Does this verse refute pre-trib rapture?

miknik5 said:

Another question those who are around the throne in heaven. These 24 elders in white robes. Who are they and where do you place them in regards to the time if tribulation

Are they all those who were raptured before the tribulation

Or did they suffer some of the tribulation?

And wouldn't you say the first fruits have a right to reign during the 1000 year reign?

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Can someone answer this question

Thank you

Straightshot said:

"would you mind expounding Revelation 14"

The 144000 of Israel will spread the gospel of the kingdom during the tribulation [Revelation 14:1-7]

Revelation 14:8 reveals the destruction of the "great city" of MBG .... this will be the first judgment of the tribulation period just after the 144000 are sealed [Revelation 8:6-12; 17:16-18; 18:1-21]

Then the warning against those who will worship the beast and their fate [14:9-11]

Many who will become believers during the tribulation will be killed by the beast [Revelation 13:7; 14:13]

Next is a picture of the battle of Armageddon at the end of the tribulation [Revelation 14:14-20; Ezekiel 38; 39; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5:5-15; 19:11-21]

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Straight shot, you believe the 144,000 who preach during the tribulation will never be (physically) killed?

i am trying to get my head around this because I thought that all (even these 144,000) are seen in Heaven before the throne in white robes prior to the 1000 year reign. Therefore I assumed that all those who belong to the Lord who have a part in the first resurrection who sit on thrones and reign as priests with HIM during the 1000 year reign have these white garments seen in Heaven because all these have died once physically.

miknik said:

"May I ask where the 144,000 who die (who are in heaven) what their "outcome" in heaven is

Are they also waiting or are they included with those who have been raptured whose position in heaven is immortal?"

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straightshot said:

There will be those who will become believers during the tribulation and will be martyred for their faith [Revelation 13:7; 14:13]

These will have to wait until the end of the tribulation for their immortality [Revelation 6:9-11; 15:2-3; 20:4 [those beheaded]]

The 144000 are a unique group ... the first believers of the coming tribulation

They are saved mortals of the nation of Israel who will spread the gospel of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth [Matthew 24:14]

These will follow the Lord's direction and will be protected [sealed] from the wiles of the tribulation during their mission, and they will begin from Israel and then move to the nations

These will be saved mortals and part of the saved of Israel who will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 7:1-8; 9:4; 14:1-7]

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I do not agree with your understanding of the 144,000 as saved mortals who will populate the earth

mmksparbud said:

Instead of saying what you think the scriptures say it would help if you quote them. Nowhere does it say that the Scribes and Pharisees were the decedents of Cain. He said their father was the devil. Which goes right back to:

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Which goes right back to the three sons of Noah[Shem, Ham, and Japheth] and their descendants after the flood.

The good seed....The woman seed [Genesis 3:15][SETH, Genesis 5]
We know that Shem is the lineage through which came Abraham, David ,Jesus ...

http://www.gotquestions.org/sons-of-Noah.html

AND The bad seed :
While Ham's descendants through Ham's wife who was possibly a Kenite descendants of Cain [Genesis 4:16-24] the continuation of the bad seed lineage Genesis 3:15 [Cain's offspring] / that went to inhabitate in the land of Canaan...

The Hamitic peoples are shown in Genesis 10:6–20 as becoming a godless and worldly power...

Ham, the youngest of the Noah’s three sons, had four sons: Cush, Mizraim (Hebrew for “Egypt”), Put, and Canaan (Genesis 10:6; 1 Chronicles 1:8). Egypt was later called the “land of Ham” (Psalm 78:51; 105:23; 106:22). The Hamitic peoples are shown in Genesis 10:6–20 as becoming a godless and worldly power. It was the land of Palestine that was assigned to Ham’s son, Canaan, and for centuries it was under the control of the Egyptians. Ham is the father of the Arabians, Canaanites, and Africans, including the Egyptians. Due to Ham’s sin against his father (Genesis 9:20–25), Noah cursed Canaan, saying Canaan would be a servant to Shem (Genesis 9:26). This was fulfilled centuries later when the Israelites entered the land of Canaan and subdued the inhabitants of that land (1 Kings 9:20–21).

