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1stcenturylady

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Your missing the point. I am saying that if I wanted to HELP someone by my book, I would give them a screen capture of the part that could help them. Also, mentioning the book here means you are promoting your book. So to say you are not promoting your book is not exactly true. If you were not promoting your book, you would not mention the book at all.

I was just proving that I did write a book. If you want to read it fine; if not, fine. What verses are you talking about anyway. You've quoted a lot.
 
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I'm not promoting my book. I don't care if you read it or not.

Again, your book more than likely does not have the answer I seek (Which is a word for word commentary from the Continuationist view on 1 Corinthians 14:14-17, and 1 Corinthians 14:19).
 
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I was just proving that I did write a book. If you want to read it fine; if not, fine. What verses are you talking about anyway. You've quoted a lot.

I didn't ask you to prove it, though.
 
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devin553344

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Cessationism:
Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

(Note: This does not mean miracles have ceased, but it means that the gift of healing or the gift of miraculous gifts and prophecy as seen in the early church has ceased).

Important Note:
Please keep in mind that I am not claiming that all brothers and sisters are automatically liars if they believe they have done genuine miracles or they have seen what they believe to be genuine miracles. I am always open to the possibility that God may operate miraculously today on rare occasions. I am also aware that I am human and fallible and I would not want to speak against the true working of the power of God today. So unless I see or witness a group's miracles and beliefs, I am not claiming all who claim to be working by God's power today are not genuine. In fact, there is a brother I feel close with who believes that he operates by God's power and miracles. I cannot honestly say how God is operating in His life. But yet I know the Bible tells me that miraculous gifts have ceased, though. Perhaps for us, it is a matter of perspective. In either case, here is my Biblical case for Cessationism (The ceasing of miraculous gifts given to the apostles).​

  1. Tongues and prophecy have ceased ~ 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says, “...whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;” and verse 8 says, “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” The question is when do tongues and prophecies cease? Verse 10 says “ when that which is perfect is come”; And verse 11 says, “when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Are we going to be children (and not men) upon this Earth until Christ takes us home?

  2. Both 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 describe something that is “perfect” and “looking into a mirror.” In 1 Corinthians 13, that which is “perfect” (neuter in the Greek) fits the reference to the “Perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25) (Which would also be neuter). The law of the Lord is “perfect” (Psalms 19:7). All Scripture (the Bible) is profitable so that the man of God may be “perfect” unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). James 1:23 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in. Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance. Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance. Therefore, Glass / Mirror = Perfect = The Word of God. 1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does. 2 Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us. It says: "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (Also see verse 15 in the same chapter). As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.

  3. Tongues were for a sign that the Jews looked for. 1 Corinthians 1:22 says, “For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:” But Jesus says, “ An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;” (Matthew 12:39). Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:22). "In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that (all the tongues) will they (Jews) not hear me (warning ignored), saith the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:21. Tongues here clearly are a warning to the Jews that they ignore. 1 Corinthians 14:21 is quoting from Deuteronomy 28:49 where God warns of judgment coming from "a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand."

  4. The three greatest prophets and miracle workers in the Bible are Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. We see that the miracles that they performed were a way to authenticate them as a messenger from GOD and the Word of God that they provided (that would be immortalized into Scripture). We notice that after each of these prophets, there was a time of silence where no miracles were done. Just like with the prophets Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, miracles authenticated the apostles' message as from God. "And they (apostles) went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs (tongues, prophecies, healing, etc.) following. Amen." Mark 16:20. Today the need for tongues and miracles has ceased. God has authenticated the apostles and the New Testament that they penned. This proves the temporary nature of tongues and miracles.

  5. We can see that after the book of Acts, the gifts no longer operated in Paul’s life like they once had. The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren’t mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul’s life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn’t heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts (See this article here for the full explanation).

  6. Notice that both 1 Corinthians 13:11 and Ephesians 4:13 equate attaining fullness of knowledge with becoming a perfect or mature man. What have childish things got to do with temporary gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge? Answer: Paul is comparing a human advancing from childhood to adulthood, with the church passing from infancy in the first century marked by prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts to maturity marked by believers depending on the Bible, faith, hope and charity from 96 AD to the rapture. By 96 AD the childish gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge had ceased, and church manhood had been reached. A man comes to fulness of the knowledge of Christ by Scripture; For all Scripture is profitable for doctrine that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). (Note: Back in the early church, the gift of knowledge was the giving of special revelation of either history, and or doctrine that the apostles did not have on their own; In the OT, Moses received the gift of knowledge to pen the details of history in the Torah; In the NT, Certain men of God (in the early church) had received new knowledge from God to teach new doctrine, like Peter, James, John, and Paul etc. so as to write inspired Scripture).

