the verge of doing a You-tube video or two on !

Your Cessionist position is a lot better and more thought out than the one I was given while taking Lutheran Confirmation Class as an adolescent ("that miracles etc. had died out with the apostles"). It reminds me of one that I have heard recently, where it is defined as a person in the bible "wielding their gift" (but not otherwise denying that miracles and so on can happen).

So far, the biggest weakness in your position is the Bible verse where Jesus promised the disciples "greater works" than him (John 14:12). That can be interpreted in different ways. The disciples were more successful in preaching Jesus (results wise) than Jesus, but as far as their miracles etc. I can't think of anything that would outshine him. That passage especially has implications for today and whenever "the last days are" or will be because the closer we get to the end the more the light will shine. So at some point things have to start up again unless if you are a full blown Preterist (and I would be interested in how you interpret "the Two Witnesses").

But I do understand or sympathize with the position. The original apologist I ran across who gave a similar point of view mentioned how healings etc. at Charismatic meetings cannot be done on the spot (like is seen in gospels and book of Acts) but instead must happen after hours of prayer, a worship service and so on. And Well in all the things, I've seen in Charismatic meetings and personal experience that certainly seems the case.

I also believe the 1 Corinthians 13 passage is one that is hard to get around. People like to equate perfection with various things like the Bible etc. but it hard to argue for that (people have had the full NT canon for 1600 years or so and are still messed up). I really believe the right understanding of this passage is in form of the idea of obsolescence. The Gifts are superseded when we do actually enter perfection as far as being in full Communion with God in the afterlife, the world to Come etc. You for example don't need the gift of healing when you have a perfect immortal body and death and entropy etc. have been vanquished. You have no need of prophecy etc. when you can talk to God face to face and so on.

But I believe that there are spiritual seasons or dispensations. During the time just before Christ between the Testaments, there also was a dimming of the supernatural (Some believe there were no miracles this time, but I will give the Essenes and some of the rabbis the benefit of the doubt on this one). I believe that God does this at times to act as a foil, to highlight what His will is etc. so people pay close attention when the various prophets and apostles show up. And naturally, I suspect that is also going on today.

DamianWarS · Jan 5, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I am a simple person. I like it when folks talk to me plainly in not in a language that is no longer in existence that they cannot possibly know with 100% certainty.

you realized we no longer speak english as written in the KJV and it is a dead language, so the very words you cherish contradict you. I also like to keep things simple and reading the 1 Cor 13 text Christ is the simplest and more natural answer; I'm sure the Corinthian church certainly didn't think it was the completion of the canon. It wasn't until I picked up a commentary on the passage in 1 Cor 13 in my 20's that I realise there is controversy but it stuck me as odd as it would seem one of the most simplest answers, rather than some convoluted one pointing to a time never mentioned in scripture that a lot of christians don't even know about. If you're looking for simple read the passage to a child then ask them what they think "that which is perfect" is and see what they say.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 5, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
What about the word "and" do you not understand? Praying in the Spirit is praying in tongues. He doesn't mean at the same time, but in general. He will not just pray in tongues, or just pray with the understanding, but will utilize both.

Good night. This conversation is getting embarrassing. I am embarrassed for you.

1. Some, not all
1 Corinthians 12:8-11 and 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 make it unmistakably clear that not everyone received the gift of tongues (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:26). Note that there is no contextual or grammatical warrant for seeing 1 Corinthians 12 as one type of tongues (that only a few receive) and 1 Corinthians 14 as a different type (that everyone is to receive). Along those lines, Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 14:5 (“Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues”) is almost identical to his earlier statement in 1 Corinthians 7:7 regarding singleness. (“Yet I wish that all men were even as myself”). Thus, Paul’s wish does not indicate that everyone in the Corinthian congregation actually spoke in tongues.