Genealogy of Noah's sons descendants
Genesis 10

What Jesus is talking about when He declare that the Scribes and Pharisees [impostors Jews ]are not from Abraham seed lineage... can be traced in the Bible

something that the Bible and Jesus documented Revelation 2:9 / Revelation 3:9 ,and have its importance in the End time prophecy:


The Synagogue of Satan: Those Who Claim To Be Judah But Do Lie

http://worldeventsandthebible.com/2013/10/the-synagogue-of-satan-those-who-claim.html

--the twelve tribes of Israel had been infiltrated by the imposter Jews. We can read of this in Joshua 9 where the inhabitants of the land worked deceitfully as they disguised themselves as ambassadors from afar. They “took old sacks upon their asses, and wine bottles, old, and rent, and bound up; And old shoes and clouted upon their feet, and old garments upon them; and all the bread of their provision was dry and mouldy. And they went to Joshua unto the camp at Gilgal, and said unto him, and to the men of Israel, We be come from a far country: now therefore make ye a league with us.“

They continued their deception by telling Joshua they heard about the glory of the Israelites God and all He had done for them in Egypt. For that cause, they wanted to be servants of the Israelites. Joshua not consulting with God made a league with them only to find out three days later these men had in fact lied to him and were neighbors. When Joshua inquired as to why they had deceived him, they stated, “Because it was certainly told thy servants, how that the LORD thy God commanded his servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you, therefore we were sore afraid of our lives because of you, and have done this thing.” This command by God is documented in Deuteronomy 20:17 and was required because He knew who these people were and they most definitely “were not of the children of Israel,” (1 Kings 9:20).

Joshua would make yet another mistake by not consulting God first. He would state the deceivers are now cursed and will forever be the servants of Israel serving as bondsmen, servers of water and hewers of wood in the very temple of God (Joshua 9:23). Little known to Joshua, this curse would be upon the Israelites and it would remain with them from that day forward.

Eventually, the nation of Israel was established which included all twelve tribes. However, they fell out of grace with our Father for not heeding His Words and He had the twelve tribes of Israel carried away into captivity, Judah was the last to go. In Jeremiah 24:1-7 God explains He would establish the nation Israel once again. It was described as two baskets of figs which were set before the temple of the Lord. One basket contained good figs while the other basket contained bad figs. This prophecy did not become a reality until the year of our Lord 1948 which we will discuss shortly.

At the time of Ezra when he and the Israelites received permission to return to Israel and rebuild Jerusalem, Ezra stopped on their journey to take count of the tribes. He counted many priests but not one of them was a Livitical priest, which is to say the tribe of Levi (Ezra 8:15). Instead they were all “Nethinims” which are “temple servants,” (Strong’s word 5411) “whom David and the princes had appointed for the service of the Levites,” (Ezra 8:20). Yes, those same ones Joshua brought into the temple as servants to do the work of the Livitical priests.

1 Chronicles 2:55
55 “And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.”

Riberra said:

Which goes right back to the three sons of Noah[Shem, Ham, and Japheth] and their descendants after the flood.

The good seed....The woman seed [Genesis 3:15][SETH, Genesis 5]
We know that Shem is the lineage through which came Abraham, David ,Jesus ...

http://www.gotquestions.org/sons-of-Noah.html

AND The bad seed :
While Ham's descendants through Ham's wife who was possibly a Kenite descendants of Cain [Genesis 4:16-24] the continuation of the bad seed lineage Genesis 3:15 [Cain's offspring] / that went to inhabitate in the land of Canaan...

The Hamitic peoples are shown in Genesis 10:6–20 as becoming a godless and worldly power...

