Question about eternal damnation

Pneuma3 · Jan 3, 2019

Butch5 said:
No, the Scriptures don't disagree with me. It's your interpretation that disagrees with me. You see, the Scriptures can't speak. They can't say, 'this is what I mean.' We have to read them and then interpret them. We interpret them based on our presuppositions. If our presuppositions are wrong then it's likely that our interpretation is going to be wrong also.

You said there is no spiritual death.
The law is spiritual and a ministration of death
Thus we have a spiritual death.

You might not like it but one plus one = two every time.

Butch5 said:
You'e conflating two things here. Here you speak of the Law and that Paul said that death is associated with the Law. However, in your post about "Two Deaths" the law you wrote of is that of Adam disobeying God's command not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. They are two different laws. Paul is writing about the Law of Moses. But, the law you're speaking of is also associated with physical death, not spiritual. God told Adam, in the day he ate of the tree he would die

No I am not conflating two things, you are mixing them up.
The death Adam brought into play was the law or ministration of death not a physical death.
The second law of thermodynamics had long been in play before Adam ate from the tree and this can easily be seen in what God said to Adam " dying thus shalt die"
Adam did not die physically in the day he ate

Butch5 said:
When Adam ate from it God told him he would return to the dust, he said, 'for dust you are and to dust you shall return'. That's physical death.

Butch5 said:
That's physical death. Moses recorded the creation of man and said that God created man from the dust of the earth and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. Man is dust and the death he suffers is returning to dust, that's physical, physical death.

No it is not a physical death. Adam was created from the dust OUTSIDE of the garden and then placed into the garden, thus when Adam ate he was REMOVED from the garden to RETURN to the dust from whence he was taken.

That speaks of a spiritual death, not a physical one.

Butch5 said:
Yes, I did make a distinction between humans and demons and yes they both suffer the same death. That death is loss of life. The difference is what they consist of. Man is dust, the demons are not. Even though they may be different life forms they both suffer the same death, loss of life. The reason for mentioning it was that someone might claim that spiritual death is the death of a demon. That's why I said you won'd find anything about humans suffering a spiritual death. It's not in Scripture anywhere, it's just not there.

Well if there is no such thing as a spiritual death and the second must be like the first how is it satan and demons die?

Ronald · Jan 3, 2019

ClementofA said:
The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

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Your knowledge, perception and discernment is flawed!
Didn't anyone ever teach you the importance of context? You can't just pull a scripture out and form a whole theology out of it.
Now, this particular passage and the WHOLE BOOK of MICAH pertains to ISRAEL. God has a covenant with them specifically and according to Romans 11, He is not done with them and will keep his promises.

The gentile world was given the Gospel and was not to be expected to live under the Old Testament LAW. We live under Grace. So when Jesus came along, things changed. Besides all that, in that verse, "indignation" is used instead of wrath. It is a milder anger, a displeasure, but a finale fury of end times judgment which involves destruction. That word is used in the KJ, NKJ, ESV, ASB, NASB, RSV, WEB, YLT and many others. Why, because it pertains to Israel, His chosen nation.

Chew on this one for awhile:
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
1 Thes. 5-9 NASB

Again, you fail to understand the doctrines of faith, as if person doesn't not need faith to get into heaven.
You fail to understand death, destruction, salvation. If everyone gets saved without having to believe, you must ignore the numerous scriptures that exhort faith in Jesus as a requirement. You obviously ignore all the scriptures I presented as if they are non-existent.

Why do you think that for almost 2,000 years the gospel is spread with a sense of urgency, to as many people, nations? The Good News is transforming and God wants us to hear while we are alive so that we can be transformed into the likeness of Jesus.

Where in all the Bible do you get that there is somehow a second chance after one dies to be then drawn to the Father through Jesus, by way of the Word and become transformed in Hades or the lake of fire???

Ronald · Jan 3, 2019

FineLinen said:
Dear Ronald: I refuse to allow your youth and inexperience to stand regarding your comments of Hannah Hurnard.

Hannah Hurnard: a brief biography

Ronald: Listen to the vibration of the Heavenly Tongs, it will transform your life!

Andrew Jukes=

Writings

Andrew Jukes

This women had a rebellious attitude from the start, rejecting the Quaker ways, the Bible, etc. Sure God took her stutter away, but that does not mean that her understanding and interpretations were sound.

