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Presbyterian Continuist

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What about cold, non compassionate, religious people, who dont die?
The obvious answer to that is that they keep on being non compassionate and religious, until God softens their hearts toward Him and towards sick people.
 
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W2L

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The obvious answer to that is that they keep on being non compassionate and religious, until God softens their hearts toward Him and towards sick people.
You seemed to say that christians who get sick are being punished by God for not discerning the body, and for being cold, non compassionate, religious people.
 
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You seemed to say that christians who get sick are being punished by God for not discerning the body, and for being cold, non compassionate, religious people.
I never said that God is punishing people at all. It is the church that is punishing sick people by blocking them from the grace and power of Jesus through misquoting of Scripture and cessationist doctrine. It is cessationists who are punishing sick people, not God.
 
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Why then did you mention people getting sick because they dont discern the Lords body?
It is because of what teaching they are receiving through their cessationist religious leaders and preachers. On another thread talk was about false prophets. I think that cessationist preachers are false teachers and come under the category of false prophets teaching what they have dreamed up themselves. Jesus said that along with the grievous wolves coming into the church, false teachers teaching perverse doctrines will rise up from within the church drawing away disciples to themselves. Fits the actions of cessationists perfectly!
 
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1stcenturylady

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It is because of what teaching they are receiving through their cessationist religious leaders and preachers. On another thread talk was about false prophets. I think that cessationist preachers are false teachers and come under the category of false prophets teaching what they have dreamed up themselves. Jesus said that along with the grievous wolves coming into the church, false teachers teaching perverse doctrines will rise up from within the church drawing away disciples to themselves. Fits the actions of cessationists perfectly!

I remember starting to read a book by one of the most prolific cessationists, and couldn't get past the second page. It was like demons were flying off the pages!
 
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W2L

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It is because of what teaching they are receiving through their cessationist religious leaders and preachers. On another thread talk was about false prophets. I think that cessationist preachers are false teachers and come under the category of false prophets teaching what they have dreamed up themselves. Jesus said that along with the grievous wolves coming into the church, false teachers teaching perverse doctrines will rise up from within the church drawing away disciples to themselves. Fits the actions of cessationists perfectly!
Oh, so only cessationists are getting sick from not discerning the body, i see.
 
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Deborah D

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I remember starting to read a book by one of the most prolific cessationists, and couldn't get past the second page. It was like demons were flying off the pages!

That's because cessationism is straight from the pit of hell! How the devil has trumped in convincing Christians that these gifts have ceased, esp. in this day and age when the church needs them the most.
 
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Oh, so only cessationists are getting sick from not discerning the body, i see.
It's the perverse teaching that is blocking people from the possibility of being healed.
 
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W2L

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It's the perverse teaching that is blocking people from the possibility of being healed.
Thats your assertion and has nothing to do with failing to discern the body and getting sick as a result. You did not discern the truth of that scripture. Also, all Christians who get sick are praying to be healed. No one is keeping them from hoping and praying for healing. You are wrong.
 
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Thats your assertion and has nothing to do with failing to discern thew body and getting sick as a result. You did not discern the truth of that scripture. Also, all Christians who get sick are praying to be healed. No one is keeping them from hoping and praying for healing. You are wrong.
Okay!
 
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Although I agree with your post, I do take issue with your last sentence. Paul did not say that we should not edify ourselves. He said that speaking in tongues edifies oneself and if a person wants to do just that, then he should speak to himself and to God, but not to the whole church unless there is a interpreter who can edify the church.

To say that a person should not edify themselves, is to deny Jude when he said that we should build ourselves up in the most holy faith, praying in the Spirit. (I'm not using this reference to support tongues, so don't start another debate on this one!). So, you can't say that we should not edify ourselves and then see Jude saying that we should.

No, edifying ourselves is for our private prayer before God alone, and edifying the church is for the public meeting. There is a place for both.

No. Paul says he will pray with the understanding also.

14 "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." (1 Corinthians 14:14-15).

So Paul is not encouraging us to pray in some kind of secret prayer language.

Praying in the Spirit does not refer to the words we are saying. Rather, it refers to how we are praying. Praying in the Spirit is praying according to the Spirit’s leading. It is praying for things the Spirit leads us to pray for. Romans 8:26 tells us, “In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express."


Source used:
What is praying in the Spirit?
 
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No. Paul says he will pray with the understanding also.

14 "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." (1 Corinthians 14:14-15).

So Paul is not encouraging us to pray in some kind of secret prayer language.

Praying in the Spirit does not refer to the words we are saying. Rather, it refers to how we are praying. Praying in the Spirit is praying according to the Spirit’s leading. It is praying for things the Spirit leads us to pray for. Romans 8:26 tells us, “In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express."


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What is praying in the Spirit?
I was not intending to enter into this debate. I was talking about edifying oneself. We do that through praying with the Spirit and with the understanding as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14.

To use the quote about the Spirit interceding through us with groanings that cannot be uttered is a misquote if you are using it to say that it replaces or is equivalent to tongues. You need to look at the context in which this verse is placed. It has nothing to do with tongues.