Ham, the youngest of the Noah’s three sons, had four sons: Cush, Mizraim (Hebrew for “Egypt”), Put, and Canaan (Genesis 10:6; 1 Chronicles 1:8). Egypt was later called the “land of Ham” (Psalm 78:51; 105:23; 106:22). The Hamitic peoples are shown in Genesis 10:6–20 as becoming a godless and worldly power. It was the land of Palestine that was assigned to Ham’s son, Canaan, and for centuries it was under the control of the Egyptians. Ham is the father of the Arabians, Canaanites, and Africans, including the Egyptians. Due to Ham’s sin against his father (Genesis 9:20–25), Noah cursed Canaan, saying Canaan would be a servant to Shem (Genesis 9:26). This was fulfilled centuries later when the Israelites entered the land of Canaan and subdued the inhabitants of that land (1 Kings 9:20–21).

Genealogy of Noah's sons descendants
Genesis 10

What Jesus is talking about when He declare that the Scribes and Pharisees [impostors Jews ]are not from Abraham seed lineage... can be traced in the Bible

something that the Bible and Jesus documented Revelation 2:9 / Revelation 3:9 ,and have its importance in the End time prophecy:


The Synagogue of Satan: Those Who Claim To Be Judah But Do Lie

http://worldeventsandthebible.com/2013/10/the-synagogue-of-satan-those-who-claim.html

--the twelve tribes of Israel had been infiltrated by the imposter Jews. We can read of this in Joshua 9 where the inhabitants of the land worked deceitfully as they disguised themselves as ambassadors from afar. They “took old sacks upon their asses, and wine bottles, old, and rent, and bound up; And old shoes and clouted upon their feet, and old garments upon them; and all the bread of their provision was dry and mouldy. And they went to Joshua unto the camp at Gilgal, and said unto him, and to the men of Israel, We be come from a far country: now therefore make ye a league with us.“

They continued their deception by telling Joshua they heard about the glory of the Israelites God and all He had done for them in Egypt. For that cause, they wanted to be servants of the Israelites. Joshua not consulting with God made a league with them only to find out three days later these men had in fact lied to him and were neighbors. When Joshua inquired as to why they had deceived him, they stated, “Because it was certainly told thy servants, how that the LORD thy God commanded his servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you, therefore we were sore afraid of our lives because of you, and have done this thing.” This command by God is documented in Deuteronomy 20:17 and was required because He knew who these people were and they most definitely “were not of the children of Israel,” (1 Kings 9:20).

Joshua would make yet another mistake by not consulting God first. He would state the deceivers are now cursed and will forever be the servants of Israel serving as bondsmen, servers of water and hewers of wood in the very temple of God (Joshua 9:23). Little known to Joshua, this curse would be upon the Israelites and it would remain with them from that day forward.

Eventually, the nation of Israel was established which included all twelve tribes. However, they fell out of grace with our Father for not heeding His Words and He had the twelve tribes of Israel carried away into captivity, Judah was the last to go. In Jeremiah 24:1-7 God explains He would establish the nation Israel once again. It was described as two baskets of figs which were set before the temple of the Lord. One basket contained good figs while the other basket contained bad figs. This prophecy did not become a reality until the year of our Lord 1948 which we will discuss shortly.

At the time of Ezra when he and the Israelites received permission to return to Israel and rebuild Jerusalem, Ezra stopped on their journey to take count of the tribes. He counted many priests but not one of them was a Livitical priest, which is to say the tribe of Levi (Ezra 8:15). Instead they were all “Nethinims” which are “temple servants,” (Strong’s word 5411) “whom David and the princes had appointed for the service of the Levites,” (Ezra 8:20). Yes, those same ones Joshua brought into the temple as servants to do the work of the Livitical priests.

1 Chronicles 2:55
55 “And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.”

Click to expand...