Here is an example of her confusion:
"Even later in life, Hannah appears to have gone past scripture by embracing reincarnation and many other new age ideas."
Did you fail to read that? The Bible does not teach reincarnation. Jesus said, there is one life, one death and then the judgment!
Besides all that, I will not be taught by a women, the spiritual concepts and doctrines of God. I went to a Four Square Church where they allowed female pastors and through the years I realized it did not conform to scripture, it did not work. A woman can teach children and boys to a certain age and young women as well. But then they need to advance to an ordained male pastor who is filled with the spirit. Don't get me wrong, women are filled with the spirit and have spiritual gifts, but are not to teach a boy to be a man, nor are they to teach the Bible in authority over men.
"A women should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing - if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." 1 Timothy 11-15

But of course many distort or ignore this today - not me. Hannah was deceived and did not have any qualification to teach ANYONE as far as I'm concerned!

Ronald · Jan 3, 2019

ClementofA said:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Justification is made available to ALL MEN THROUGH CHRIST IN THIS LIFE!
We are justified by faith!
You can't acquire faith in Hades. God gives MANY the gift of faith in this life as is evident with 2.42 billion souls.
We must believe in Christ, ask for and receive this gift of eternal life while we are living!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are called, drawn to the Father, by the WORD! Jesus is the WORD. Faith comes by the WORD!
We read and/or hear the Word of God and it transforms us. We are baptized into the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We ask for the Holy Spirit who then takes up residence in our spiritual temple within our living soul We are born again while we are alive. Do you not know that you are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. They aren't spreading the gospel in Hades or passing out Bibles and giving sermons down there!
We were baptized into His death and raised with him. This does not happen after one dies!

***If you have not been baptized by the Holy Spirit, you have not be born again and therefore will not discern scripture spiritually.

Butch5 · Jan 3, 2019

Pneuma3 said:
You said there is no spiritual death.
The law is spiritual and a ministration of death
Thus we have a spiritual death.

You might not like it but one plus one = two every time.

Did you read what I posted? Firstly, we need to have a definition the word spiritual. Until I know how you define that word it's going to be difficult to have a discussion. Secondly, as I said, one interprets the text based on one's presuppositions. Just because you interpret the text a certain way doesn't mean it's correct. If your interpretation is wrong it's likely that you statement is wrong. I submit that your interpretation is wrong.

What does it mean that the Law is spiritual?
What does it mean that the Law is a ministration of death?

No I am not conflating two things, you are mixing them up.
The death Adam brought into play was the law or ministration of death not a physical death.
The second law of thermodynamics had long been in play before Adam ate from the tree and this can easily be seen in what God said to Adam " dying thus shalt die"
Adam did not die physically in the day he ate

I'm not mixing them up. Just read Paul's writings. The Law he spoke of is the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses didn't exist when Adam was in the garden.

I'm not sure what you mean by this statement, "The death Adam brought into play was the law or ministration of death not a physical death."

Above you said the Law is a ministration of death. In the sentence I posted here you said the Law is death. Is it the ministration of death or is it death?

Also you said it's not physical death, however, that is simply an arbitrary statement. I could claim the opposite. It's also based on the idea that there is another form of death other than physical death which at this point you haven't proven. Thus the statement is the fallacy of Begging the Question aka Circular Reasoning.

Actually, Adam did die in the day he ate of the tree. It was a prophetic that God was speaking of. David said,
4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. (Ps. 90:4 KJV)

Peter reiterated,
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Pet. 3:8 KJV)

Adam lived 930 years, just short of a 1000 year day.

This is also the Jewish and early Christian understanding of the passage. This passage is from the book of Jubilees

"29. And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth year thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he was the first to be buried in the earth. 30. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye will die."For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it."

Here is a quote from Irenaeus, a disciple of the apostle John.

And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since “a day of the Lord is as a thousand years,” he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin. Whether, therefore, with respect to disobedience, which is death; whether [we consider] that, on account of that, they were delivered over to death, and made debtors to it; whether with respect to [the fact that on] one and the same day on which they ate they also died (for it is one day of the creation); whether [we regard this point], that, with respect to this cycle of days, they died on the day in which they did also eat, that is, the day of the preparation, which is termed “the pure supper,” that is, the sixth day of the feast, which the Lord also exhibited when He suffered on that day; or whether [we reflect] that he (Adam) did not overstep the thousand years, but died within their limit, — it follows that, in regard to all these significations, God is indeed true. For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: “For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him.”[
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

No it is not a physical death. Adam was created from the dust OUTSIDE of the garden and then placed into the garden, thus when Adam ate he was REMOVED from the garden to RETURN to the dust from whence he was taken.

That speaks of a spiritual death, not a physical one.

Except that the dust is a substance, not a location. God said to Adam, 'dust you are'. Adam is dust. It's not that dust is some location outside of the garden. So, whether Adam was in the garden or outside of it, he was still dust.