Also, in saying that "Paul is not encouraging us to pray in some secret tongues", is ignoring his statement, "I would that you all spoke with tongues." He also said, "I speak with tongues more than you all, but in the church..."

So, Paul did pray in tongues when he was alone with God, but, when he fellowshipped in the church, he stopped praying in tongues, and prophesied and taught in the language the folk understood.

It is risky to make comments while ignoring particular statements that Paul has made concerning tongues. It's like being an "amber gambler" at an intersection hoping that there are no cars coming the other way.

You are saying that Paul did not encourage folk to pray in tongues, and yet Paul says exactly the opposite, as well as putting an interpretation on a Scripture about groaning that is not supported by the context.
 
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1stcenturylady

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No. Paul says he will pray with the understanding also.

14 "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." (1 Corinthians 14:14-15).

So Paul is not encouraging us to pray in some kind of secret prayer language.

Praying in the Spirit does not refer to the words we are saying. Rather, it refers to how we are praying. Praying in the Spirit is praying according to the Spirit’s leading. It is praying for things the Spirit leads us to pray for. Romans 8:26 tells us, “In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express."


Source used:
What is praying in the Spirit?

Your interpretation of praying in the Spirit is not in line with the context of this chapter. It is on the difference between the sign of tongues and the gift of tongues with interpretation which is also prophecy.

When Paul prays, he will pray in tongues, and other times he will pray with the understanding in his own language. Another interpretation is that he will pray in tongues, and he will pray the interpretation, seeing as the chapter is also on the importance of the gift of interpretation of tongues.

CONTEXT!
 
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I was not intending to enter into this debate. I was talking about edifying oneself. We do that through praying with the Spirit and with the understanding as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14.

To use the quote about the Spirit interceding through us with groanings that cannot be uttered is a misquote if you are using it to say that it replaces or is equivalent to tongues. You need to look at the context in which this verse is placed. It has nothing to do with tongues.

Also, in saying that "Paul is not encouraging us to pray in some secret tongues", is ignoring his statement, "I would that you all spoke with tongues." He also said, "I speak with tongues more than you all, but in the church..."

So, Paul did pray in tongues when he was alone with God, but, when he fellowshipped in the church, he stopped praying in tongues, and prophesied and taught in the language the folk understood.

It is risky to make comments while ignoring particular statements that Paul has made concerning tongues. It's like being an "amber gambler" at an intersection hoping that there are no cars coming the other way.

You are saying that Paul did not encourage folk to pray in tongues, and yet Paul says exactly the opposite, as well as putting an interpretation on a Scripture about groaning that is not supported by the context.

Again, verse 15 refutes your line of thinking here. Paul says he will pray with the understanding also. This rules out speaking in tongues to himself outside of church. This is not a view supported by you because think you can speak tongues without the understanding outside of church. Verse 18, you assume Paul is speaking more than others outside the church, but it doesn’t say that he is speaking outside the church. Verse 19 is not a change of environment or situation but an emphasis on his point not to speak in tongues without an interpreter.

You have to understand that Paul is correcting the Corinthians. His emphasis of the words “But in the church...” is emphasis on the proper conduct of the saints that they are not partaking in.

It would be like a sergeant correcting a new army recruit in his misconduct of behavior by telling him, “Now look son, I pull pranks more than anyone, but in the army, a wet behind the ears rabbit like you cannot pull pranks on his own unit!”

The context is correction and it is not a beginners guide to speaking in tongues.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Again, verse 15 refutes your line of thinking here. Paul says he will pray with the understanding also. This rules out speaking in tongues to himself outside of church. This is not a view supported by you because think you can speak tongues without the understanding outside of church. Verse 18, you assume Paul is speaking more than others outside the church, but it doesn’t say that he is speaking outside the church. Verse 19 is not a change of environment or situation but an emphasis on his point not to speak in tongues without an interpreter.

You have to understand that Paul is correcting the Corinthians. His emphasis of the words “But in the church...” is emphasis on the proper conduct of the saints that they are not partaking in.

It would be like a sergeant correcting a new army recruit in his misconduct of behavior by telling him, “Now look son, I pull pranks more than anyone, but in the army, a wet behind the ears rabbit like you cannot pull pranks on his own unit!”

You are so wrong. Paul isn't against praying in tongues privately at all. I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. It is the difference between private prayer, and inside church.
 
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You are so wrong. Paul isn't against praying in tongues privately at all. I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. It is the difference between private prayer, and inside church.

He says pray with the understanding. That is not praying in tongues. Praying in tongues would be praying without the understanding and yet Paul does not say that.
 
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1stcenturylady

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He says pray with the understanding. That is not praying in tongues. Praying in tongues would be praying without the understanding and yet Paul does not say that.

What about the word "and" do you not understand? Praying in the Spirit is praying in tongues. He doesn't mean at the same time, but in general. He will not just pray in tongues, or just pray with the understanding, but will utilize both.

Good night. This conversation is getting embarrassing. I am embarrassed for you.
 
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