Are we responsible to concern ourselves with this? We know there is division and we knew from the beginning there will be a distinction

But HE will call out from and bring into HIS own

Ham did one thing wrong

HE did not do the work if a priest before GOD

Instead of ministering and coverimg HIS father's nakedness

He announced it

The GOSPEL is preached for the very purpose that those who will hear THE GOOD NEWS as it should be heard as GOD making HIS plea through those whom HE calls to be reconciled to HIM in HIS SON may hear and believe and be saved

miknik5 said:

Are we responsible to concern ourselves with this? We know there is division and we knew from the beginning there will be a distinction

But HE will call out from and bring into HIS own

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UNTO His Coming not before .

miknik5 said:

The GOSPEL is preached for the very purpose that those who will hear THE GOOD NEWS as it should be heard as GOD making HIS plea through those whom HE calls to be reconciled to HIM in HIS SON may hear and believe and be saved

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Being saved does not mean being taken to heaven before the tribulation.
Being saved means that those who died in Christ will be resurrected to eternal life to reign with Him on the Earth.

Riberra said:

UNTO His Coming not before .

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What?

Riberra said:

Being saved does not mean being taken to heaven before the tribulation.
Being saved means that those who died in Christ will be resurrected to eternal life to reign with Him on the Earth.

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Yeesss?

And?

What is the difference sir?

If one is saved they can be assured of HIS PROMISES even if HE does tarry

Blessed the man who waits for HIM and keeps his garment with him

miknik5 said:

Yeesss?

And?

What is the difference sir?

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His Coming is described here Matthew 24:29-31.
Do you see that it will not be before the tribulation.

miknik5 said:

If one is saved they can be assured of HIS PROMISES even if HE does tarry

Blessed the man who waits for HIM and keeps his garment with him

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HIS PROMISES will be granted at His Coming.

"I do not agree with your understanding of the 144,000 as saved mortals who will populate the earth"


These will be the first believers of the coming tribulation period .... mortals and sealed for protection from the wiles of the tribulation .... they are a part of the the 12 tribes of Israel, will survive the tribulation, and will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth [Revelation 7;1-8; 14:1-7]

And so will many other mortals of Israel turn to their Messiah and King Jesus Christ during the coming tribulation [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 20:34-44; 39; 40; Daniel 9:24-27; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5; Zechariah 13:8-9; Matthew 24; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 12:6; 12:14-17; 15:2;3]

This thread is about the Lord's early call for His true ecclesia which will include a few of Israel and mostly Gentiles

When the fullness of the Gentiles has been added, the true ecclesia will be made immortal .... these will rule with the Lord over His millennial kingdom upon the earth just after the days of the tribulation [Romans 11:25-36; Revelation 20:4]

mmksparbud said:

That is the day of the Lord---when He comes to get us. Immediately after the tribulation. That is the 2nd coming.

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The following is what Pastor Chuck Smith has said at the Blueletterbible:

It says, "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." All of the tribes of the earth. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Mat 24:31).

Now those who take the post-tribulation theory, that Jesus is not going to take the church out until after the Great Tribulation, use this as one of their chief verses to defend their position. For He shall then, after He returns, after the Great Tribulation, He will then send His angels with the sound of a trumpet. The trumpet of God shall sound, "and they shall gather together, His elect from the four winds from one end of the heavens to the other."

Now one thing that they always disregard is that the Bible speaks of that trump by which the church will be caught up to glory, as the trump of God always shall sound; whereas, they confuse that with the seventh trumpet of the book of Revelation, because the trump of God is called the last trump. And so they say, the seventh trump is the last trumpet in the book of Revelation. But again in the book of Revelation there, the trumpets of the seven angels, and the seven angels prepared to sound their seven trumpets. And there is a vast difference between the seventh trumpet (the trumpet of an angel), which is declared to be a woe, and that trump of God whereby the church should be called to her reward.

Now this particular verse is one of those compilations where Jesus put together three verses out of the Old Testament; whereby, God has promised that when the return of Christ takes place, and the kingdom is established, that God is again going to take back the Jews as His people, as a nation, and He is going to bring them back in the land, and honor them once more.

And in Deuteronomy chapter thirty, three and four, in that particular promise as the Lord is talking about returning them from their captivity, He said, "and if any of you are driven out to the uttermost parts of heaven, from there will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from there He will fetch you. Notice He will gather together from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, but that heaven if you be scattered, He will gather you from there. Deuteronomy 30:4

In Isaiah 27:12-13, there the Lord said, again as He is predicting the regathering of the people "oh ye children of Israel", the end of verse twelve, "it shall come to pass in that day that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish, in the land of Assyria, the outcast from the land of Egypt, and they shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem."