Again, your argument assumes that spiritual death exists which hasn't been proven.

Well if there is no such thing as a spiritual death and the second must be like the first how is it satan and demons die?

Loss of life.

FineLinen · Jan 3, 2019

Ronald said:
This women had a rebellious attitude from the start, rejecting the Quaker ways, the Bible, etc. Sure God took her stutter away, but that does not mean that her understanding and interpretations were sound.

But of course many distort or ignore this today - not me. Hannah was deceived and did not have any qualification to teach ANYONE as far as I'm concerned!

Dear Ronald: As far as you are concerned sheep are in compliance to the shepherds bidding and do not require the sheep dog of the shepherd to keep them in line with his design.

As far as you are concerned, evil is pushed into some corner of the Master's Domain. The polus made sinners in Adam1 left in that deplorable condition never to be "made righteous" in the Last.

As far as you are concerned evil triumphs, thumbing its nose before the Righteous One and His "all the more."

Ronald, stand in this new year in the Presence of the God of Heavenly Tongs. Let Him tune you!

"The life of grace is not an effort on our part to achieve a goal we set ourselves. It is a continually renewed attempt simply to believe that someone else has done all the achieving that is needed and to live in relationship with that person, whether we achieve or not. If that doesn’t seem like much to you, you’re right: it isn’t. And, as a matter of fact, the life of grace is even less than that. It’s not even our life at all, but the life of that Someone Else rising like a tide in the ruins of our death.” -Robert Farrar Capon-

FineLinen · Jan 3, 2019

Dear Ronald: there are two words you must learn in relation to the God of glory.

#1 limited.

"You have limited the Holy One of Israel."

#2 Exceeding.

..."exceedingly abundantly above all we can ask or even think"

"My dear friend, clear your mind of can’t.” -Samuel Johnson-

Pneuma3 · Jan 3, 2019

Butch5 said:
Did you read what I posted? Firstly, we need to have a definition the word spiritual. Until I know how you define that word it's going to be difficult to have a discussion. Secondly, as I said, one interprets the text based on one's presuppositions. Just because you interpret the text a certain way doesn't mean it's correct. If your interpretation is wrong it's likely that you statement is wrong. I submit that your interpretation is wrong.

That goes both ways.

Butch5 said:
What does it mean that the Law is spiritual?
What does it mean that the Law is a ministration of death?

The law is a ministration of death to our old man nature not the death of man themselves.

Butch5 said:
I'm not mixing them up. Just read Paul's writings. The Law he spoke of is the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses didn't exist when Adam was in the garden.

Nonsense the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law and the law is spiritual. Where else do you read the commandments "thou shalt not"? and if you have broken the law in one point you are guilty of all.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

When did sin and death enter into the world?
and what is the strength of sin?

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

A physical death was already in creation as can be seen via the second law of thermodynamics, thus Adam did not bring this death into play.

Butch5 said:
I'm not sure what you mean by this statement, "The death Adam brought into play was the law or ministration of death not a physical death."

Adam/humanity was created in a state of grace, the law had no power over him/them until he/they became disobedient and ate from the tree. Once they ate the ministration of death started its work, reveal to them their sin, ministering death/the wrath of God, to their old man nature.

Butch5 said:
Above you said the Law is a ministration of death. In the sentence I posted here you said the Law is death. Is it the ministration of death or is it death?

BOTH, it ministers DEATH to our old man nature and that old man nature is what is annihilated, not man themselves.

Butch5 said:
Also you said it's not physical death, however, that is simply an arbitrary statement. I could claim the opposite. It's also based on the idea that there is another form of death other than physical death which at this point you haven't proven. Thus the statement is the fallacy of Begging the Question aka Circular Reasoning.

I have proven it, you just don't like it or don't want to acknowledge it.
The law is spiritual.
The law is a ministration of DEATH.
One plus one equals two.

I have also showed that it simply cannot be speaking of a physical death because of the second law of thermodynamics. You either know nothing of this law or are just disregarding it because it goes against what you believe.

Butch5 said:
This is also the Jewish and early Christian understanding of the passage. This passage is from the book of Jubilees

"29. And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth year thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he was the first to be buried in the earth. 30. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye will die."For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it."

Here is a quote from Irenaeus, a disciple of the apostle John.

