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You repeating this over and over and over does not make it true. As I have shown from scripture in my [post #856] above.
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We've been over this too many times. I've already shown numerous times that the reasoning you use is not valid. The Jewish encyclopedia and the other works you post are simply not inspired by God.
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You response is not valid. It just exposes the faulty reasoning of whatever heterodox group you associate with. What my JE, EJ and Talmud references prove is what the Jews believed about the fate of the wicked, based on the OT, before, during and after the time of Jesus. Jesus would have known about their belief in hell. And although Jesus taught much about the fate of the wicked He never contradicted the teachings of the Jews. Jesus contradicted the teachings of the Jews many times. Would Jesus allow false teaching about hell to continue in Judaism without saying anything about it?
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Even this post has fallacies in it. Instead quoting your sources it might better to study logical fallacies. If you did that you'd see that your argument is fallacious.
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This response is in the category of "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" I am well aware of logical fallacies and I have not used one. If you think so put your cards on the table and let me prove you wrong. When you don't that will show you don't know what your are talking about. It is certainly not an argument from silence.
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Dear Ronald: My friend as we enter into a new year listen to the vibrating tongs to which an instrument is tuned.
Reason teaches us that Good having a divine Principle, ought to be stronger than Evil, which is essentially nothing but Disorder and Depravation; that Evil putting man into a State of Violence, that State cannot continue for ever; that this State of Violence supposes its contrary in Man, struggling against it…that God being the God of Order, and the undoubted Sovereign of the Universe, can never consent that Disorder and Confusion should prevail there for ever. --Marie Huber, Protestant Theologian-
How could the Bible possibly speak of the perfect victory of God our Creator who loves righteousness and cannot bear evil, if that victory really means that He cannot bring His own creatures at last to hate evil as He hates it, but must confirm multitudes, indeed the majority of them, in their choice of evil for ever and ever?... What sort of victory is it to be able only to subdue evil and prevent it harming any but those who choose it, and to be unable to bring human souls to abominate it and desire to forsake it, so that the evil itself ceases to exist?... –Hannah Hurnard-
To say that sin, assuming it to be opposed to God, has the power of creating a world antagonistic to God as everlasting as He is, attributes to it a power equal at least to His; since according to this view, souls whom God willed to be saved, and for whom Christ died, are held in bondage under the power of sin for ever; and all this in opposition to the Word of God, which says that God's Son was "manifested that He might destroy the works of the devil..." --Andrew Jukes, The Restitution of all Things
To go on punishing for ever, simply for punishment's sake, shocks every sentiment of justice. And the case is so much worse when the punishment is really the prolongation of evil, when it is but making evil endless. --Thomas Allin, Christ Triumphant
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It is not compared to the first one and second means simply the it is second in sequence. First is not like second and one is not like two.
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scripture disagrees with you.
The law is spiritual
The law is a ministration of death.
Thus there is a spiritual death.
And Paul speaks many times of death being associated with the law.
I also notice you made a distinction between humans and I presume satan or demons, yet it is the SAME second death they experience so how can you then justify your stance that there is no spiritual death?
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We're not going to be able to have a debate until you're willing to accept the norms of the process. You can't just reject someone's evidence because it disagrees with your theology. You can't just claim your argument doesn't contains fallacies when it contains fallacies. It's funny that you mention the 'I'm right and you're wrong' argument when that's the exact the strategy you use. Anything that disagrees with your theology you simply rejected. Thus everyone else is wrong and you're right.
Also, if you're going to hold your sources in higher authority than the Scriptures we have no basis for debate as we have two different sources of authority.
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Marie Huber is leaning on her own understanding, as you are seeking understanding outside the Bible to support your views!
Evil is not any thing, it has no substance. It has to do with a relationship between people and God, with each other and with things. The relationship is distorted and perverted, unrighteous and in opposition to it's Creator. As sin is a rebelliousness against God, what is good.
Again I do not adhere to eternal punishment.