2. “Tongues of angels”
The “tongues of angels” in 1 Corinthians 13:1 should be interpreted hyperbolically in keeping with the context of the passage (as Paul’s subsequent examples demonstrate). It may even be a figure of speech meaning “to speak very eloquently.” If one insists on taking it literally, there are still two things to consider: (1) It is the exception and not the rule, as evidenced by the rest of the New Testament teaching on tongues and as evidenced by the other examples Paul uses in vv. 1–3. (2) Every time angels spoke in the Bible, they spoke in a real language that people could understand (cf. Genesis 19, Daniel 9, and Revelation 19).

3. “To God and not to men”
Paul defines what he means by “speaking to God and not to men” when he says that “no one understands” (14:2). This would be true of a foreign language that someone spoke but no one else knew. The hearers would not be edified because they would not understand what was being said.

4. Rational message
The concept of interpretation implies a rational message. As Norm Geisler (Signs and Wonders Wheaton, IL: Tyndale, 1998, p. 167) explains: “The fact that the tongues of which Paul spoke in 1 Corinthians could be ‘interpreted’ shows that it was a meaningful language. Otherwise it would not be an ‘interpretation’ but a creation of the meaning. So the gift of ‘interpretation’ (1 Corinthians 12:30, 1 Corinthians 14:5, 1 Corinthians 14:13) supports the fact that tongues were a real language that could be translated for the benefit of all by this special gift of interpretation.”

5. Edifying the body
The purpose of the gifts (within the church) is to edify the body (1 Corinthians 12:7; cf. 1 Peter 4:10-11). Paul’s whole point is that love is superior to the gifts (1 Corinthians 13). The intended use of tongues, therefore, occurs when the message is translated so that fellow believers are edified. Tongues (languages) that are not translated do not profit the body because the message cannot be understood (1 Corinthians 14:6–11). Paul is not promoting a private use of tongues, since that does not edify others—cf. 1 Corinthians 14:12-19.

6. Public prayer
The context implies that Paul’s prayer in 1 Corinthians 14:14-15 is a public prayer, not a private prayer, since the entire discussion regards the use of the gift in the church, and since verse 16 mentions that the ungifted person (who does not understand the language being spoken) will not be able to affirm a public prayer that he does not understand. Again, verses 14-15 do not mitigate against the view that tongues are authentic foreign languages. The person who prays in a foreign language should also pray that he will be able to interpret the foreign language so that all who are present will be blessed by the translation of the message.

7. Order
The gift of tongues was to be used in an orderly manner in the church (1 Corinthians 14:27-28, 1 Corinthians 14:39-40). Any disruptive or disorderly use of tongues-speaking goes against the way God intended the gift to be used.

8. Texts
There are no other passages that specifically teach about the gift of tongues. Some charismatics try to find tongues in Romans 8:26, and 2 Corinthians 5:13, but the context in those passages makes it clear that the gift of tongues is not in view.

9. Foreign language
The gift of tongues were real actual foreign languages (Which is what made it a miracle to those who heard it because they could recognize if the language was from a certain region or not).

Testimony of the church fathers
While not authoritative, the universal testimony of the church fathers supports the cessationist understanding of tongues. They interpreted that gift as consisting of rational, foreign languages. Though many could be cited, here is a small sampling from several early Christian leaders.

John Chrysostom (c. 344–407), commenting on 1 Corinthians 14:1-2: “And as in the time of building the tower [of Babel] the one tongue was divided into many; so then the many tongues frequently met in one man, and the same person used to discourse both in the Persian, and the Roman, and the Indian, and many other tongues, the Spirit sounding within him: and the gift was called the gift of tongues because he could all at once speak divers languages” (Homilies on First Corinthians, 35.1).

Severian of Gabala (d. c. 408): “The person who speaks in the Holy Spirit speaks when he chooses to do so and then can be silent, like the prophets. But those who are possessed by an unclean spirit speak even when they do not want to. They say things that they do not understand” (Pauline Commentary from the Greek Church. Cited from 1–2 Corinthians, Ancient Christian Commentary Series, 144, in reference to 1 Corinthians 14:28).