And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since “a day of the Lord is as a thousand years,” he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin. Whether, therefore, with respect to disobedience, which is death; whether [we consider] that, on account of that, they were delivered over to death, and made debtors to it; whether with respect to [the fact that on] one and the same day on which they ate they also died (for it is one day of the creation); whether [we regard this point], that, with respect to this cycle of days, they died on the day in which they did also eat, that is, the day of the preparation, which is termed “the pure supper,” that is, the sixth day of the feast, which the Lord also exhibited when He suffered on that day; or whether [we reflect] that he (Adam) did not overstep the thousand years, but died within their limit, — it follows that, in regard to all these significations, God is indeed true. For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: “For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him.”[
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

So? many people believe as you do that it is referring to a physical death, that does not mean they are correct. They are not.

Also of note is that people back then had no knowledge of the second law of thermodynamics so were not as informed as we are today. Thus they made mistakes in their writings.

Butch5 said:
Except that the dust is a substance, not a location. God said to Adam, 'dust you are'. Adam is dust. It's not that dust is some location outside of the garden. So, whether Adam was in the garden or outside of it, he was still dust.

Again, your argument assumes that spiritual death exists which hasn't been proven.

Yes mankind is of the earth earthy, but what you are failing to realize is that the garden is a spiritual plain that can only be accessed via grace. Adam was IN that spiritual plain and walked daily with the Lord until he ate and then was put under the ministration of death.

Heck The whole garden story shows mans loss of a spiritual life, you seem to think he only lost a physical life.

Pneuma3 said:
Well if there is no such thing as a spiritual death and the second must be like the first how is it satan and demons die?

Butch5 said:
Loss of life.

So you believe a spirit can lose it life, but don't believe in a spiritual death. good grief.

Butch5 · Jan 3, 2019

Pneuma3 said:
That goes both ways.

Except that you're the one who's claiming it's spiritual death. Since it's your claim the onus is on you to prove it. I asked you to define spiritual, how haven't. You're just randomly claiming that there is spiritual death. No one can see this death, no one can have any way of knowing what this death is. It's just something that you're claiming. On the other hand everyone knows what physical death is and no sane person would deny it's existence.

As, I said before you won't find anything in Scripture that speaks of people dying spiritually, yet you continue to make this claim without any evidence at all. All you've given is "YOUR" interpretation of a couple of passages. Your interpretation isn't Scripture. So, once again, will define spiritual so we can be on the same page.

The law is a ministration of death to our old man nature not the death of man themselves.

Firstly, ministration means to care for someone. The Law is a concept, it's not a actual thing that one can touch. Likewise death is not an actual thing, it's a loss of life. Now since neither are real things they cannot act upon physical matter, ie. people. The law cannot administer death.

Secondly, when Paul speaks of the old man being crucified he's using a figure of speech. The old man is one's way of life or nature, it also is not a physical thing. It's not a living thing is a the way a person lives or is. Something that isn't alive cannot be killed.

Also, it can't be both the can't administer death and be death at the same time.

Butch5 said: ↑

I'm not mixing them up. Just read Paul's writings. The Law he spoke of is the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses didn't exist when Adam was in the garden.

Nonsense the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law and the law is spiritual. Where else do you read the commandments "thou shalt not"? and if you have broken the law in one point you are guilty of all.

Again, you're conflating the two. The 10 Commandments is part of the Law of Moses. What happened in the garden was long before the Law of Moses.

However, you're just making things up now. Show me anything in Scripture that states your claim here, " Nonsense the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law and the law is spiritual."

When Paul said the Law is spiritual he was referring to the Law of Moses.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (Rom. 7:5-14 KJV)

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

When did sin and death enter into the world?
and what is the strength of sin?

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

A physical death was already in creation as can be seen via the second law of thermodynamics, thus Adam did not bring this death into play.

Actually, he did. Death came into the world because Adam sinned and was cast out of the Garden. If had continued to have access to the Tree of Life, which was in the Garden he wouldn't have died.

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Gen. 3:22-23 KJV)

Adam didn't die from the law thermodynamics, he died because he lost access to the Tree of Life. And, that was physical death.

Adam/humanity was created in a state of grace, the law had no power over him/them until he/they became disobedient and ate from the tree. Once they ate the ministration of death started its work, reveal to them their sin, ministering death/the wrath of God, to their old man nature.

I don't believe you can back this up with Scripture.

BOTH, it ministers DEATH to our old man nature and that old man nature is what is annihilated, not man themselves.

Again, it can't be both death and the administrator of death

I have proven it, you just don't like it or don't want to acknowledge it.
The law is spiritual.
The law is a ministration of DEATH.
One plus one equals two.

Again, you're giving me your interpretation of a few passages. That doesn't prove anything. You have to first prove that you're interpretation is correct. Since you're conflating to different concepts of law i'd submit that it's not correct.

I have also showed that it simply cannot be speaking of a physical death because of the second law of thermodynamics. You either know nothing of this law or are just disregarding it because it goes against what you believe.