  7. While God can heal people directly Himself today, the gift of miracles is not given to any one believer that we know today. No Charismatic can always heal. Yet, the Bible says that they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts 5:12-16. "By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people.....they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets.....and they were healed every one". (Acts 5:16).

  8. New revelation (prophecy) or new words from God are not to be added (Revelation 22:18-19). If a person were to add to God’s Word, the plagues that are within the book known as the Bible (not the plagues in Revelation) would be added to them. We have occurrences of this actually happening. See these two links here: Bible Correctors lose Voice Bible Corrector Loses Voice on Ankerberg Show

  9. The Apostles and Prophets were merely the foundation built upon the foundation of Jesus. “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;” (Ephesians 2:18-20). We are said to have access by one Spirit unto the Father that is build upon the “foundation” of the apostles and prophets. Being an apostle is a gift (See 1 Corinthians 12:28-31). The qualifications of being an apostle was to have seen the risen Lord Jesus Christ (See Acts of the Apostles 1:22-26). Paul said he met the qualifications as being an apostle because he had seen the risen Lord. 1 Corinthians 9:1 “…Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” Paul called himself the “last prophet.” (1 Corinthians 15:8-9). Paul says that God has set forth the apostles last (1 Corinthians 14:9).

10. The context of I Corinthians is rebuking 13 errors, such as tongues, and it is not recommending tongues. The Corinthian church was filled with problems that Paul corrects in this book, such as:​

(a) They were following their favourite human leaders causing divisions. 1:11-14
(b) " " favouring human wisdom. 1:18-2:13
(c) " " carnal, living for self, not controlled by the Spirit. 2:14-3:7
(d) " " forgetting the future Judgment Seat of Christ. 3:8-23
(e) " " proud, thinking of themselves more highly than they ought. 4:1-21
(f) " " failing to discipline, by tolerating a fornicator. 5:1-13
(g) " " taking fellow believers to court. 6:1-20
(h) " " confused about marriage. 7:1-40
(i) " " confused about liberty thinking it meant licence to do as they please, even stumbling others. 8 ,9 ,10.
(j) " " confused about clothing, long hair on men and Lord's Supper. 11
(k). " " confused about spiritual gifts, especially tongues. 12-14
(l) " " confused about the resurrection. 15
(m) " " confused about the collection. 16
As we can see the Corinthian church was deep in error and false doctrine. It was the only church that emphasized tongues as today's Charismatics do. Charismatics therefore place themselves in very bad company. Charismatics fail to understand that Paul is not endorsing tongues, but is rebuking the wrong use of tongues and is strongly regulating tongues contrary to today's Charismatics. Today's emphasis on assemblies with more than on person speaking at the same time is plainly wrong (1 Corinthians 14:27). Paul feared that even one person speaking in tongues without proper interpretation would give the appearance of barbarians or insanity (1 Corinthians 14:11) (1 Corinthians 14:23). What would he think of today's mass hysteria? Today's spontaneous, wild use outside of Scriptural limits is wrong. The gift of prophecy, far superior in every way to tongues, was under the control of the prophets For it is written: “Remember that people who prophesy are in control of their spirit and can take turns.” (1 Corinthians 14:32) (NLT). So Paul's repeated instructions about the right use of the gift of tongues required it to be a very controllable gift, not a force or power controlling the user. Paul valued 5 words with the understanding rather than 10,000 words without the understanding (i.e. tongues)! So Preaching is far superior in God's purpose and for the churches' profit (1 Corinthians 14:19) (1 Corinthians 14:39). The gifts had a purpose and a place in time. They were to authenticate the church and the New Covenant. But seeing that which is "perfect" has come (the Bible), we do not need any more revelation. The Bible has all the revelation or instruction that we need today.​

I've been healed once and also have healed someone with a 3 day fast/prayer which was proven with x-rays. Also I was mentally healed after another 3 day fast. I've seen other miracles as well as received prophecy from spirits that came true, etc. It's perhaps desirable for some reason to want to believe that these things simply don't happen anymore, but I'm not sure why it's desirable to want to believe that :)
 
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1stcenturylady

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Again, your book more than likely does not have the answer I seek (Which is a word for word commentary from the Continuationist view on 1 Corinthians 14:14-17, and 1 Corinthians 14:19).

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

He is speaking in the Spirit, and he, himself, does not know what he is praying, let alone anyone who hears him.

1 Corinthians 14:14-17, and 1 Corinthians 14:19?

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.