The lake of fire (Hell) is the "second death" (Rev. 20:14)
So, there is the first death (during the Great Tribulation at the Second Coming of Christ) and then after the Millennial Kingdom, the second death. You seem to believe that God's wrath of fire and brimstone is a purification. The Jews will go through that sort of purification during the GT, but this is not judgment. God chastises those He loves as we chastise our children. The Great White Throne Judgment is NOT AN EXAMPLE OF CHASTISING GROUNDED IN LOVE.
God does not subject his own to wrath. Wrath is not love, it is judgment. "Vengeance is mine" says the LORD! So remember God does not love everyone. He hated Esau. His commands for Israel to destroy ALL TRIBES that occupied the Promise Land. "But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you," Deut. 20:17
"If anyone's name was not found in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:15
*You seem to ignore that there is a Book of Life and that everyone's name is not in it!
Another numb nut who disregards the teachings in the Bible and formulates her own philosophy.
"And this gospel shall be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations and then the end will come." Matt. 24:14
The gospel is preached on earth only, not in Hades or the Lake of Fire after death.
This verse speaks of the time of the Second Coming and up to that point, at the time of the LAST TRUMPET, those on earth have a opportunity to come to Christ. But after that, the Seven Bowls of Wrath come and notice, no one repents after that time, they curse God. No one repents because the Church is raptured/resurrected, which also mean the Restrainer is taken out of the way. Am I too deep for you? Do you know who the Restrainer is? The Holy Spirit. Without the Church (all believers where the Holy Spirit resides), it is impossible to be drawn to God, without God the Holy Spirit.
"I tell you, no; unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." Luke 13:3
"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Matt.7:19
"... Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matt. 10:28
"in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall suffer justice - destruction age-during - from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength." 2 Thes. 1:8, 9
Vengeance is the LORD'S. His love for HIS OWN requires JUDGMENT against those who have sinned against us.
Destruction is capital punishment, not a loving chastisement that refines you as gold is refined. Destruction means to put an end to as is described here:
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with an intense heat and the earth and its works will be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10
This will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment. The first heaven and first with Hades (all souls in Hades) and death WILL BE DESTROYED.
The behold, God creates a new heaven and earth where all believers in Christ will live forever
Another numb nut philosopher who doesn't understand what faith is and that we are saved by grace through faith.
Right, agreed, which is why I do not adhere to eternal punishment. To put an end to is total destruction. You can't destroy something over and over as if an indestructible destruction or an imperishable perishing makes any sense.
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Dear Ronald: It is truly exciting having one on C.F. who knows what sin is and the many dimensions. I am standing with those "nuts" who behold absolute perfection in our Father's Realm in the process of kelkuo.
Ronald: stand before Him in this new year; let your life vibrate between the Tuning Forks of Heaven. Your entire being will undergo radical transformation, not in one encounter, but in the present progressive glory of coming to know Him in the unspeakable.
In those encounters there are common every day bushes that require a removal of one's shoes.
“Earth's crammed with heaven,
And every common bush afire with God,
But only he who sees takes off his shoes;
The rest sit round and pluck blackberries.”
― Elizabeth Barrett Browning
Ronald: stand before Him in this new year; let your life vibrate between the Tuning Forks of Heaven. Your entire being will undergo radical transformation, not in one encounter, but in the present progressive glory of coming to know Him in the unspeakable.
In those encounters there are common every day bushes that require a removal of one's shoes.
“Earth's crammed with heaven,
And every common bush afire with God,
But only he who sees takes off his shoes;
The rest sit round and pluck blackberries.”
― Elizabeth Barrett Browning
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<B5>We're not going to be able to have a debate until you're willing to accept the norms of the process. You can't just reject someone's evidence because it disagrees with your theology. You can't just claim your argument doesn't contains fallacies when it contains fallacies. It's funny that you mention the 'I'm right and you're wrong' argument when that's the exact the strategy you use. Anything that disagrees with your theology you simply reject. Thus everyone else is wrong and you're right.
Also, if you're going to hold your sources in higher authority than the Scripturss we have no basis for debate as we have two different sources of authority.<B5>
Your opinion, assumptions/presuppositions are not the "norms of the process."