I'm well aware of the second law of thermodynamics. However, it isn't applicable here since Adam had access to the Tree of Life.

Click to expand...

So? many people believe as you do that it is referring to a physical death, that does not mean they are correct. They are not.

No it doesn't mean they are correct. However, what it shows is that people who were much closer to the events and the Jews who had God's word didn't believe in some "spiritual death" idea. Instead they got their belief right from the Scriptures which state that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years.

Also of note is that people back then had no knowledge of the second law of thermodynamics so were not as informed as we are today. Thus they made mistakes in their writings.

As I pointed out, the second Law of Thermodynamics has no bearing on the subject. Adam didn't die because of the second Law of Thermodynamics, he died because he lost access to the Tree of Life. Had he not lost access to the Tree of Life he'd still be alive today regardless of the second Law of Thermodynamics.

Yes mankind is of the earth earthy, but what you are failing to realize is that the garden is a spiritual plain that can only be accessed via grace. Adam was IN that spiritual plain and walked daily with the Lord until he ate and then was put under the ministration of death.

Sorry, but this is just speculation at best. I don't believe you can support this with Scripture.

Heck The whole garden story shows mans loss of a spiritual life, you seem to think he o.nly lost a physical life.

Because Physical death is all there is. You've yet to prove otherwise. As I said, you're interpretation isn't proof

So you believe a spirit can lose it life, but don't believe in a spiritual death. good grief.

No, I don't believe a spirit can lose its life. If you read what I said, I said some people may argue that a demon could die and call that spiritual death. However, The English word "spirit" is just a figurative expression for the Greek word Pneuma. Pneuma literally means wind or breath. So when a being that is not human is called a spirit, it is a figure of speech. The problem is that people use the figure of speech as the literal definition instead of as a figure of Speech. So, when you speak of spiritual death what you're really saying is "wind death or "breath death." Can you please tell me what "wind death" or "death breath" are? I really have no idea whatsoever.

Let me save you a lot of typing. Let's just start with you showing where the Scriptures speak of a human being dying a spiritual death. I mean where the Bible says it, not where you've inferred it.

Ronald · Jan 3, 2019

FineLinen said:
"The life of grace is not an effort on our part to achieve a goal we set ourselves. It is a continually renewed attempt simply to believe that someone else has done all the achieving that is needed and to live in relationship with that person, whether we achieve or not. If that doesn’t seem like much to you, you’re right: it isn’t. And, as a matter of fact, the life of grace is even less than that. It’s not even our life at all, but the life of that Someone Else rising like a tide in the ruins of our death.” -Robert Farrar Capon-

We are participants, cooperating with God's plan. God works through us to do good works. This is why James says, "show me your works." It is not works to achieve salvation, Christ did that work. God has a plan, and His plan deals with our lives, to be reconciled to Him and conformed to the likeness of Christ.
We have to wake up every morning and say, "Here I am, what would you have me do today LORD?" "Your will be done in my life."
The body of Christ is all the believers functioning like cells within the fibers, organs and systems in our bodies. Living cells, not dead cells, accomplish His plan.
Peace to you, may the grace of God shine on you living soul and forever.

FineLinen · Jan 3, 2019

Help of the Helpless

Daring to extrapolate the full implications of Jesus' statement, "Without Me, you can do nothing," I reached the conclusion years ago that the point of intersection of the sovereignty of God and the collective believers' subjective state is an intersection of the Father's decision to act, and our fully recognized state of utter helplessness until He does.

I expect to see indication of the impending, final, consummate move of God in an accelerated realization of our poverty of spirit; that is, of having no autonomous spiritual resources in ourselves. As long as we imagine that God is awaiting our facilitating of His purpose, we deceive ourselves into thinking that we are not, in fact, spiritually bankrupt in and of ourselves and bereft of any ability to contribute to the doing of God.

Nowhere are we told that we are to be God's helpers, but rather, God is "our help in time of need." But we must face how great is our need. Does the Lord simply step in to add His strength to ours? Is that the meaning of the Lord as our Helper? No, certainly not! He is the Helper of the utterly helpless, not of those who merely need Him to supercharge their efforts.

There is no positive place in the administration of God for joint-enterprise; no place for, "If you will do your part, God will do His"; "God helps those who help themselves"; 'God is waiting for you to......"; "You need to let God...."

The Lord has granted us in Christ a non-contributing, fully-participating partnership in the fulfillment of His purpose for man for His glory, a glory that He freely gives by grace to us without any element of meriting the same. Thus, nothing can substitute for a good dose of failure to qualify one for this mode of participation.