Based on the biblical and historical evidence, the gift of tongues was a supernaturally endowed ability, given by the Holy Spirit to select Christians, enabling those believers to speak in previously unlearned human languages. The intended use of the gift involved the translation of the message for the general edification of fellow believers or evangelism of unbelievers. This ability was not given to all Christians nor were they commanded to seek it. It was not considered the hallmark of the early church, nor is it ever highlighted as a normal part of the Christian experience.

When we compare the biblical evidence to modern charismatic and continuationist experience, we find that the two are not the same. The New Testament presents the speaking of tongues as the miraculous ability to speak previously unlearned foreign languages. Clearly, that does not match the contemporary phenomenon (Which has been analyzed by linguistics today as not being a real language).

As Norm Geisler observes,

Even those who believe in tongues acknowledge that unsaved people have tongues experiences. There is nothing supernatural about them. But there is something unique about speaking complete and meaningful sentences and discourses in a knowable language to which one has never been exposed. This is what the real New Testament gift of tongues entailed. Anything short of this, as “private tongues” are, should not be considered the biblical gift of tongues. (Signs and Wonders)

When we approach the continuationist/cessationist debate by first defining the gifts biblically, it becomes apparent that modern charismatic practice does not match the New Testament phenomena. The gift of tongues provides a vivid illustration of that reality—but the same is also true for prophecy and healing. Though continuationists use New Testament terminology to describe their contemporary experience, the reality is that such experiences are far different than what was actually happening in the first-century church.

Source used:
Addressing the Charismatic Question, Part 2 | SHARPER IRON

Bible Highlighter · Jan 5, 2019

Pavel Mosko said:
(Responding to the original post) Wow this is a subject, I've thought a lot about and was on the verge of doing a You-tube video or two on !

Your Cessionist position is a lot better and more thought out than the one I was given while taking Lutheran Confirmation Class as an adolescent ("that miracles etc. had died out with the apostles"). It reminds me of one that I have heard recently, where it is defined as a person in the bible "wielding their gift" (but not otherwise denying that miracles and so on can happen).

Thank you. Well, I leave room for the possibility that I could be wrong because if I speak against all who do miracles, I could end up speaking against God if I am wrong.

You said:
So far, the biggest weakness in your position is the Bible verse where Jesus promised the disciples "greater works" than him (John 14:12). That can be interpreted in different ways. The disciples were more successful in preaching Jesus (results wise) than Jesus, but as far as their miracles etc. I can't think of anything that would outshine him. That passage especially has implications for today and whenever "the last days are" or will be because the closer we get to the end the more the light will shine.

The greater works is than these is the spiritual works that leads a person to salvation. A person may be physically healed, or they may be fed by a miracle of a bunch of loaves or fish, but if they are still unsaved, they have not been effected by the greatest works (Which is the spiritual works of a person's heart being changed by God).

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16).

"But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant." (Matthew 23:11).

It is interesting to note that those who sought after the physical bread and fish by way of Christ's miracles did not understand that the best miracle or work was to believe in the Bread of Life (Jesus Christ).

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (John 6:29).

You said:
So at some point things have to start up again unless if you are a full blown Preterist (and I would be interested in how you interpret "the Two Witnesses").

I am not a Preterist. The two witnesses is clearly Moses and Elijah and they are OT saints and not NT saints (Who were under the commands given to them by Jesus Christ). They were already miracle workers from the OT (followed by an eventual period of time without any major working of miracles being done). These two witnesses appeared at the Mt. of Transfiguration with Jesus and the sons of thunder (Peter, James, and John).

You said:
But I do understand or sympathize with the position. The original apologist I ran across who gave a similar point of view mentioned how healings etc. at Charismatic meetings cannot be done on the spot (like is seen in gospels and book of Acts) but instead must happen after hours of prayer, a worship service and so on. And Well in all the things, I've seen in Charismatic meetings and personal experience that certainly seems the case.

