You're saying the scripture is wrong? I guess I misunderstood what you were trying to say.
The test of the truth is not the testimony of man, but the word of God. The word of God is inspired and infallible. Jesus said Heaven and Earth would pass away but His words would never pass away. When you say the scripture is wrong, you are incorrect.
Yes, I am saying the Scripture is wrong.
John says that once saved, Christians do not sin again.
But they do. All of them.
Ergo, John is wrong.
Jesus doesn't say that Christians never sin again. Rather, he speaks of how to obtain forgiveness from the sins one commits. He says that to be forgiven sin by God, you must forgive others their sins. Note that while Paul says that all you have to do is to believe in Jesus and his blood forgives, Jesus did not say that. So, Paul is wrong too (unless Jesus is).
Jesus said that to be forgiven your sins by God, you have to forgive others their sins. If you forgive, and to the extent you forgive, God forgives you, to the extent you forgive. It's straightforward and clear.
Peter asked Jesus: But how many TIMES do I have to forgive somebody, seven times? Jesus answered seventy-times-seven times.
Once again: a clear answer from Jesus.
Jesus' first rule: that to BE forgiven, by God, you MUST FORGIVE OTHERS is not wiped away by the cross. What Paul says seems to contradict it. Paul suggests that by believing in Jesus, his blood simply wipes away the sin. But JESUS said "What good does it do you to say you follow me if you do not keep my commandments.
So, there are two things in the Bible about forgiveness: a broad and easy path proposed by Paul - believe in Jesus and his blood washes free your sin, and then there is what Jesus ACTUALLY SAID, which is that God will NOT FORGIVE YOU your sins - regardless of Jesus' blood - if YOU don't forgive others THEIR sins against you. Period. THAT is the rule of God. And Jesus said that it does you no good to say you follow him and believe in him unless you OBEY him. So, the ONLY WAY to be forgiven your sins is to forgive. Period. Jesus said one thing, Paul said something else. Jesus trumps Paul, because Jesus is God and Paul isn't. That means that yes, the Bible is WRONG, if Paul is taken as the last word.
Now, there IS a way to read Paul that works, but it involves interpreting Paul towards Jesus. If you forgive, God forgives you, BECAUSE OF the blood of Jesus. Ok. (That is why Vatican 2 comes out where it does.) But simply believing something about Jesus will not result in the forgiveness of sins. You have to DO something: forgive others their sins. And yes, that is indeed an act - a WORK. Jesus says you have to perform a series of WORKS: forgiving other people their sins, or else God will not forgive you yours. Once again, Paul seems to be at odds with Jesus. And once again, if Paul is read that way, then Paul is wrong and there is yet another error in the Bible.
The ONLY WAY to be forgiven your sins is to forgive others. Do that, and Jesus' blood will be effective. Refuse to do that, and Jesus said that it isn't going to do any good to say you follow him, because you didn't do what he said (forgive).
John says that if you follow Jesus, you never sin again. But Jesus speaks to the Churches in Asia Minor, in Revelation, and he admonishes them for the sins they have fallen back into after having come to him and after their initial seal. Jesus stands ready to forgive them: Seventy-times-seven - but the assertion that they HAVEN'T sinned again, or don't, or can't, if they're REAL Christians - what John said: that is wrong, and absurd, and contrary to what Jesus said.
Three errors in the epistles. Three things that contradict Jesus.
Here's a fourth error in the Bible. James said that if you break one rule of the law, you're broken them all. Jesus never said any such thing. In fact, Jesus spoke clearly of greater and lesser commandments. So no, if you have broken a rule on being unclean, you have NOT done the same thing as committing murder. It's simply not true. Jesus said it's not true. James is making a point, but in making that point he grossly overstates the case and writes something that is not true.
Four passages from three Apostles in the Bible that contradict Jesus in some way, and that are used at the foundations of various doctrines and preached as foundational by some.
Paul himself wrote of this tendency when he asked if there was a Gospel of Paul and a Gospel of Apollos. Paul rightly answered his question: No.
So, we can disregard the hyperbole in Paul, James and John, where they wrote things that are objectively untrue because they directly contradict Jesus. We can grant the Apostle writers literary license and disregard their excesses.
What we CANNOT rightly do is take something an apostle wrote and use that to OVERRIDE what Jesus said. No, faith does NOT forgive sin by itself. Jesus said that you have to actually forgive others, or you're NOT forgiven your sins by God. And that means that Jesus said you have to perform several works. Yes, Christians DO sin again. And no, break one tiny law, you've broken them all.
"But BIBLE!" Yes, these four voices in the Bible: Jesus, Paul, James and John, DO conflict somewhat. So what do we do? We listen to God Almighty, the Father, speaking from Heaven saying: THIS is my beloved Son, listen to HIM.
And we read Jesus as the final word, and disregard the conflicting statements of John (which we tested in this thread and found that no, not one Christian could come forward and aver that he had never sinned again after he came to Jesus). And we recognise, per Jesus, that we're not forgiven our sins unless we perform a work: forgiving others theirs (sorry, Paul, at least THAT work is necessary for salvation - Jesus said so, and he trumps you).
And - faced with the clear exposition of three conflicts in the Scripture, between Jesus and three different Apostles - we acknowledge that JESUS is Lord, follow him, and discard doctrines based on words that contradict him.
It requires a change of Spirit. No, the Bible is not God. Jesus in the Bible is God. God tells you that. "Listen to HIM." He says "Follow ME". So stop arguing with me and go do it!