The world exalts those whom it judges to "have the right stuff," but it is very apparent in scripture's record of the history of many of the men and women within whom God worked, that at some point their preparation for service brought them, not to a place where they said, 'I'm ready, Lord; I've got the right stuff,' but rather, if I may paraphrase a rhetorical collage of their combined attitude: "What, me? You've got to be kidding, Lord. I don't have what it takes." -John Gavazzoni-

ClementofA · Jan 3, 2019

Ronald said:
Your knowledge, perception and discernment is flawed!
Didn't anyone ever teach you the importance of context? You can't just pull a scripture out and form a whole theology out of it.
Now, this particular passage and the WHOLE BOOK of MICAH pertains to ISRAEL. God has a covenant with them specifically and according to Romans 11, He is not done with them and will keep his promises.

The gentile world was given the Gospel and was not to be expected to live under the Old Testament LAW. We live under Grace. So when Jesus came along, things changed. Besides all that, in that verse, "indignation" is used instead of wrath. It is a milder anger, a displeasure, but a finale fury of end times judgment which involves destruction. That word is used in the KJ, NKJ, ESV, ASB, NASB, RSV, WEB, YLT and many others. Why, because it pertains to Israel, His chosen nation.

The Greek word for "wrath" in John 3:36 is the same Greek word (Strongs #3709; OGRE) used in Micah 7:9 of the Septuagint which was the Bible of the early church.

The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Ronald said:
Chew on this one for awhile:
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
1 Thes. 5-9 NASB

Young's Literal Translation
because God did not appoint us to anger, but to the acquiring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Those who believe will be saved from God's anger & the lake of fire. Those who do not believe will suffer God's anger/wrath until they reconciled to God, as all shall be. All will obtain life, righteousness & God in them:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Ronald said:
Again, you fail to understand the doctrines of faith, as if person doesn't not need faith to get into heaven.
You fail to understand death, destruction, salvation. If everyone gets saved without having to believe, you must ignore the numerous scriptures that exhort faith in Jesus as a requirement. You obviously ignore all the scriptures I presented as if they are non-existent.

You demonstrate ignorance of the A,B,C's of Biblical universalism & misrepresent it. Universalism does not say "everyone gets saved without having to believe" or "person doesn't not [sic] need faith to get into heaven." No one gets saved without faith. Since all will be reconciled to God, made righteous, have life, have their sins taken away, etc, all will have faith & be saved.

Ronald said:
Why do you think that for almost 2,000 years the gospel is spread with a sense of urgency, to as many people, nations?

Has it? Many millions who never heard the gospel while alive are now dead? Where do you suppose they are now & will be for eternity? God wills that all be saved (1 Tim.2:4-6). Can His will & desire be thwarted for eternity?

Premise 1: God desires all be saved. (e.g., 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires (thelo) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.")

Premise 2: God accomplishes all He desires. (e.g., Isaiah 55:11: "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire (thelo, from the Septuagint), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.")

Conclusion: All will be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

Ronald said:
Where in all the Bible do you get that there is somehow a second chance after one dies to be then drawn to the Father through Jesus, by way of the Word and become transformed in Hades or the lake of fire???

Where does it say anyone isn't & God's love expires as quickly as a carton of milk? If Love Omnipotent doesn't save all is it because He's impotent or He doesn't want to? See below:

Ronald said:
That last verse is post judgment, after all reprodates have been destroyed, after Hades and death itself ha e been destroyed. So of course in the new heaven and earth, every creature (and all animals as well have been changes to a harmonious, peaceful state) will be perfected since sin and evil are now banished.

In the new heavens & earth there will be no more sea (Rev.21:1). But in Rev.5:13 John includes those in the sea:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb into the eons of the eons.

John "heard" everyone worshiping the Lamb, including those in the sea. In the gospels Jesus sent some demons into pigs who then went into the sea & drowned (Mt.8:32; Mk.5:13; Lk.8:33). Humans have also drowned in the sea, both the wicked & just. John saw them all worshiping the Lamb. Likewise those "under the earth" in their graves and in Hades.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

Of course, like all sinners, which all men are before salvation, they must be saved before they can enter the New Jerusalem. That's why it's gates will never be shut.

On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. (Rev.21:25)

The kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it:

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

How can they do that unless they were outside the city gates before?