I have not witnessed all Charismatic meetings. But if you were to ever do a search on YouTube for a video called "Kundalini Warning by Andrew Strom" you should by all respects be greatly disturbed by what you see in that video. Those who do not see a problem with the video, I can only pray for them and love them.

There is an online brother of mine who believes he works by miracles, but he disagrees with the Toronto Church movement and other things seen in the video. But my authority is Scripture and not my brother's experiences. I have not seen what he has done and I cannot say if it is by God or not.

You said:
I also believe the 1 Corinthians 13 passage is one that is hard to get around. People like to equate perfection with various things like the Bible etc. but it hard to argue for that (people have had the full NT canon for 1600 years or so and are still messed up). I really believe the right understanding of this passage is in form of the idea of obsolescence. The Gifts are superseded when we do actually enter perfection as far as being in full Communion with God in the afterlife, the world to Come etc. You for example don't need the gift of healing when you have a perfect immortal body and death and entropy etc. have been vanquished. You have no need of prophecy etc. when you can talk to God face to face and so on.

When we compare 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1, we see that there are similarities.

#1. Perfect is present in both.

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (1 Corinthians 13:10).

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:25).

#2. Mirror/Glass is present in both.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly;"
(1 Corinthians 13:12).

23 "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:23-25).

#3. Looking into a Mirror/Glass is present in both.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:" (1 Corinthians 13:12).

We see through a glass, but we can see our reflection in this glass and become face to face with ourselves (i.e. the reflection of our face, and our real face).

23 "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:23-25).

#4. Love is present in both.

"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." (1 Corinthians 13:13).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

#5. Being immature (a child, knowing in part, or forgetful) is present in both.

Children lack knowledge. They know in part.

11 "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Corinthians 13:11-12).

James talks about how one who does not do God's Word is like a person who looks into a mirror and forgets what he looks like. They know in part, too. They may know certain things, but they cannot remember what they look like in the mirror. They are like a child if they do not obey God's Word.

22 "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:22-25).

Children can sometimes be forgetful, too.

In addition, we also have to take a step back and remind ourselves that 1 Corinthians 13 is the famous love chapter. How did Jesus say we are to love Him? Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). These commandments are found within His Word. James says,

3 "...the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:3-4).

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:25).

Deborah D · Jan 5, 2019

The verbosity on the part of cessationism proponents is astounding.

1stcenturylady · Jan 5, 2019

It doesn't matter how long your post is, you still don't understand.

Jason0047 said:
1. Some, not all
1 Corinthians 12:8-11 and 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 make it unmistakably clear that not everyone received the gift of tongues (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:26). Note that there is no contextual or grammatical warrant for seeing 1 Corinthians 12 as one type of tongues (that only a few receive) and 1 Corinthians 14 as a different type (that everyone is to receive). Along those lines, Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 14:5 (“Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues”) is almost identical to his earlier statement in 1 Corinthians 7:7 regarding singleness. (“Yet I wish that all men were even as myself”). Thus, Paul’s wish does not indicate that everyone in the Corinthian congregation actually spoke in tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31 makes it clear that not everyone receives the gift of diverse kinds of tongues that need to be interpreted. That is like an office as were apostle, prophet, teacher (also mentioned). They were appointed by God to receive messages in tongues FROM God, which then must be interpreted by the person that had the supernatural gift of interpretation of tongues. If that person that everyone knew wasn't present, they were to remain quiet.

Mark 16:16-18 shows us that ALL WHO BELIEVE shall speak in tongues, etc. They pray TO God. They give praise TO God. That is you, my dear friend. You have the authorization and ability, but you've wrapped yourself up with so many chains of unbelief, you can't be free, and now can't even discern the written Word.