Paul speaks in tongues more than all of them, but only to God. To people it would not benefit them, unless he also used the gift of interpretation of tongues. The tongues are God's words, spoken by the Spirit. It is His perfect will. If one doesn't understand what he is saying, it only builds up his spirit, but not his mind, and certainly no one around him. So in church he only prophesies, for the benefit of the church. And if someone does receive a message in tongues, it should only be a few and one must be able to interpret for the benefit of all.

That is no way means one cannot pray in the Spirit. Or praise God in the Spirit as 120 did on the Day of Pentecost.

There are two manifestations of speaking in tongues.

The first is the sign to pray in the Spirit, alone. This ability is given to all who believe. Mark 16:16-18. The person does not know what he is saying, but the Spirit know.

The second is the gift of diverse kinds of tongues. This is NOT given to all, but only a few in a congregation. Someone else, of themselves, must also display the gift of interpretation of tongues if it is to be used in church. If no interpreter of tongues is present, they must remain quiet and speak to themselves. This is why at the end of 1 Corinthians 12 it says "do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?" The answer is no. But even if no one in a congregation has one or both of these gifts, all can pray in the Spirit.
 
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I've been healed once and also have healed someone with a 3 day fast/prayer which was proven with x-rays. Also I was mentally healed after another 3 day fast. I've seen other miracles as well as received prophecy from spirits that came true, etc. It's perhaps desirable for some reason to want to believe that these things simply don't happen anymore, but I'm not sure why it's desirable to want to believe that :)

We are not talking about praying and fasting to heal others. We are talking about the early church gifts whereby a believer was able to speak to a person and they were instantly healed, or their clothes could heal others, or their shadow could heal others, etc.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Again, your book more than likely does not have the answer I seek (Which is a word for word commentary from the Continuationist view on 1 Corinthians 14:14-17, and 1 Corinthians 14:19).

First, to know what you believe, isn't it that you believe Paul is saying not to speak in tongues ever?
 
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devin553344

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We are not talking about praying and fasting to heal others. We are talking about the early church gifts whereby a believer was able to speak to a person and they were instantly healed, or their clothes could heal others, or their shadow could heal others, etc.

Yeah I read the scriptural references that were used to suggest that these things don't happen anymore, and they seemed very vague to me. Did I get that wrong?
 
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I've been healed once and also have healed someone with a 3 day fast/prayer which was proven with x-rays. Also I was mentally healed after another 3 day fast. I've seen other miracles as well as received prophecy from spirits that came true, etc. It's perhaps desirable for some reason to want to believe that these things simply don't happen anymore, but I'm not sure why it's desirable to want to believe that :)
Its not desirable, it doesnt tickle the ears.
 
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Foxfyre

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Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 1Cor13:8-10

It appears knowledge must also have passed away

That is how I see it. I do believe that spiritual gifts are just as active today as they have ever been. It is only our persistent logic/reason/indoctrination/unwillingness to believe that hinders or stifles them these days. It hinders or stifles them in a way that probably didn't exist much in Jesus of Nazareth's or the Apostle Paul's time on Earth.

Using ICor3:8-10 as evidence that tongues, prophecies etc. are no more simply cannot omit 'knowledge' from that passage and be intellectually honest. And since I doubt that any of us think we possess no knowledge, we have to logically allow that everything else is still with us too.

Paul's counsel in his letters to the churches I saw as a) admonishing those who felt pride and boastfulness in their gifts as somehow making them superior over those who didn't manifest the same gifts and b) acknowledging that when we meet Jesus face to face and know all truth, tongues, prophecy etc. will no longer exist because there would be no point. A reasonable conclusion.
 
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1 Corinthians 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

You have to take the whole chapter into account when you read this verse. Otherwise, you are taking this verse out of context. Paul here is criticizing the Corinthians for speaking in tongues without an interpreter.

Let all things be done unto edifying." (1 Corinthians 14:26).

Here are the commands for speaking in tongues:
  1. Let him that speaks in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful (1 Corinthians 14:13-14).
  2. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). The spirits of the prophets [the speakers in tongues] are subject to the prophets [the interpreters]. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. (1 Corinthians 14:32-33).
Prophesying is done for the purpose of edifying the church.

"But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification," (1 Corinthians 14:3).

But he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks to edify themselves.

"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church." (1 Corinthians 14:4).

"Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church." (1 Corinthians 14:12).

Paul is telling us to seek to edify the church and not to edify ourselves.
 
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That is how I see it. I do believe that spiritual gifts are just as active today as they have ever been. It is only our persistent logic/reason/indoctrination/unwillingness to believe that hinders or stifles them these days. It hinders or stifles them in a way that probably didn't exist much in Jesus of Nazareth's or the Apostle Paul's time on Earth.