I don't reject someone's "evidence" because it disagrees with mine, I counter it with credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical etc. evidence.
If my argument has fallacies you have yet to clearly identify what is a fallacy and why it is a fallacy.
Or do you just call everything a fallacy when it proves your argument wrong?
I don't hold anything in higher authority than scripture as translated by competent scholars but not as interpreted by people who could not locate a Hebrew verb or parse or conjugate a Greek verb if their life depended on it.
And who also cherry pick sources simply on the basis of which ones support their assumptions/presuppositions.
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The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:
Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)
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God so loved the world (Jn.3:16). That includes Esau.
In Scripture the word hate or hatred has shades of meaning including loving someone to a lesser degree.
"Cp. Genesis 29:33; Genesis 29:30, for proof that this word, in contrast with love, need not imply positive hatred, but the absence of love, or even less love. One verse there tells us that Jacob “hated” Leah, the other that he “loved Rachel more.” "
The meaning of "hate" here:
Luke_14:26
If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple.
is shown to mean not love them more than Jesus here:
Matthew 10:37
Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me;
"Regarding God's hate to Esau, Vincent's Word Studies has this to say:
The expression (hatred) is intentionally strong as an expression of moral antipathy. Compare Mat 6:24; Luk 14:26. No idea of malice is implied of course."
Rom 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
"There you have it, according to them. God does not just hate the sin, but the sinner as well. Case closed, we should all go home right? Wait a minute. Let's take a
close look at that. Let's find out whether this verse really is about God hating a sinner:
Rom 9:10-13
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,
that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her (Rebecca), The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
This is not even a scripture about God hating a sinner. According to the Bible, God had made a decision about Esau, and Jacob without them "having done any good or evil." "
Jason Pratt said:
"The quick answer is that Paul is quoting one of the prophets talking about how God is going to make Israel instead of Edom the prime nation in the world, even though both nations have been horribly sinful and both nations are going to be destroyed to death. Edom is restored later as prophesied elsewhere, but Israel will be restored first and in authority (and not due to Israel’s own righteousness but due to God’s gracious choice.)
"The Jacob/Esau story in Genesis behind this (Edom being the nation descended from Esau), involves Isaac blessing Esau in Jacob even though Jacob will be the inheritor; and Esau and Jacob eventually reconciling with each other in one of the most beautiful and famous stories of the Bible. So Esau isn’t hopelessly punished, no moreso than Jacob/Israel is (who acted like a satan to Esau in order to get the inheritance blessing from Isaac).
In a nutshell, universalism has...?
Rom.1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Worthy of death, not endless tortures or endless annihilation.
Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom.11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath imprisoned them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
36 For out of him, and through him, and into him, is all: to whom be glory into the eons. Amen.
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.
Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.
"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).
For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Traditio Deformis | David Bentley Hart
"I respectfully view your interpretation as the opposite of most careful Bible students, who recognize here and in its' OT context, God's ability to have mercy however he pleases is precisely that he can choose to have it toward those completely undeserving, such as those you see as "wicked God haters." Indeed, Paul's express point in speaking of those God hates and hardens and those He loves and chooses, Issac vs. Esau, is that Issac whom God loves is not the most wicked or deserving one, but a scoundrel chosen before he ever did anything. He further makes clear that those who experience such a puzzling 'hardening' are not those rejected by God, or consigned to 'hell,' but in chapter 11 that the point of all such binding people over to disobedience is that God will "have mercy upon everyone."
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
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The fact that all those peoples who Israel was to "utterly destroy" will be resurrected after they were "utterly destroyed" proves that "utterly destroy" in the Scriptures does not mean endlessly annihilate out of existence.
In fact even after that destruction God says He loved them (Jn.3:16) in sending Jesus to die for their sins (1 John 1:2) & take away their sins (Jn.1:29) which He shall do & will make them sinless, hence saved from their sins (cf. Mt.1:21; 2:6).
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You don't realize the truth that all will obtain life, righteousness & God in them:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.
Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.
"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).
For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.
"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."
"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108
108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."
"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."
"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."
(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)
1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.
So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:
1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
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There's no mention of "eternal punishment" in Mt.10:28 or anywhere else in the Scriptures.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
God "can" destroy. That doesn't mean He will. Nor does "destroy" mean endless annihilation.
In the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar lost his soul when God made him act insanely like an animal for 7 years. God's destruction/ruining of the kings' soul meant the loss of his soul for the king.
Likewise the prodigal son "lost" (same Greek word as "destroyed" in Mt.10:28) his soul when he left his father for the world. Later when he "came back to his senses", he "found" his soul. His Father said his son was "dead" and "lost" (i.e. destroyed). Though he was obviously never annihilated.
How is it that God is "able" to destroy body & soul in Gehenna. Supposedly if angels cast people into it, that in itself could destroy their mortal bodies, due to the fires in Gehenna. But how would literal fire destroy a non corporeal soul? If Satan & demons are there to possess people, just casting them into Gehenna could result in them being spiritually & psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine, e.g. demon possession. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.
Not only is God "able" to destroy [or ruin, lose] both body and soul...Jesus followers are told they must destroy their own souls to "find" them:
Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv
Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.
Others can kill your body, but not your soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna. v.28
You can destroy your own soul. v.39...that is, ruin it.
By speaking of destroying your own soul, v.39 refers not to endless annihilation of your soul. So, in context, neither does verse 28 when God speaks of destroying a soul.
If you don't willingly destroy your soul (v.39) in this life, God will/is able to do it for you in the afterlife (v.28). But whether He does it for you or not, you will surely destroy your own soul by "finding" it (v.39) in this life. Since you destroy [but not annihilate] your own soul by finding it, why would God need to destroy it again, even though He is "able"? Though it is conceivable He could destroy it to a greater degree than it was destroyed before. Especially if people in Gehenna continued to rebel and harden themselves...cf Lk.11:26; Mt.12:45...7 times worse can occur. Scripture speaks of evil men shall becoming worse and worse, of the deep things of satan some have known, being possessed with a legion of demons, & few and many stripes (Lk.12:47-48).
What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).
Even in this life one can be delivered to Satan for destruction that one may be saved:
1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Similarly the Scriptures speak of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostacized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:
"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."
As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":
Definition of DESTROY
A common definition of "destroy":
"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "
The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.
The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:
Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv
By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?
A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:
Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.
Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.
Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?
Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.
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This is an arbitrary statement. I could just claim the opposite. If I give you an apple and an orange, you don't have two apples and you don't have two oranges. In order to have two apples the second one has to be an apple like the first. It can't be an orange.
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No, the Scriptures don't disagree with me. It's your interpretation that disagrees with me. You see, the Scriptures can't speak. They can't say, 'this is what I mean.' We have to read them and then interpret them. We interpret them based on our presuppositions. If our presuppositions are wrong then it's likely that our interpretation is going to be wrong also.
Firstly, it would help if you would define "spiritual' so that we can be on the same page.
You'e conflating two things here. Here you speak of the Law and that Paul said that death is associated with the Law. However, in your post about "Two Deaths" the law you wrote of is that of Adam disobeying God's command not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. They are two different laws. Paul is writing about the Law of Moses. But, the law you're speaking of is also associated with physical death, not spiritual. God told Adam, in the day he ate of the tree he would die. When Adam ate from it God told him he would return to the dust, he said, 'for dust you are and to dust you shall return'. That's physical death. Moses recorded the creation of man and said that God created man from the dust of the earth and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. Man is dust and the death he suffers is returning to dust, that's physical, physical death.
Yes, I did make a distinction between humans and demons and yes they both suffer the same death. That death is loss of life. The difference is what they consist of. Man is dust, the demons are not. Even though they may be different life forms they both suffer the same death, loss of life. The reason for mentioning it was that someone might claim that spiritual death is the death of a demon. That's why I said you won'd find anything about humans suffering a spiritual death. It's not in Scripture anywhere, it's just not there.
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