1 Corinthians 14 is about the difference between the sign and the gift. TO God or FROM God. All the believers in the church at Corinth could speak in tongues and they did so joyfully, but out of order. They also did so all at the same time. That is why it is a sign to the unbeliever. An unbeliever coming in and seeing this would think he'd stepped into an asylum. The sign is a negative sign, confirming the unbeliever in their unbelief. It is the same type of sign as Jesus in Luke 2:34, "a sign which will be spoken against".

Paul wishes that all spoke in tongues, because then all would believe and be saved. That is his wish that all come to the knowledge of Christ Jesus. But we all know that not every person in every church is saved.

Paul also wishes for them who only have the sign of tongues to grow into leadership and receive the higher gifts for the profit of all, such as turning their ability to speak in tongues to receive messages of revelation, knowledge, prophesying, or teaching that require interpretation.

1stcenturylady · Jan 5, 2019

Pavel Mosko said:
(Responding to the original post) Wow this is a subject, I've thought a lot about and was on the verge of doing a You-tube video or two on !

Your Cessionist position is a lot better and more thought out than the one I was given while taking Lutheran Confirmation Class as an adolescent ("that miracles etc. had died out with the apostles"). It reminds me of one that I have heard recently, where it is defined as a person in the bible "wielding their gift" (but not otherwise denying that miracles and so on can happen).

So far, the biggest weakness in your position is the Bible verse where Jesus promised the disciples "greater works" than him (John 14:12). That can be interpreted in different ways. The disciples were more successful in preaching Jesus (results wise) than Jesus, but as far as their miracles etc. I can't think of anything that would outshine him. That passage especially has implications for today and whenever "the last days are" or will be because the closer we get to the end the more the light will shine. So at some point things have to start up again unless if you are a full blown Preterist (and I would be interested in how you interpret "the Two Witnesses").

But I do understand or sympathize with the position. The original apologist I ran across who gave a similar point of view mentioned how healings etc. at Charismatic meetings cannot be done on the spot (like is seen in gospels and book of Acts) but instead must happen after hours of prayer, a worship service and so on. And Well in all the things, I've seen in Charismatic meetings and personal experience that certainly seems the case.

I also believe the 1 Corinthians 13 passage is one that is hard to get around. People like to equate perfection with various things like the Bible etc. but it hard to argue for that (people have had the full NT canon for 1600 years or so and are still messed up). I really believe the right understanding of this passage is in form of the idea of obsolescence. The Gifts are superseded when we do actually enter perfection as far as being in full Communion with God in the afterlife, the world to Come etc. You for example don't need the gift of healing when you have a perfect immortal body and death and entropy etc. have been vanquished. You have no need of prophecy etc. when you can talk to God face to face and so on.

But I believe that there are spiritual seasons or dispensations. During the time just before Christ between the Testaments, there also was a dimming of the supernatural (Some believe there were no miracles this time, but I will give the Essenes and some of the rabbis the benefit of the doubt on this one). I believe that God does this at times to act as a foil, to highlight what His will is etc. so people pay close attention when the various prophets and apostles show up. And naturally, I suspect that is also going on today.

I see you believe in dispensations, but nothing changes in a covenant. The gifts are still a part of the covenant. However, inside this new covenant was the early and latter rain. The early rain of the Holy Spirit happened at the beginning of the church. But then their came a dry spell where only a few worked miracles all throughout. And now is the time of the latter rain to prepare the Bride for her Husband.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 5, 2019

Pavel Mosko said:
(Responding to the original post) Wow this is a subject, I've thought a lot about and was on the verge of doing a You-tube video or two on !

Your Cessionist position is a lot better and more thought out than the one I was given while taking Lutheran Confirmation Class as an adolescent ("that miracles etc. had died out with the apostles"). It reminds me of one that I have heard recently, where it is defined as a person in the bible "wielding their gift" (but not otherwise denying that miracles and so on can happen).

