Dispensationalism is not new

Biblewriter said:

EVERYONE has already broken the law. The Holy Spirit’s point in this passage was that if you put yourself under the law, you make yourself responsible to obey ALL of it, without a single exception. So if you have EVER broken EVEN ONE commandment, the law condemns you. The law does not contain even the concept of “trying to obey it.” It demands perfect obedience, without exception. And it provides no remission whatsoever without a blood sacrifice. If you cannot offer a blood sacrifice you cannot be pardoned. Remember that when you desire to go back to the law.

Click to expand...

When we break any law and become a lawbreaker, then we need to repent and return to obedience, which is exactly what James was encouraging them to do in that passage. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that His Law is not too difficult to obey, that obedience brings life and a blessing, and that disobedience brings death and a curse, and Romans 10:4-10 quotes that passage in regard to what our faith says, so it is presented as a choice and something that is possible to do by faith, not as an impossibility where the Law was given to curse us. If you want to insist that the Law demands perfect obedience for some strange reason, then please explain how what I said was wrong.

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is revealed through God's Law. Gentiles are either under God's Law and are obligated to refrain from sin and are not under God's Law, have no obligation to refrain from sin, and have never needed Jesus to give himself to redeem them from all Lawlessness.

However, God is God, so all Gentiles are under God's Law and are obligated to obey it and to refrain from sin regardless of whether or not they are in a covenant relationship with Him. For example, God judged the world the the Flood for their sins, God will judge the world in Revelation, God threatened to judge Nineveh, and God judged Sodom and Gomorrah for their Lawless deeds (2 Peter 2:6-8). They didn't get a choice of whether or not they wanted to be under God's Law and neither do you. The choice that you do get to make is whether or not you are going to repent and obey by faith.

Soyeong said:

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is revealed through God's Law. Gentiles are either under God's Law and are obligated to refrain from sin and are not under God's Law, have no obligation to refrain from sin, and have never needed Jesus to give himself to redeem them from all Lawlessness.

Click to expand...

Based on the words of Christ found below, the New covenant is a higher standard, than the Old Covenant. Not for our salvation, but for our conduct.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


In Hebrews 12:18-24, we are not come to the mountain that burns with fire. (Sinai)
But instead, to the New Covenant of Mount Sion.

In Galatians 4:24-31 Paul compels the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".

In Hebrews 8:13 we find that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".

.

Agree, and it also depends on how one properly understands "law" "trust" "grace" and most importantly LOVE as God's Providential Care and Instruction throughout history (dispensations) ...
Perhaps, there is some misunderstanding/confusion on the definition of "Dispensationalism" ...

AbbaLove said:

Again, these dispensations are not paths to salvation, but manners in which God relates to man.

Click to expand...

The part in blue is where dispensationalism veers off-track.

Your overall post,however, was very informative. But there is no justification for the existence of the doctrine of dispensationalism. It just becomes something more to argue over.

When Abraham found favor in God's eye, it was because of Abraham's faith. Not because it happened during any so-called dispensation.

Please, do not take my post as any sort of personal criticism.

Douggg said:

The part in blue is where dispensationalism veers off-track.

Click to expand...

The part which declares that there are Two Separate Peoples of God is where the doctrine veers off track.

The claim that modern Jews will eventually come to salvation outside of the Church is one of the most unBiblical aspects of the doctrine.

.

BABerean2 said:

The part which declares that there are Two Separate Peoples of God is where the doctrine veers off track.

Click to expand...

"Dispensationalists believe that salvation has always been by grace through faith alone—in God in the Old Testament and specifically in God the Son in the New Testament."

Do you not acknowledge the above statement made in post #25?

What you disagree with is dispensationalism's position that the church and Israel are distinct entities, but are expressing it in a cloaked manner, saying Two Separate Peoples of God.

That the church and Israel are distinct entities is totally biblical.

The claim that modern Jews will eventually come to salvation outside of the Church is one of the most unBiblical aspects of the doctrine.

Click to expand...

There is no salvation apart from Jesus.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Douggg said:

That the church and Israel are distinct entities is totally biblical.

Click to expand...

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.


Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED."
Rom 9:26 "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."
Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.


Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 "LORD, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS AND TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY SEEK MY LIFE"?
Rom 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I HAVE RESERVED FOR MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

.

Biblewriter said:

Your claim that dispensationalists teach "that modern Jews will eventually come to salvation outside of the Church" is one of the most dishonest of all the false accusations you make against dispensationalism.

It is dishonest because, and specifically because, it is an intentional attempt to make it sound like dispensationalists teach that modern Jews can be saved without trusting in Jesus as their savior.

You know that we do not teach this, yet you keep trying to make is seem that we do. So this is a willful attempt to deceive.

I have called you out on this several times, but you maintain your blatant dishonesty in this matter.

Click to expand...

The New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ is made up of all individuals who have placed their faith in the finished work of Christ at Calvary.
To claim that modern Jews will come to salvation and not be a part of the Church is the type of logic that exposes modern Dispensational Theology for what it really is.

It is Dispensationalists who claim the "Church Age" ends 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.
Yes, or no?

It is Dispensationalists who claim the Church will be removed from the planet 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.
Yes, or no?

It is Dispensationalists who often infer that the modern Church is a "Gentile Church", instead of a Church made up of all races of people.
Yes, or no?

Who is being dishonest about what Dispensationalists actually teach?

.

Douggg said:

That the church and Israel are distinct entities is totally biblical.

Click to expand...

Which of those "distinct entities" would you say these people belong to?
(Acts 2:41)
Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

They were Israel, and they were the Church, at the same time, no?

Biblewriter said:

Our difference of opinion on this detail is not some great fundamental question, as you falsely pretend. But simply a difference of opinion about the technical meaning of the Greek word "ekklesia," as it is used in the New Testament. This is the Greek word which is translated as "church" in our English versions of the New Testament. You think it means anyone that will ever trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as his or her Savior. We think that this specific word only means anyone who does this before the time of the rapture.

You are thoroughly aware that this is the ENTIRETY of the difference in our opinions on this subject. So it is basically and essentially dishonest for you to pretend that this is some kind of a fundamental issue.

Click to expand...

The interpretation of the word "church" is not a minor issue.
If you have to change the meaning of that Greek word to make your doctrine work, you have exposed the doctrine for what it really is.

That word is found in Hebrews 12:22-24, and reveals the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 applies directly to the Body of Christ.
This is confirmed by Hebrews 8:6-13.
Anyone who must say otherwise to make their doctrine work, is the one not being honest.

.

Biblewriter said:

Anyone who imagines that the definition of this word is a fundamental issue does not even understand what constitutes fundamental doctrine.

Click to expand...

Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

.