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

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ClementofA · Jan 3, 2019

Ronald said:
Justification is made available to ALL MEN THROUGH CHRIST IN THIS LIFE!
We are justified by faith!
You can't acquire faith in Hades. God gives MANY the gift of faith in this life as is evident with 2.42 billion souls.
We must believe in Christ, ask for and receive this gift of eternal life while we are living!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are called, drawn to the Father, by the WORD! Jesus is the WORD. Faith comes by the WORD!
We read and/or hear the Word of God and it transforms us. We are baptized into the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We ask for the Holy Spirit who then takes up residence in our spiritual temple within our living soul We are born again while we are alive. Do you not know that you are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. They aren't spreading the gospel in Hades or passing out Bibles and giving sermons down there!
We were baptized into His death and raised with him. This does not happen after one dies!

***If you have not been baptized by the Holy Spirit, you have not be born again and therefore will not discern scripture spiritually.

2 Tim.2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

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Pneuma3 · Jan 4, 2019

Butch5 said:
Except that you're the one who's claiming it's spiritual death. Since it's your claim the onus is on you to prove it. I asked you to define spiritual, how haven't. You're just randomly claiming that there is spiritual death. No one can see this death, no one can have any way of knowing what this death is. It's just something that you're claiming. On the other hand everyone knows what physical death is and no sane person would deny it's existence.

As, I said before you won't find anything in Scripture that speaks of people dying spiritually, yet you continue to make this claim without any evidence at all. All you've given is "YOUR" interpretation of a couple of passages. Your interpretation isn't Scripture. So, once again, will define spiritual so we can be on the same page.

Firstly, ministration means to care for someone. The Law is a concept, it's not a actual thing that one can touch. Likewise death is not an actual thing, it's a loss of life. Now since neither are real things they cannot act upon physical matter, ie. people. The law cannot administer death.

Secondly, when Paul speaks of the old man being crucified he's using a figure of speech. The old man is one's way of life or nature, it also is not a physical thing. It's not a living thing is a the way a person lives or is. Something that isn't alive cannot be killed.

Also, it can't be both the can't administer death and be death at the same time.

Butch5 said: ↑

I'm not mixing them up. Just read Paul's writings. The Law he spoke of is the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses didn't exist when Adam was in the garden.

Again, you're conflating the two. The 10 Commandments is part of the Law of Moses. What happened in the garden was long before the Law of Moses.

However, you're just making things up now. Show me anything in Scripture that states your claim here, " Nonsense the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law and the law is spiritual."

When Paul said the Law is spiritual he was referring to the Law of Moses.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (Rom. 7:5-14 KJV)

Actually, he did. Death came into the world because Adam sinned and was cast out of the Garden. If had continued to have access to the Tree of Life, which was in the Garden he wouldn't have died.

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Gen. 3:22-23 KJV)

Adam didn't die from the law thermodynamics, he died because he lost access to the Tree of Life. And, that was physical death.

I don't believe you can back this up with Scripture.

Again, it can't be both death and the administrator of death

Again, you're giving me your interpretation of a few passages. That doesn't prove anything. You have to first prove that you're interpretation is correct. Since you're conflating to different concepts of law i'd submit that it's not correct.

I'm well aware of the second law of thermodynamics. However, it isn't applicable here since Adam had access to the Tree of Life.

Click to expand...

No it doesn't mean they are correct. However, what it shows is that people who were much closer to the events and the Jews who had God's word didn't believe in some "spiritual death" idea. Instead they got their belief right from the Scriptures which state that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years.

As I pointed out, the second Law of Thermodynamics has no bearing on the subject. Adam didn't die because of the second Law of Thermodynamics, he died because he lost access to the Tree of Life. Had he not lost access to the Tree of Life he'd still be alive today regardless of the second Law of Thermodynamics.

Sorry, but this is just speculation at best. I don't believe you can support this with Scripture.

Because Physical death is all there is. You've yet to prove otherwise. As I said, you're interpretation isn't proof

No, I don't believe a spirit can lose its life. If you read what I said, I said some people may argue that a demon could die and call that spiritual death. However, The English word "spirit" is just a figurative expression for the Greek word Pneuma. Pneuma literally means wind or breath. So when a being that is not human is called a spirit, it is a figure of speech. The problem is that people use the figure of speech as the literal definition instead of as a figure of Speech. So, when you speak of spiritual death what you're really saying is "wind death or "breath death." Can you please tell me what "wind death" or "death breath" are? I really have no idea whatsoever.

Let me save you a lot of typing. Let's just start with you showing where the Scriptures speak of a human being dying a spiritual death. I mean where the Bible says it, not where you've inferred it.

eek gad where do I start as basic math seems to elude you.
I am going to give this in point form as to break it all down for you would just be a waiste of my time.

The is no such thing as a tree that gives knowledge or a tree that gives life.