So far, the biggest weakness in your position is the Bible verse where Jesus promised the disciples "greater works" than him (John 14:12). That can be interpreted in different ways. The disciples were more successful in preaching Jesus (results wise) than Jesus, but as far as their miracles etc. I can't think of anything that would outshine him. That passage especially has implications for today and whenever "the last days are" or will be because the closer we get to the end the more the light will shine. So at some point things have to start up again unless if you are a full blown Preterist (and I would be interested in how you interpret "the Two Witnesses").

But I do understand or sympathize with the position. The original apologist I ran across who gave a similar point of view mentioned how healings etc. at Charismatic meetings cannot be done on the spot (like is seen in gospels and book of Acts) but instead must happen after hours of prayer, a worship service and so on. And Well in all the things, I've seen in Charismatic meetings and personal experience that certainly seems the case.

I also believe the 1 Corinthians 13 passage is one that is hard to get around. People like to equate perfection with various things like the Bible etc. but it hard to argue for that (people have had the full NT canon for 1600 years or so and are still messed up). I really believe the right understanding of this passage is in form of the idea of obsolescence. The Gifts are superseded when we do actually enter perfection as far as being in full Communion with God in the afterlife, the world to Come etc. You for example don't need the gift of healing when you have a perfect immortal body and death and entropy etc. have been vanquished. You have no need of prophecy etc. when you can talk to God face to face and so on.

But I believe that there are spiritual seasons or dispensations. During the time just before Christ between the Testaments, there also was a dimming of the supernatural (Some believe there were no miracles this time, but I will give the Essenes and some of the rabbis the benefit of the doubt on this one). I believe that God does this at times to act as a foil, to highlight what His will is etc. so people pay close attention when the various prophets and apostles show up. And naturally, I suspect that is also going on today.

For more on 1 Corinthians 13:

We will see our image conform or change to the image of Christ in light of the "Bible / Glass / Mirror" by our obedience to Jesus's commands (Note: See the pictures below within this post). As we obey His Word, we conform more to the likeness of Christ and when we look in the mirror of God's Word (the Bible), we see the image of Christ in the reflection and not our old reflection by the fact that we are conforming to that "perfect Word" that He has given us. So yes. We do see Christ in the mirror "face to face" but it is only by our conforming to Christ by our obedience to Him. The focus of 1 Corinthians 13 is love. Loving as Christ loved. As a whole: 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 13, 1 Corinthians 14 are dealing with gifts. Although these gifts were necessary at one time (to confirm the Word of the New Covenant and the early church), these gifts have ceased, and they are no longer needed (Because that which is "perfect" has come, i.e. the Bible) whereby we can be "perfect" or be a "mature man" by obeying God's Word by faith (and not by sight). For 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work.

"And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord..." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (AMPC).

"As all of us reflect the glory of the Lord with unveiled faces, we are becoming more like him with ever-increasing glory by the Lord’s Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (ISV).

"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (John 6:40).

2 "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure."
(1 John 3:2-3).

To all:

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2).

16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Gifts are something people can see. But the Word of God (the Bible) is a faith thing.

Jesus said,
"...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).

This would be us today with the Bible.
We don't need spiritual gifts to see in order to believe.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1).

Side Note:

The second image (above) that has a picture of Christ is not what Jesus obviously looks like. I only posted this image for illustrative purposes only. Jesus is not white or European and He more than likely did not have long hair, either.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 5, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
I see you believe in dispensations, but nothing changes in a covenant. The gifts are still a part of the covenant. However, inside this new covenant was the early and latter rain. The early rain of the Holy Spirit happened at the beginning of the church. But then their came a dry spell where only a few worked miracles all throughout. And now is the time of the latter rain to prepare the Bride for her Husband.

For the most part, I believe in Dispensationalism.

What is dispensationalism and is it biblical?
(Note: This may not be an exact representation of what I believe, but it is close).

In other words, do you not believe in the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ? Surely we are commanded to look for Christ's return now; But such a thing will not make sense in the Millennium, though.