And so the trumpet, the great trumpet sounding, Jesus makes reference to that.

And then once more in Isaiah 11:12. Here they are told to be gathered from the four corners of the earth, or from the four winds, as Jesus makes reference here. "An ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

So it is in harmony with the other prophecies, that this be understood to be the ELECT JEWS, NOT THE CHURCH.

Pastor Present said:

So it is in harmony with the other prophecies, that this be understood to be the ELECT JEWS, NOT THE CHURCH.

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Hya Pastor P, welcome to the forums!

The Elect Jews ARE the Church. Always were.
The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Acts 7:38 speaks of "the church in the wilderness" with Moses. Likewise, Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

Moreover, the apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ). The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

Israelites that accept Christ don't cease to be Israel because they joined the Church. Rather, they are obedient Israel, the remnant of Israel, the elect of Israel. They were the church long before a single gentile was added to their number years later. The Church is Jewish and is Israel at its very foundations and origins (the Israeli apostles).

parousia70 said:

Hya Pastor P, welcome to the forums!

The Elect Jews ARE the Church. Always were.
The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Acts 7:38 speaks of "the church in the wilderness" with Moses. Likewise, Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

Moreover, the apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ). The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

Israelites that accept Christ don't cease to be Israel because they joined the Church. Rather, they are obedient Israel, the remnant of Israel, the elect of Israel. They were the church long before a single gentile was added to their number years later. The Church is Jewish and is Israel at its very foundations and origins (the Israeli apostles).

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You're right - my post was a refutation of post-trib rapture. I believe pre-trib is the only sensible conclusion you can come to by really understanding scriptures on the subject.

Pastor Present said:

You're right - my post was a refutation of post-trib rapture. I believe pre-trib is the only sensible conclusion you can come to by really understanding scriptures on the subject.

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Ok, but you have the Church and Israel as separate entities with separate promises, separate outcomes and separate working relationships with God the Father.

My post was a refutation of that claim.

parousia70 said:

Ok, but you have the Church and Israel as separate entities with separate promises, separate outcomes and separate working relationships with God the Father.

My post was a refutation of that claim.

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Correct. The LORD has unfinished business with Israel. This would be the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy of Dan 9:24-27.
The Church is removed, the Holy Spirit is 'taken out of the way' and Rev chs 5-22 happen.

FaithfulPilgrim said:

I am finally delving further into eschatology. I consider myself a historic premillennialist as I didn't see a reason to divide the Second Coming into two stages.

However, I decided to examine let the pre-trib position objectively and fairly. I think the pre-trib people make lots of good points, but I'm still iffy about the rapture and the official Second Coming.

Does the verse below refute a pre-tribulation rapture?

"I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one." -John 17:15 (ESV)

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This verse is not referring to the rapture.

Pastor Chuck Smith says this about John 17 x at blueletterbible.org

"but that you should keep them from the world" (Jhn 17:15).

"Don't take them out, Father, but keep them from it." The Christian is like a ship which is made to float in the water. As long as it's floating in the water, it's alright. The only danger is when you get the water in the ship. The ship is to be in the water, but you get water in the ship and then you get into trouble. The Christian is made to live in the world. But you start getting the world in the Christian, you get into trouble, like getting water in the ship. You're going to sink. So, "Father, I don't ask You to take them out of the world, but do keep them from the world." What a beautiful prayer! God, keep me from the world. The pressures sometimes are so great to conform to the world, to the worldly patterns. We become accused of all kinds of things; but, Oh, God, keep us from the world.

They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. But sanctify them through thy truth (Jhn 17:16-17):

That is, "Separate them." And the word sanctify is to separate, to set apart. "Set them apart, Father, through Thy truth."

for thy word is truth (Jhn 17:17).