Those two trees are a representation of the law and life in Christ. they are a shadow of that which is true.

the tree of KOGE gives one a knowledge of sin.
The law gives a knowledge of sin.
1+1=2

The law is spiritual
The law is a ministration of death
1+1=2

And we know because of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which you said you are aware of, that a physical DEATH was in the world a long time before Adam ate so how can it be a physical death that Adam brought into the world.

Thus because you continue to maintain that it was a physical death that Adam brought into the world I know you have no understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics for if you did you would have already seen your error.

SarahsKnight · Jan 4, 2019

Butch5 said:
We've been over this too many times. I've already shown numerous times that the reasoning you use is not valid. The Jewish encyclopedia and the other works you post are simply not inspired by God.

But, but .... ! You don't understand, Butch! It's gotta be eternal torture, or it's just not a good enough punishment for our enemies! It's ECT, or nothing, hmmph! *stamps feet*

Der Alte · Jan 4, 2019

Butch5 said:
We've been over this too many times. I've already shown numerous times that the reasoning you use is not valid. The Jewish encyclopedia and the other works you post are simply not inspired by God.

Your opinion about the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia, the Talmud and other sources I cite is not relevant. Of course you are going to attack any source I quote simply because they prove you wrong. There is an old saying that goes something like this, " "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." And you making unsupported claims and opinions do not "show" me anything. What I have shown from historical sources there was a belief in "hell" among the Jews before, during and after the time of Jesus. There was a belief in hell among the early church fathers.

Der Alte · Jan 4, 2019

SarahsKnight said:
But, but .... ! You don't understand, Butch! It's gotta be eternal torture, or it's just not a good enough punishment for our enemies! It's ECT, or nothing, hmmph! *stamps feet*

Do you think ignoring all the posts in this thread and posting this false implication does anything for your argument?

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 4, 2019

Butch5 said:
We've been over this too many times. I've already shown numerous times that the reasoning you use is not valid. The Jewish encyclopedia and the other works you post are simply not inspired by God.

Der Alter said:
Your opinion about the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia, the Talmud and other sources I cite is not relevant. Of course you are going to attack any source I quote simply because they prove you wrong. There is an old saying that goes something like this, " "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." And you making unsupported claims and opinions do not "show" me anything. What I have shown from historical sources there was a belief in "hell" among the Jews before, during and after the time of Jesus. There was a belief in hell among the early church fathers.

Der A. , without trying to remember any other posts I've read of your or Butches, without remembering any issues except this only one:
"inspired by God" -- without even knowing what Butch has shown ever besides right here --
"inspired by God" being the one and only question I'm addressing,
(so practically with no context at all , for here and now; nothing before nor with nor after < concerning any issue or argument > )

When you named your historical sources (3) as showing that "among the Jews before, during and after the time of Jesus. etc..." they believed in something (the 'something' doesn't matter as far as I know) ...
I'm kind of stepping right into this, ....

None of the sources nor peoples you posted just now,
are "inspired by God"......

If that matters.

That's all, really, and I don't know if this is important or not for this thread/ topic/ subject.

Oh, and worse , that is not only not inspired, but also asociated with and thus subject to the theory of universalism, thus not 'valid' to anyone I know, are linen's posts.

Der Alte · Jan 4, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Der A. , without trying to remember any other posts I've read of your or Butches, without remembering any issues except this only one:
"inspired by God" -- without even knowing what Butch has shown ever besides right here --
"inspired by God" being the one and only question I'm addressing,
(so practically with no context at all , for here and now; nothing before nor with nor after < concerning any issue or argument > )

When you named your historical sources (3) as showing that "among the Jews before, during and after the time of Jesus. etc..." they believed in something (the 'something' doesn't matter as far as I know) ...
I'm kind of stepping right into this, ....

None of the sources nor peoples you posted just now,
are "inspired by God"......

If that matters.

That's all, really, and I don't know if this is important or not for this thread/ topic/ subject.

Oh, and worse , that is not only not inspired, but also asociated with and thus subject to the theory of universalism, thus not 'valid' to anyone I know, are linen's posts.

Since you have not read my posts your opinion about what is or is not relevant is absolutely meaningless.
Here is a link to my [post #585] this thread. Which B5 is referring to.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 4, 2019

Der Alter said:
Since you have not read my posts your opinion about what is or is not relevant is absolutely meaningless.
Here is a link to my [post #585] this thread. Which B5 is referring to.

It is your argument only that I am addressing here, (apparently), that something not inspired, could ever be as good as what is true from God (i.e. inspired by God).

i.e. regardless of your position or posts , if you rely on what is not from God, then you are building on quicksand, like the house not built on solid rock when the storm comes.

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