I do not believe in Hyper Dispensationalism (or Ultra Dispensationalism).

What is ultra-dispensationalism?

Nor do I believe in Mid Acts Dispensationalism.

What is mid-Acts dispensationalism? What is the Grace Movement, and is it biblical?

1stcenturylady · Jan 5, 2019

Jason0047 said:
For the most part, I believe in Dispensationalism.

What is dispensationalism and is it biblical?
(Note: This may not be an exact representation of what I believe, but it is close).

In other words, do you not believe in the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ? Surely we are commanded to look for Christ's return now; But such a thing will not make sense in the Millennium, though.

I do not believe in Hyper Dispensationalism (or Ultra Dispensationalism).

What is ultra-dispensationalism?

Nor do I believe in Mid Acts Dispensationalism.

What is mid-Acts dispensationalism? What is the Grace Movement, and is it biblical?

Yes, I certainly do believe in the Millennium.

Hosea 6:1-3 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth.

The third day is the Millennium. Notice the early and latter rain. That is the outpourings of the Spirit, and why it is now that we see the gifts reappear to all who believe. Joel 2 on the outpouring of the Holy Spirit also mentions the early and latter rain.

There are many things we hold in common, as you know.

1stcenturylady · Jan 5, 2019

@Jason0047 I don't see that you answered my post #191, so you might have overlooked it as you answered a later post and may have missed the first one.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 5, 2019

Deborah D said:
The verbosity on the part of cessationism proponents is astounding.

When I was a child and I did something naughty and my dad wanted an explanation, he knew when I went to great lengths to give a complicated answer, that I was not telling the truth. His view was that when a person speaks the truth it is usually put in very simple and straight-forward terms.

1stcenturylady · Jan 5, 2019

Oscarr said:
When I was a child and I did something naughty and my dad wanted an explanation, he knew when I went to great lengths to give a complicated answer, that I was not telling the truth. His view was that when a person speaks the truth it is usually put in very simple and straight-forward terms.

I love it! :clap:

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 5, 2019

When I completed my M.A. in English Literature, I had learned to read and comprehend texts. I learned to read what was literally there, what was implied, and the difference between taking what a person wrote literally, and what was twisted around to make it read what a person wants it to read.

When I completed my M.Div. I had learned the principles of hermeneutics, which is the method of interpreting Scripture. I think I should have learned hermeneutics before I did my M.A. because it is a valuable skill for interpreting any literature.

As part of my M.Div I did an exhaustive study of the letters of Paul, and I found that he was direct and straightforward in what he wrote. He wrote in a way that he meant it to be taken literally. With Paul, what you see is what you get. There are no hidden meanings or sub-texts in Paul's writing. He did not write for theologians. He wrote for ordinary people who had just turned from paganism to Christianity. The people he wrote for were not trained professional theologians, therefore he did not write in theological terms.

So, if he wrote that he spoke in tongues more than them all, that's exactly what he did.
If he said he wished they all spoke in tongues, that was his desire for them.
If he made a distinction between speaking in tongues in the church and outside of it, that is exactly what he said.
If he said that speaking in tongues built a person up, then that is exactly how tongues works.
if he said that speaking in tongues is speaking to God, mysteries in the Spirit, then that is exactly what he meant.
If he at any time meant that tongues was an understandable foreign language, then he would have said it plainly. But he didn't.
So, if he said that no man understood tongues when it was spoken, then that is exactly what he meant.
And if he said that if a person wanted to speak in tongues in church without an interpreter, he was still giving thanks well, then that was the case and nothing else. He also said that if there is no interpreter the person should speak to himself and to God. That looks like personal prayer to me, and if he used the expression, "but in the church" then he supported speaking in tongues away from the church environment.

I was a school teacher and I taught 10 year olds English comprehension. If I had given then 1 Corinthians 14, they would have come to the same conclusion I have.