Using ICor3:8-10 as evidence that tongues, prophecies etc. are no more simply cannot omit 'knowledge' from that passage and be intellectually honest. And since I doubt that any of us think we possess no knowledge, we have to logically allow that everything else is still with us too.

Paul's counsel in his letters to the churches I saw as a) admonishing those who felt pride and boastfulness in their gifts as somehow making them superior over those who didn't manifest the same gifts and b) acknowledging that when we meet Jesus face to face and know all truth, tongues, prophecy etc. will no longer exist because there would be no point. A reasonable conclusion.

Knowledge in 1 Corinthians 13 is in reference to the "Gift of Knowledge" that certain early believers had. This would be the knowledge given by the Spirit to speak as Stephen did before he was martyred or to write Holy Scripture like Peter, and Paul, etc.

The only spiritual knowledge we are given is the Bible. No more knowledge can be added to the Bible during the time of our faith under the New Covenant while we are alive here on this Earth. This gift of knowledge has ceased with the close of Revelation (Whereby we now have a completed Bible). New knowledge from God has now ceased because we have all the knowledge that we can handle with a completed Bible in our hands today.
 
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devin553344

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That is how I see it. I do believe that spiritual gifts are just as active today as they have ever been. It is only our persistent logic/reason/indoctrination/unwillingness to believe that hinders or stifles them these days. It hinders or stifles them in a way that probably didn't exist much in Jesus of Nazareth's or the Apostle Paul's time on Earth.

Using ICor3:8-10 as evidence that tongues, prophecies etc. are no more simply cannot omit 'knowledge' from that passage and be intellectually honest. And since I doubt that any of us think we possess no knowledge, we have to logically allow that everything else is still with us too.

Paul's counsel in his letters to the churches I saw as a) admonishing those who felt pride and boastfulness in their gifts as somehow making them superior over those who didn't manifest the same gifts and b) acknowledging that when we meet Jesus face to face and know all truth, tongues, prophecy etc. will no longer exist because there would be no point. A reasonable conclusion.

That's what I saw when reading the references, that Jesus would end it upon ending the earth or something to that effect.
 
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That's what I saw when reading the references, that Jesus would end it upon ending the earth.

I used to think that way, but Scripture has shown me otherwise. It's not an easy thing to accept. Many like the idea of chasing after the miracles instead of the heart of the Miracle Maker. Jesus criticized those he fed with the miracle of the many loaves and the fishes and He pointed them to seek after Himself (Who is the Bread of Life). They wanted more physical food (Which would be Him doing more miracles for them to be amazed by them).

Jesus told Thomas that blessed are they who do not see and yet believe. I believe Jesus is prophetically speaking of a time when miracles would cease and men of God would come to trust in Him by faith without seeing any kind of miracles.
 
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devin553344

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Knowledge in 1 Corinthians 13 is in reference to the "Gift of Knowledge" that certain early believers had. This would be the knowledge given by the Spirit to speak as Stephen did before he was martyred or to write Holy Scripture like Peter, and Paul, etc.

The only spiritual knowledge we are given is the Bible. No more knowledge can be added to the Bible during the time of our faith under the New Covenant while we are alive here on this Earth. This gift of knowledge has ceased with the close of Revelation (Whereby we now have a completed Bible). New knowledge from God has now ceased because we have all the knowledge that we can handle with a completed Bible in our hands today.

That's simply not true, you can look around and see the advances in science and medicine, and it's simply obvious that is a gift of Knowledge from God :) God has blessed the earth.
 
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I used to think that way, but Scripture has shown me otherwise. It's not an easy thing to accept. Many like the idea of chasing after the miracles instead of the heart of the Miracle Maker. Jesus criticized those he fed with the miracle of the many loaves and the fishes and He pointed them to seek after Himself (Who is the Bread of Life). They wanted more bread (Which would be Him doing more miracles).

Jesus told Thomas that blessed are they who do not see and yet believe. I believe Jesus is prophetically speaking of a time when miracles would cease and men of God would come to trust in Him by faith without seeing any kind of miracles.

You're making the assumption that during the miracles I witnessed that I was seeking after them, in fact they were more of a burden to fast for 3 days. I would have rather have ate. Simply put, the gift of miracles I have witnessed in my life:) Which is why I testified of it. Of course I didn't perform the miracles, but God acted when I sought him in prayer and fasting. And he glorified himself to me and others. Is there something wrong with God glorifying himself to people thru these things in your mind?
 
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