The problem of Objective Morality. and why even biblical speaking it is subjective

yeshuaslavejeff said:

All men are liars.

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If so, then you are a liar and I reject whatever you say.

Tinker Grey said:

If so, then you are a liar and I reject whatever you say.

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Good IF you reject all that all men say,

until proven truth. Do not accept anything, not even your own words, until and unless proven true in line with all God's Word.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Good IF you reject all that all men say,

until proven truth. Do not accept anything, not even your own words, until and unless proven true in line with all God's Word.

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Don’t Biblical scholars says the Bible was written by men?

ToddNotTodd said:

Don’t Biblical scholars says the Bible was written by men?

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Luke 10:21
Study Bible
Jesus' Prayer of Thanksgiving
20Nevertheless, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” 21At that time,

Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have
hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in Your sight. 22 All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father.

No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.”…
Berean Study Bible · Download

ToddNotTodd said:

By letting them know they’re wrong “to me” instead of universally wrong.

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Then would you say that you're right to lecture anyone on moral philosophy is no more valid than anyone else? Seeing how you are only voicing your opinion with a "to me" statement.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Luke 10:21
Study Bible
Jesus' Prayer of Thanksgiving
20Nevertheless, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” 21At that time,

Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have
hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in Your sight. 22 All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father.

No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.”…
Berean Study Bible · Download

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That was a yes or no question...

ToddNotTodd said:

That was a yes or no question...

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THe answer was pretty straightforward - and better than yes or no could be-
since Yahweh hides salvation from scholars,
"it doesn't matter"

jason_delisle said:

Then would you say that you're right to lecture anyone on moral philosophy is no more valid than anyone else? Seeing how you are only voicing your opinion with a "to me" statement.

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Yes and no. If the person has a different moral philosophy than me, then yes, there’s no point in “lecturing” them.

If they have the same basic philosophy, then you can have a meaningful conversation, since within a subjective system you can have objective statements.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

THe answer was pretty straightforward - and better than yes or no could be-
since Yahweh hides salvation from scholars,
"it doesn't matter"

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I’ll take that as “I don’t know”, in lieu of an actual answer...

ToddNotTodd said:

Yes and no. If the person has a different moral philosophy than me, then yes, there’s no point in “lecturing” them.

If they have the same basic philosophy, then you can have a meaningful conversation, since within a subjective system you can have objective statements.

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I think that's a fair statement. Perhaps you can explain it to Manchild better than I can. Thank you.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

This was one of two things needed to ever know the truth.

All men are liars. Had to accept this, or never would have made it.

God is faithful and true, only God can save anyone. Gladly received this Word , and it has made all the difference all my life !


After knowing that all men are liars, it becomes possible to learn the truth. Not necessary (even God will not force you), but at least possible. As even the Apostles said, whatever you are told, even if by an Apostle, or a so-called angel of LIGHT, TEST EVERYTHING ! TEST< TEST< TEST

and then, IF you care to seek the Truth, and keep seeking the Truth, you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free ...... (from religion, finance, warfare, violence, the devil, the flesh, the world's power over you, all deception)

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Your problem is; you are convinced the truth leads to your idea of God; I'm saying it does not.

jason_delisle said:

I think that's a fair statement. Perhaps you can explain it to Manchild better than I can. Thank you.

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Don't worry about me. I am the least of your problems.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Good IF you reject all that all men say,

until proven truth. Do not accept anything, not even your own words, until and unless proven true in line with all God's Word.

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You were doing so well, until these last six words.

You don't have 'God's word'. You don't even have a means of determining that 'God's word' exists in the first place. Nor a means of gleaning what it is, even if it exists. Nor any reason why it must necessarily be adopted as the truth, even if it exists and you can glean what it is.

As such, you have no business calling 'God's word' the truth. Truth is demonstrable, and coherently defined. What you have is neither.

Eight Foot Manchild said:

You were doing so well, until these last six words.

You don't have 'God's word'. You don't even have a means of determining that 'God's word' exists in the first place. Nor a means of gleaning what it is, even if it exists. Nor any reason why it must necessarily be adopted as the truth, even if it exists and you can glean what it is.

As such, you have no business calling 'God's word' the truth. Truth is demonstrable, and coherently defined. What you have is neither.

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Can you demonstrate and coherently define how the Moabite women were raped by their Israelite captors? Or that rape being "wrong" is anything more than just the subjective "to me" opinion of the majority who declared it to be so? I figure that question is going to remain a mystery like the number of licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop.

Eight Foot Manchild said:

Don't worry about me. I am the least of your problems.

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Sure. I don't have any butter pecan ice cream. That is a problem.

jason_delisle said:

Can you demonstrate and coherently define how the Moabite women were raped by their Israelite captors?

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I take it you mean the Midianites, not the Moabites, since that's what we were talking about.

And once again, you already did. You said their other choice was starvation. Hence, coercion. Hence, rape.

jason_delisle said:

Or that rape being "wrong" is anything more than just the subjective "to me" opinion of the majority who declared it to be so?

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This is a loaded question, but I can still make some use of it.

Harm is objectively quantifiable. Rape is demonstrably harmful. Therefor, rape is objectively and demonstrably harmful. That is one standard I use to judge the moral character - 'rightness' or 'wrongness', if you like - of an action.

As to whether that standard is valued, that is necessarily subjective, as are all value judgements. And appealing to Yahweh does not magically make them objective. Just another reason why he is utterly irrelevant to my moral philosophy, whether he exists or not.

But I don't even need to go there, really. Suppose my only answer to the question was, 'all I have is the opinion of the majority.'

There is no criticism you could make of that position that does not equally apply to you. All you have is the opinion of men purporting to speak on behalf of Yahweh.

Even if you did have direct access to Yahweh's opinion, you still couldn't show that it necessarily ought to be adopted.

Hey, there's another reason Yahweh is irrelevant.

EDIT: Also, why are you even pretending that behavior is at all relevant to Christian moral philosophy? I could spend my entire life as a serial rapist, have a deathbed conversion and go on to an eternal reward. Conversely, I could spend my entire life as an atheist philanthropist while volunteering for suicide hotlines and soup kitchens, adopting unwanted children, etc., and go to an eternity in hell. Behavior is utterly irrelevant.

Eight Foot Manchild said:

and go to an eternity in hell. Behavior is utterly irrelevant.

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1 Corinthians 6
Study Bible
…9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. ......
Berean Study Bible · Download

============
Revelation 21:6-8 New International Version (NIV)
6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

New International Version (NIV)
Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

Ken-1122 said:

Care to give an example of something objectively true that does change?

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Everything changes.

Stars a are born.
People grow old and die.
Fall become winter.
All these things are objective, and always in flux.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Yahweh never changes.
He never changes....

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Thats a matter of faith and not objectively true..... even if it actually true.

Ed1wolf said:

Glad you agree. I have provided some of the evidence on this thread.

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