Duke fan · Jan 5, 2019

Hebrews 13:8 says “Jesus Curist the same yesterday, today, and forever.” I believe that the gifts of healing are for today and many Christians have experienced healing by the Lord even today.

1stcenturylady · Jan 5, 2019

Duke fan said:
Hebrews 13:8 says “Jesus Curist the same yesterday, today, and forever.” I believe that the gifts of healing are for today and many Christians have experienced healing by the Lord even today.

What about the rest of the gifts?

1stcenturylady · Jan 5, 2019

Oscarr said:
When I completed my M.A. in English Literature, I had learned to read and comprehend texts. I learned to read what was literally there, what was implied, and the difference between taking what a person wrote literally, and what was twisted around to make it read what a person wants it to read.

When I completed my M.Div. I had learned the principles of hermeneutics, which is the method of interpreting Scripture. I think I should have learned hermeneutics before I did my M.A. because it is a valuable skill for interpreting any literature.

As part of my M.Div I did an exhaustive study of the letters of Paul, and I found that he was direct and straightforward in what he wrote. He wrote in a way that he meant it to be taken literally. With Paul, what you see is what you get. There are no hidden meanings or sub-texts in Paul's writing. He did not write for theologians. He wrote for ordinary people who had just turned from paganism to Christianity. The people he wrote for were not trained professional theologians, therefore he did not write in theological terms.

So, if he wrote that he spoke in tongues more than them all, that's exactly what he did.
If he said he wished they all spoke in tongues, that was his desire for them.
If he made a distinction between speaking in tongues in the church and outside of it, that is exactly what he said.
If he said that speaking in tongues built a person up, then that is exactly how tongues works.
if he said that speaking in tongues is speaking to God, mysteries in the Spirit, then that is exactly what he meant.
If he at any time meant that tongues was an understandable foreign language, then he would have said it plainly. But he didn't.
So, if he said that no man understood tongues when it was spoken, then that is exactly what he meant.
And if he said that if a person wanted to speak in tongues in church without an interpreter, he was still giving thanks well, then that was the case and nothing else. He also said that if there is no interpreter the person should speak to himself and to God. That looks like personal prayer to me, and if he used the expression, "but in the church" then he supported speaking in tongues away from the church environment.

I was a school teacher and I taught 10 year olds English comprehension. If I had given then 1 Corinthians 14, they would have come to the same conclusion I have.

Yes, but even though Paul was clear, there are some who take a portion out of context and misapply it. Take for instance Romans 7. How many take verses 14-23 and say that is Paul's life experience as a Christian, instead of reading from verse 7 and seeing that it was Paul, actually mankind, UNDER THE LAW, before receiving the SPIRIT (chapter 8).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 5, 2019

DamianWarS said:
you realized we no longer speak english as written in the KJV and it is a dead language, so the very words you cherish contradict you. I also like to keep things simple and reading the 1 Cor 13 text Christ is the simplest and more natural answer; I'm sure the Corinthian church certainly didn't think it was the completion of the canon. It wasn't until I picked up a commentary on the passage in 1 Cor 13 in my 20's that I realise there is controversy but it stuck me as odd as it would seem one of the most simplest answers, rather than some convoluted one pointing to a time never mentioned in scripture that a lot of christians don't even know about. If you're looking for simple read the passage to a child then ask them what they think "that which is perfect" is and see what they say.

You do realize that you did not address the points I made with Scripture involving 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1, right? The only conclusion is that you do not want to admit the similarities and you are using your Bible in the English as an excuse not to trust what God's Word says plainly. Let me ask you. Is there any verses in the English that you believe? How about before you learned of Greek? Anyways, whenever you want to address the Bible in the language that we are talking in now, please let me know.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 5, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
@Jason0047 I don't see that you answered my post #191, so you might have overlooked it as you answered a later post and may have missed the first one.

I have been kind of busy lately. Also, I am replying to lots of people here in the thread because there appears to be many in favor of the Continuationist view here.

Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

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